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APRIL 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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16 hours ago, Hayabusa said:

If I'm going anywhere with this, my question would be- What drew you in when you got into following wrestling weekly, that you had to watch and just couldn't miss the next week? 

I saw a Mr Perfect vignette and couldn't believe how good he was at all sports because I was six. Had to see him wrestle the next week and it grew from there.

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35 minutes ago, Morganti said:

Even RVD talks about why he should have never been the champ.

Hell, RVD *PROVED* why he shouldn't have been champ when he finally did get the belt.

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6 hours ago, MORELOCK said:


It's extraordinarily petty how wrestling fans target wrestling personalities they don't like and try to strip away any possible credit they could be given for literally anything.

Triple H worked very hard to build NXT, and performed the miracle of keeping Vince from ruining it in the process. No one deserves more credit for NXT than Triple H. You don't have to like his matches or the way the BASTARD just WOULDN'T PUT RVD OVER for this to be true.

He also built NXT UK, and worked very hard to ensure that Progress and ICW were ruined in the process. Doing as much collateral damage as possible to Rev Pro, OTT, Defiant, Southside and many others along the way.

As far as not putting RVD over, give me five good reasons Booker T lost to H at Mania.

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2 minutes ago, AxB said:

He also built NXT UK, and worked very hard to ensure that Progress and ICW were ruined in the process. Doing as much collateral damage as possible to Rev Pro, OTT, Defiant, Southside and many others along the way.

I keep reading people say this, but no one really explains how and why and I've always seen it as someone getting annoyed WWE signed their favorite indy wrestlers and everyone just repeating the same opinion, but that maybe not be the case.

He built NXT UK, but he's allowed the contracted wrestlers take many indy dates for the same promotions you mentioned. I know WALTER and Dunne have both defended the NXT UK title in various indys, so that's a help. WALTER has even worked for Big Japan.

I'm not entirely in loop as to all of the details, but would love to read as to how exactly did he ruin these indys in the process.

Was it because he signed the best names available and they couldn't complete all of their bookings because they had to attend TV tapings or is it because of something else that isn't public knowledge?

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7 minutes ago, AxB said:

He also built NXT UK, and worked very hard to ensure that Progress and ICW were ruined in the process. Doing as much collateral damage as possible to Rev Pro, OTT, Defiant, Southside and many others along the way.

As far as not putting RVD over, give me five good reasons Booker T lost to H at Mania.

01. It was probably Vince's decision.  Even without as much clout as he has, I'd imagine Vince still has final say.  As dumb as the build/feud and outcome was, Triple H was working pretty hard to make himself the heel here.  I mean there aren't many wrestlers in the modern era who would let themselves to be booked as, well, "racist" in order to play the heel.  Everything about the way he worked toward WM points to Triple H putting him over, are we sure this wasn't a last minute Vince decision a la Lesnar over Reigns a few years back?

02. Goldberg was coming in, likely with a promised world title and they felt (rightly or wrongly) that Goldberg-Triple H was a bigger match rather than Booker T-Goldberg which was too WCW-y and presumably had happened before.  In WWE's eyes, Goldberg-HHH is more of a "Dream match" than Booker T-Triple H.

03. Booker was likely dealing with an ongoing injury that had WWE concerned about him working a world champ's schedule, seeing as he was out from July/August until October with a back injury.

04. Booker T's feud with Triple H was born of an Evolution beatdown of Goldust, and we all know how Vince feels about his faces having friends.

05. If Booker had won the title, he likely wouldn't have been traded to Smackdown a  year later, likely negating his heel turn which would have meant he never would have become King Booker which was unquestionably the best part of his WWE career so we would all have been the worse for it.

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15 minutes ago, Edwin said:

I'm not entirely in loop as to all of the details, but would love to read as to how exactly did he ruin these indys in the process.

Was it because he signed the best names available and they couldn't complete all of their bookings because they had to attend TV tapings or is it because of something else that isn't public knowledge?

The WWE contracted guys couldn't appear on most/any broadcasts for the indiy companies so they could book them and have them have matches for the live crowds but they couldn't use them for streaming shows so they couldn't really use them to book any storylines.

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The right way to do that match is to have Nia be the one taking a powder or selling outside and only coming in for giant spots here and there with Shayna being the one to beat Nia.

What we'll wind up with is Shayna or Asuka being the one often selling on the outside while Nia works the bulk of the match. Here's to hoping my cynicism is wrong.

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45 minutes ago, Sublime said:

The WWE contracted guys couldn't appear on most/any broadcasts for the indiy companies so they could book them and have them have matches for the live crowds but they couldn't use them for streaming shows so they couldn't really use them to book any storylines.

I recall PROGRESS booking an extensive Dunne heel angle when he was the NXT UK and PROGRESS dual champ and he was winning his matches with the Pedigree and I know Dunne defended the NXT UK title as a surprise at one of the year end final shows against Gallagher.

Also WALTER/Bate headlined that one big PROGRESS show.

Moustache Mountain, Ohno, Lorcan, WALTER, Dunne, etc. have worked endless indy shows with their matches being streamed on the companies own streaming services.

I know years ago we got an Adam Cole NXT NA title defense against WALTER in EVOLVE and a handful of matches feat. NXT signees on indy shows not being broadcasted anywhere, but they eased up on that within a few months and they were actually sending folks who didn't get TV time to gain experience working smaller shows.

Edited by Edwin
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18 hours ago, Hayabusa said:

 

If I'm going anywhere with this, my question would be- What drew you in when you got into following wrestling weekly, that you had to watch and just couldn't miss the next week? 

I probably started watching pro wrestling sitting on my dad's lap as a toddler. It's been a part of my life for pretty much as far as I can remember.

My first vivid WWF memory is Andre getting his hair cut by Studd and Patera. My first vivid NWA/JCP memory is Magnum vs Wahoo in a cage for the US title on World Wide Wrestling...although I have hazy memories of JCP on tv in Toronto.

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5 minutes ago, Edwin said:

I recall PROGRESS booking an extensive Dunne heel angle when he was the NXT UK and PROGRESS dual champ and he was winning his matches with the Pedigree and I know Dunne defended the NXT UK title as a surprise at one of the year end final shows against Gallagher.

Also WALTER/Bate headlined that one big PROGRESS show.

Moustache Mountain, Ohno, Lorcan, WALTER, Dunne, etc. have worked endless indy shows with their matches being streamed on the companies own streaming services.

I know years ago we got an Adam Cole NXT NA title defense against WALTER in EVOLVE and a handful of matches feat. NXT signees on indy shows not being broadcasted anywhere, but they eased up on that within a few months and they were actually sending folks who didn't get TV time to gain experience working smaller shows.

Ok, I had heard that there wasn't any WWE signed guys on TV (which makes sense on paper) and have no memory of that happening, but I haven't really watched any thing but NJPW in nearly two years so I was just going with what was in my head.

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I'm not trying to defend Triple H or NXT or whatever, but I just want someone who follows the UK scene closely to elaborate instead of just blaming WWE/Triple H/NXT/whoever for whatever it is they feel happened to their scene.

Whenever I read people make the same comment I first quoted, I just get the impression they are mad their faves signed with the evil empire and they won't be used how they wish they would.

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Tyler Bate is currently one half of the OTT tag team champions. His last title defence was in 2018.

Every time OTT tries to book him, either he can't do it right away, or he can do it right up until WWE cancel him off it the week of.

TNT Hardcore in Liverpool, their February show was scheduled to have the Grizzled Young Veterans headlining, in their final indie appearance before going full time WWE. They were pulled from the show four days before it happened.

Defiant was on the non-favoured promotions list and so couldn't use any WWE contracted talent. Southside had been on the favoured promotions list and frequently were continuing to use their previous established roster, despite half of them being under WWE contract. Then, a week before their biggest show of 2019, WWE unfavoured them and pulled all their contracted independent contractors.

Besides which, Progress Hello Wembley is on YouTube. Watch it. Look at how big the crowd is, listen to how excited they are. Now watch some NXT UK tv shows and look at all the empty chairs. It's basically the same roster of talent... NXT UK's last set of tapings with Finn Balor is arguably a higher level of star power than Progress Wembley. But the Coventry Skydome was two thirds empty. The FWA used to sell that building out two decades ago with Alex Shane as the top babyface!

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16 minutes ago, Edwin said:

I'm not trying to defend Triple H or NXT or whatever, but I just want someone who follows the UK scene closely to elaborate instead of just blaming WWE/Triple H/NXT/whoever for whatever it is they feel happened to their scene.

Whenever I read people make the same comment I first quoted, I just get the impression they are mad their faves signed with the evil empire and they won't be used how they wish they would.

This is more less the feel I get. Whenever it comes up people get pissy about WWE ruining the scene but never give solid examples as to how. From what I've heard the scene is definitely damaged, but I'm not sure how much that is a case of WWE actively creating issues and how much of it is fans getting pissy and refusing to watch as a result of WWE's involvement in the scene.

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There's also the question that the resurgance of the scene itself was mostly smoke and mirrors with guys just aping "Super Match Era" PWG with faster diminishing returns.

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3 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Also my only comment about HHH is that I loved it whenever he wrestled Foley. H was the stooge, Foley was the beater, it was peanut butter and jelly. 

This is actually a great topic:

Who is one guy you normally wouldn't care about watching EXCEPT when they wrestle that one perfect opponent.

I'll admit to not being that high on Christian, but when he got in the ring with Randy Orton it was always awesome and it's something I wish we got more of over the years.

I feel the same with Strowman and Reigns. Braun is just a big guy to me, but when he gets to beat the piss out of Roman and they brawl all over the building it's get my full attention.

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There was a point where Sheamus and Big Show were both channel changers for me, but when they would work with each other it was usually excellent. 

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3 hours ago, caley said:

01. It was probably Vince's decision.  Even without as much clout as he has, I'd imagine Vince still has final say.  As dumb as the build/feud and outcome was, Triple H was working pretty hard to make himself the heel here.  I mean there aren't many wrestlers in the modern era who would let themselves to be booked as, well, "racist" in order to play the heel.  Everything about the way he worked toward WM points to Triple H putting him over, are we sure this wasn't a last minute Vince decision a la Lesnar over Reigns a few years back?

02. Goldberg was coming in, likely with a promised world title and they felt (rightly or wrongly) that Goldberg-Triple H was a bigger match rather than Booker T-Goldberg which was too WCW-y and presumably had happened before.  In WWE's eyes, Goldberg-HHH is more of a "Dream match" than Booker T-Triple H.

03. Booker was likely dealing with an ongoing injury that had WWE concerned about him working a world champ's schedule, seeing as he was out from July/August until October with a back injury.

04. Booker T's feud with Triple H was born of an Evolution beatdown of Goldust, and we all know how Vince feels about his faces having friends.

05. If Booker had won the title, he likely wouldn't have been traded to Smackdown a  year later, likely negating his heel turn which would have meant he never would have become King Booker which was unquestionably the best part of his WWE career so we would all have been the worse for it.

For most of these reasons, I would add an extra reason:

06. In 2002/03, Booker T's WWE run had basically seen him as half of a comedy team with Goldust. The Booker T/Goldust team was really fun and one of the rare comedy things WWE has done that was genuinely funny, and it worked...but Booker T and Goldust were a comedy team for most of that time. Even if you use Daniel Bryan in Team Hell No as an example there of "well, this comedy act won the World Title, why not that one?"- Daniel Bryan and Kane were a comedy act in 2012, and it wasn't until a year later when most of the clown had been killed before Bryan ascended to the top. Heck, Team Hell No even were better for the role even by kayfabe standards; it was a plot point during that 2002/03 run that Booker T and Goldust had problems winning the big one even in a weak tag team division (with just before the Evolution feud, a large part of the storyline involved the team may have been not good enough to win the Tag Titles.) 

Even if you consider "well, Booker T and Goldust's stuff in 2002 was one of the biggest bright spots on the show" as an excuse for Booker T to have a Santino Marella-esque 2011 Royal Rumble or 2012 Elimination Chamber finalist main event shocker...or more relevantly, Kofi Kingston winning it all last year at Wrestlemania, the fact Booker T and Goldust's comedy run was exclusive to 2002 meant you didn't even have the longterm staying power and cult following Santino got, or The New Day's longterm staying power, incredible popularity, and Kofi's being a longtime veteran ready to win the big one."

Booker T winning the WHC in 2003 would have been less like Daniel Bryan winning in 2014, or even Santino winning a World Title or Kofi winning the World Title, and would have been closer to  "R-Truth's gotten so many 24/7 Title reigns and has done good stuff for it...why don't we make him the World Champion?"

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If you're comparing Booker getting organically hot off of what was supposed to originally be a comedy tag team that then somehow turned into a sweet angle where Goldust let Booker go from the team because Goldy thought that Booker could do better to R-Truth being a funny 24/7 title holder, you've already lost the plot entirely. Santino winning in whatever year that was that they teased it is like R-Truth winning the title in 2020 - two comedy workers who did so well with their comedy spots in the midcard that the crowd would be into a fluke WWE Championship win for those guys for a hot minute.

And no, Booker winning the WHC in 2003 and Kofi winning in 2018 or whatever year it was are not the same in that Booker took only about a year after basically being the whipping boy in various Invasion-era feuds to end up getting over enough to realistically carry the WHC, whereas Kofi (who is a guy that I genuinely like) is nowhere near Booker in terms of ability to get himself over. He's over because he's with his boys, Woods (the better talker) and Big E (the better worker). 

Jesus Christ, just no. 

Booker is not a super-worker, but he's a guy who has had good matches with super-workers, and he's not a transcendent guy on the mic, but he's had great promos or vignettes with good-to-great mic workers. He's not a guy you put the WWF Championship on in 1987, but he's definitely a guy you could put the fucking WHC on in 2003 and it would be perfectly fine. 

I think Booker's gone to being underrated at this point. He was sort of overrated in the late '90s because he was a WCW original and WCW fans sort of talked him up because of that (though he had a bunch of fun TV matches once Stevie Ray got hurt and Booker won the TV title, and he was typically good for at least a fun match if he was wrestling). At this point, though, no one really talks him up because he doesn't have many (any?) all-time great matches. He's just consistently good, with facial expressions and the ability to show emotion through body language that is very good.

Comparing him to fucking R-Truth and Santino, what the fuck, people. 

Edited by Smelly McUgly
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1 hour ago, L_W_P said:

This is actually a great topic:

Who is one guy you normally wouldn't care about watching EXCEPT when they wrestle that one perfect opponent.

Show, w/ Lesnar.  Watching Lesnar throw that big ape around like a pillow, and Show unloading offense that's usually off limits ... sweet af.

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