The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 hours ago, hammerva said:

Assuming that the JYD story in New Orleans with the gun is true, that is a hell of what if from Bill Watts.   I mean Watts has fired people who broke kayfabe for a lot worse.  But even if you are trying to pretend to be blind, maybe letting people know about a gun pointed at the ring isn't the worse thing.   Luckily the cops were probably expecting that shit

By the way is there any footage of the JYD vs Michael Hayes feud that wasn't the actual blinding angle?  Probably some promos out there but as far as matches I can't think of any

Also like the narrative that JYD joined WCW while Bill Watts was running things.  I mean he was there for a good 2 years before Bill.   Although the point of him of being a complete mess then was true.  

Hell, I have been trying to find the actual tag match (w/ JYD tagging with Buck Robley IIRC) outside of the hair removal cream spot.

Anyway, this episode in particular hits home for me in particular because I remember the precise moment when I found out JYD had passed. I was home for the summer cleaning up my room with my mom, and she always had the radio on listening to whatever old black gospel music (which I happen to enjoy as well btw). I go get my fitted sheet out of the dryer and come back into the room, and the news break between songs comes on. They do some quick news rundown for the day and then finish off with the news that pro wrestler Sylvester Ritter better known as the Junkyard Dog has passed away in a single passenger car accident in Forest, Mississippi. He was 45. The next 5-10 maybe 15 minutes I still don't remember what happened next to this very day. It was like I was in a damn fog or I went into autopilot. All I know is my entire room was clean as whistle maybe an hour or so later.

Besides maybe Owen's untimely passing and sort of the obvious in 2007, the former which I described on this board not too long ago, I don't remember the news of a wrestler's passing affecting me like that. Hell, I don't have too many out of body experiences like that when folks who are not wrestlers like friends or family pass. Shit, imagine if I was old enough to see JYD in his prime...I probably would passed the fuck out.

Maybe that speaks to the power of ethnic draws in pro wrestling and especially boxing. Having grown up in a rural and very poor African-American area of the deep South and not having that many heroes who look like me to look up to, having a Junkyard Dog filled a void that maybe a Michael Jordan (although I remember the final shot in the 1998 NBA Finals even more vividly than the above) or a Jerry Rice who was from my very neck of the woods could not do. Maybe Tyson or Roy Jones Jr. but my late 80s/90s wrestling fandom absolutely dwarfed my boxing fandom. It couldn't compare.

I also want to say that as much shit (and probably right so) that Tony Atlas gets from his black contemporaries, I thought he did well on this episode. Koko and Teddy too, of course. Even though Tony made sure to couch it at the end with "...but it wasn't racism", you couldn't ask for better participation from him. It does get me wondering though especially with the shot of the Mississippi Coliseum in Jackson (we call it strangely enough "The Big House" despite being a 6500 seater) early on in the episode if there was room for a territory before the territories collapsed for a black ran promotion based out a Jackson or New Orleans or another city along those lines with a large black population. I say that because (1) Ladd would have been a perfect candidate to run it based on clear intelligence shown in this episode as well as the stories about his booking expertise and know how; and (2) having lived in a town situated closed to both Memphis and a little more down the road the state capital those are tiny little entertainment hubs that won't get the same treatment as the biggest cities. However, they have tremendous cultural power. Nobody in the mainstream was looking out for Master P/No Limit, Cash Money, Goodie Mob, the Geto Boys, Mr. Bigg, Lil Boosie, UGK, Three Six Mafia UNTIL black people from those areas made them into stars that couldn't be ignored. They were able to survive off of income made strictly from the black community, which as already stated mostly if not all from a very downtrodden and economically depraved part of the country. Bill Watts basically got a lottery ticket. He wasn't going to be able to replicate it. JYD was the Stagger Lee mythos come to life that spoke to the hearts and minds of black people just as all those artists I mentioned once did and still do in some cases. I can be objective and say I think both Watts and JYD overplayed their hand. JYD because he clearly got out of shape and not really giving a shit. Watts for believing that it could be done again out of a sheer (white) ignorance. I mean Mid South did well between JYD's departure and the oil business going bust, but to have that type of figure as your number one attraction is immeasurable. I compare it to Stone Cold's effect on the working middle class who couldn't communicate their feelings to their bosses or to other every day people or were just in general people who were imbued with this rebel spirit. Stone Cold Steve Austin weighing 252 lbs from Victoria, Texas was going to have more fire and spark to ignite something than bland ass Stunning Steve Austin from Hollywood, CA, which was done for everyone from John Tatum to Bob Holly. As a black person and a black male of a young age, Dog was the man even when he was not the same Dog in WWF. If there was a territory ran by an Ernie Ladd or someone of that ilk, I think it would have opened a lot of doors that would eventually take several years to get opened up (or STILL haven't been opened). Black wrestlers weren't going to get the equality that they deserved. Probably on the bank account end, which to many folks is the only thing real in pro wrestling outside of the miles. However, definitely not on the overall treatment end. I mean it's been super easy to dismiss folks as either crazy and paranoid (Ahmed), trying to fuck up a territory or two (Thunderbolt Patterson), or everything altogether bad stereotyped about African-Americans (New Jack) to try to discredit their experiences as black wrestlers or performers. Multiple things can be true. You can still have flaws and huge shortcomings and still speak power to truth. That's why I don't discount a Tony Atlas even if he may say or has said some silly shit from time to time. You have to take everything into evidence.

[BrianS81177]

My grandpa's favorite wrestler was JYD. I remember watching Clash of the Champions with him when they did JYD vs Flair, he was so certain JYD would win the title and was so upset when it didn't happen. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

9 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Black wrestlers weren't going to get the equality that they deserved. Probably on the bank account end, which to many folks is the only thing real in pro wrestling outside of the miles. However, definitely not on the overall treatment end. I mean it's been super easy to dismiss folks as either crazy and paranoid (Ahmed), trying to fuck up a territory or two (Thunderbolt Patterson), or everything altogether bad stereotyped about African-Americans (New Jack) to try to discredit their experiences as black wrestlers or performers. Multiple things can be true. You can still have flaws and huge shortcomings and still speak power to truth. That's why I don't discount a Tony Atlas even if he may say or has said some silly shit from time to time. You have to take everything into evidence.

I can't say I blame any Black wrestler for having struggles considering how Black wrestlers were often treated as a commodity throughout their careers. There was no safety net for quite a few of them, especially in the territory days, because a lot of territories only booked one Black wrestler (you could book two, but they had to be a team!) and would wait until they finished that wrestler up before bringing in the next one - if they brought one in at all! I can see how that would wear on people emotionally.

I can even understand Tony Atlas' stance somewhat, because folks like Japanese wrestlers or Samoan wrestlers or English wrestlers were similarly placed as commodities. It's still weak reasoning but I can understand why he feels that way. That doesn't change how it looks to others, or why so many careers were altered by booking it that way, or why if it only applies to mostly people of color it's, well... racism.

I've always felt that one of wrestling's greatest shames is that Black wrestlers and women were sideshows and are really only just now starting to scratch the surface on what they can do. There's still so much that can be done.

[Mister TV]

These shows really make me dislike Jim Ross even more than I did before, his whole spiel on JYD leaving Mid-South and how could he do that to poor Bill Watts was gross. He was acting like the Dog was the first wrestler to move to a high paying territory, that had been happening since the 50's, and it's not like Watts would have kept JYD around and paid him that much if attendance started to go down.

[Technico Support]

23 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

These shows really make me dislike Jim Ross even more than I did before, his whole spiel on JYD leaving Mid-South and how could he do that to poor Bill Watts was gross. He was acting like the Dog was the first wrestler to move to a high paying territory, that had been happening since the 50's, and it's not like Watts would have kept JYD around and paid him that much if attendance started to go down.

 

THIS.  "Labor owes something to ownership" mixed with your standard racism to make something especially gross.  Bill Watts was a straight up racist and I absolutely believe that bathroom story.  His actions after Dog left ("I'll just find me another one of 'em!") tell you all you need to know about how he, just like every promoter, saw white as the standard and non-white as a gimmick.  Fuck him and his ball licker JR.

[Elsalvajeloco]

To be fair, the way it's always been framed (which could very well and likely is heresay) is that JYD left with no notice and even made it seem like he was there to help Mid South compete against Vince. IIRC He was in the middle of the stuff with Butch Reed. They do their match in the Superdome, and we never see Dog in Mid South anymore. Watts buries him on TV for a couple weeks out of spite. Then, not too long after, inexplicably George Wells comes in as a friend of JYD, shows up with a coat over his taped arm and fists, and bloodies Butch Reed. So clearly Watts got caught with his pants down and felt some type of way to do that weird angle with George Wells as a stand in for JYD.

AFAIK we never got a real explanation how everything went down other than Dog left with no notice. As a result, not only Watts was mad but the boys were mad to the point where the aforementioned story came out about how was there one night talking about how "we" need get ready for Vince and then no longer there after that night. Knowing that he eventually shows up in WWF makes that line incredibly ironic. 

[Mister TV]

36 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

To be fair, the way it's always been framed (which could very well and likely is heresay) is that JYD left with no notice and even made it seem like he was there to help Mid South compete against Vince. IIRC He was in the middle of the stuff with Butch Reed. They do their match in the Superdome, and we never see Dog in Mid South anymore. Watts buries him on TV for a couple weeks out of spite. Then, not too long after, inexplicably George Wells comes in as a friend of JYD, shows up with a coat over his taped arm and fists, and bloodies Butch Reed. So clearly Watts got caught with his pants down and felt some type of way to do that weird angle with George Wells as a stand in for JYD.

AFAIK we never got a real explanation how everything went down other than Dog left with no notice. As a result, not only Watts was mad but the boys were mad to the point where the aforementioned story came out about how was there one night talking about how "we" need get ready for Vince and then no longer there after that night. Knowing that he eventually shows up in WWF makes that line incredibly ironic. 

The Superdome match with Reed was July 16, JYD’s last match in Mid-South looks to be a tv taping on August 1st and his first WWF match on August 10, pretty much everyone who jumped to the WWF gave no notice.
 

Also, Dog was working in multiple promotions in 1984, Mid-South, JCP, Georgia, World Class (Ft. Worth shows), and Florida, I wonder how much of a cut Watts was getting from that. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

23 hours ago, Mister TV said:

The Superdome match with Reed was July 16, JYD’s last match in Mid-South looks to be a tv taping on August 1st and his first WWF match on August 10, pretty much everyone who jumped to the WWF gave no notice.
 

How many of them were JYD? I know folks have left in the middle of feuds, but I think people were under the assumption he was there until further notice. All I know is they did a weird about face as many scorned promoters do (see Vince burying Scott Hall and Nash around the time they start the Outsider angle in WCW). 

I don't know how much I believe the stall story cause it sounds too coincidental especially knowing how Watt's WCW short tenure ends. However, given the time frame, Watts probably should have started preparing for the storm that was about come up. It sounds like Watts assumed Dog would finish out his deal with Butch over the rest of the summer and then they move on to something else, and Dog had already probably gotten at least a guarantee he had a spot waiting for him up in New York. Honestly, by that time in 1984, they had basically done the wrestling version of turning your underwear inside out and wearing it again. I dunno how many times they could have done the friend turns their back on JYD again and again. They also had inserted him into the deal with Magnum and Mr. Wrestling II. Why stay when it's going to get stale and houses are probably going to fall causing that WWF deal to fall apart?

23 hours ago, Mister TV said:

Also, Dog was working in multiple promotions in 1984, Mid-South, JCP, Georgia, World Class (Ft. Worth shows), and Florida, I wonder how much of a cut Watts was getting from that. 

He definitely shows up in Georgia in maybe May or June 1984. I think it coincides with like a 2 or 3 week absence he has in Mid South around that time.

[odessasteps]

IIRC, he took some of those dates after the LLT before coming back as Stagger Lee. 

[Cobra Commander]

It was interesting that the story narrative skipped JYD's first and second WCW runs and went from the WWF to indies to JYD's 1992 WCW run considering that meant they skipped over JYD/Flair

[Technico Support]

Watts and JR weren't even complaining about the lack of notice.  They really came across like they were of the opinion that Watts made JYD's career and that he should have stayed indefinitely.  If Dog stays with Watts out of loyalty until the territory dries up, does Vince pay Dog as much now that he's no longer hot?

Regardless, I wonder if Vince kicked in a little extra for JYD to leave Watts high and dry.  But really, wrestling was so cutthroat then, I can't begrudge any worker for leaving without notice for more money.  Would Watts have given JYD notice if houses were down and he was going to let him go?  Just like bullies become babies when they're punched in the face, carnies always cry foul when they get out-carnied.  I didn't see Watts or JR being upstanding businessmen and "doing business the right way" when they conned Crockett into buying a dying territory.  If JYD fucked Watts over, all he did in my opinion is fuck Watts before Watts could fuck him.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Technico Support

[Cobra Commander]

Adrian Adonis will be the next episode on July 11th. I can see why a cable channel wouldn't want to run original programming on the 4th of July, plus it probably would be a little too on the nose to run the Adrian Adonis episode 35 years to the day of his death.

[odessasteps]

I like they used a “one on one with the Undertaker” clip for Teddy Long. 
 

maybe one of the best collections of talking heads in an episode.

I am curious to hear Beaus pod about this, given his friendship with the Dog in the later years.  Fun fact: JYD loves westerns aka “those john wayne pictures.” No wonder JR liked him son much.

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I like they used a “one on one with the Undertaker” clip for Teddy Long. 
 

maybe one of the best collections of talking heads in an episode.

I am curious to hear Beaus pod about this, given his friendship with the Dog in the later years.  Fun fact: JYD loves westerns aka “those john wayne pictures.” No wonder JR liked him son much.

Before the New Wave of cinema and the death of the American made western, I guarantee that most of the big time movie stars transcended race. Shit, my late uncle from Chicago told me he grew up wanting to be James Dean. He was probably around the same age as JYD if not a bit older seeing as his wife/my aunt (my mom's sister) just turned 80. If Public Enemy never had that line about John Wayne, it probably wouldn't have made a whole bunch of people research John Wayne.

[BloodyChamp]

Duggan has chilled out and I absolutely love him on FB lately. He was a Hogan asskisser in WCW, and I distinctly remember some WCW Live or some shoot or something where he sounded like he could have been reading notes Hogan wrote. He crapped on all the new wrestlers, copped out to drawing power, etc. Meanwhile all he ever did was wrestle on the C shows working the cheapest pop of all time with his chant. But yeah...he’s chilled out. Oldwrestleritis goes away like sinusitis if you can just get through it. 

[sabremike]

On 6/30/2023 at 5:12 PM, Cobra Commander said:

Adrian Adonis will be the next episode on July 11th. I can see why a cable channel wouldn't want to run original programming on the 4th of July, plus it probably would be a little too on the nose to run the Adrian Adonis episode 35 years to the day of his death.

The story surrounding his death is apparently going to be covered which will be the single most fucked up and depraved thing ever discussed on the show (and think of the ground that covers).

https://youtu.be/NuiaQIFAV60

[TheVileOne]

An episode on Adrian Adonis is appreciated.

[SovietShooter]

On 6/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, Dolphman 3000 said:

Quote

Kind of a shame more indies didn't use him - looks like he had a couple matches with Jimmy Jacobs including a Ladder Match (!)

 

Been a long time since I posted here, but I've been lurking for a bit, and decided to chime in on this one...

 

When I was working in the Pittsburgh indys, one of the other companies in the area was booking Matt Bourne whenever they rans shows (which was like every other month or so) since he was living in the area. They actually booked him as Matt Bourne.  Dude always showed up drunk (at least) and just kinda did whatever he wanted, bled all over the place, and apparently that was only if he showed up. For as many Indy groups were in that area, or within a decent drive, dude never really got booked.  People booked fake Doinks, but not Borne. So I just can't see why any of the larger Indy groups at the time would've booked him, perhaps aside from Ian at IWAMS.

 

[Curt McGirt]

On 7/4/2023 at 12:26 AM, sabremike said:

The story surrounding his death is apparently going to be covered which will be the single most fucked up and depraved thing ever discussed on the show (and think of the ground that covers).

https://youtu.be/NuiaQIFAV60

HOLY FUCK.

[StuntmanCrowley]

Wow.  Just fucking wow.

[BloodyChamp]

That’s messed up either way but Idk about the details there. If Adonis drowned later then that would mean the guy went swimming after his ring, took it off him under water, and got back out of the water with it. But it hardly matters. Messed up stuff however it went. 

Is there a Sabu episode? They need to do 1 on him.

Edited July 8, 2023 by BloodyChamp

[The Natural]

One on Ashley Massaro would be dark, so would Daffney. Both by suicide. Miss them.

[Dolphman 3000]

11 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

Is there a Sabu episode? They need to do 1 on him.

All things considered, Sabu's doing alright. He let his uncle handle all his bookings up until he died, which meant after 2002 Sabu was flying blind with managing money and protecting his gimmick.

I was thinking last night an episode on Louie Spicolli would make sense. First ECW star of many to succumb to addiction.

[Curt McGirt]

15 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

Is there a Sabu episode? They need to do 1 on him.

That was the first thing I thought after watching that Adonis interview. The fire match, Born to Be Wired, the botches, the scars, the road and ECW stories... god knows. His shoot in the Forever Hardcore documentary was awesome. 

[BloodyChamp]

Sabu could never touch another drug, blow another penny or lose another drop of blood and be overdue for a professionally done documentary on his life. I’d pay for that faster than I’d pay to watch any wrestling match.