The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries

[Elsalvajeloco]

Even when consider the towns that weren't oil towns like Little Rock, Jackson, MS, and the town they ran closest to where I grew up, Greenville, MS, how much money do you expect to make there?

Those towns are too small to make a sizeable dent compared to what WWF could do when they had a string of viable cities stretching from the Northeast to the Midwest. Crockett would have needed to inherit Houston (which was dunzo and WWF was running), San Antonio, Tulsa/OKC, New Orleans, and Dallas to be super hot along with somehow finding cities that use to be hot like STL and also KC and the part of the Eastern seaboard Vince didn't control.

If this was a U.S. presidential election, Vince would have been at 270 electoral votes by 10 p.m. eastern.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

8 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Even when consider the towns that weren't oil towns like Little Rock, Jackson, MS, and the town they ran closest to where I grew up, Greenville, MS, how much money do you expect to make there?

Those towns are too small to make a sizeable dent compared to what WWF could do when they had a string of viable cities stretching from the Northeast to the Midwest. Crockett would have needed to inherit Houston (which was dunzo and WWF was running), San Antonio, Tulsa/OKC, New Orleans, and Dallas to be super hot along with somehow finding cities that use to be hot like STL and also KC and the part of the Eastern seaboard Vince didn't control.

If this was a U.S. presidential election, Vince would have been at 270 electoral votes by 10 p.m. eastern.

Didn't Houston go to the WWF because of the UWF sale to JCP? I vaguely recall that Boesch was annoyed because the deal happened without him being consulted or him getting a cut, and he switched to WWF instead.

[Mister TV]

44 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

That was a normal part of syndication for pro wrestling. The WWF bought time on stations in exchange for buying commercial time (hence the Lord Alfred Hayes "promotional consideration paid for by the following" soundbyte; the WWF was buying time from the station and ad buyers would buy slots on the show from the WWF, not the station). There were some territories where the station paid the promotion for the TV, like Memphis or JCP, but they also kept the commercial proceeds.

The big money loser was because all the UWF towns were dead because of oil prices collapsing in 1986, and the UWF towns were all in big oil markets. So Crockett not only bought a territory where all the towns were going through a major economic crisis, but he continued to run them thinking that he could bring the crowds back.

The second headquarters in Dallas didn't help either.

The oil bust was one of many factors in the UWF’s downfall, it gets the most mentions purely due to the Jim’s(Ross & Cornette) pushing that narrative. The UWF had the syndication network, but either never ran or didn’t draw well in towns outside of their territory, what’s the use of paying to have your tv on in a market if your not going to run shows there. The UWF also had way too many guys at the top of the card whose Japan dates were a priority, that hurt at the gate in the main UWF towns. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

2 minutes ago, Mister TV said:

The oil bust was one of many factors in the UWF’s downfall, it gets the most mentions purely due to the Jim’s(Ross & Cornette) pushing that narrative. The UWF had the syndication network, but either never ran or didn’t draw well in towns outside of their territory, what’s the use of paying to have your tv on in a market if your not going to run shows there. The UWF also had way too many guys at the top of the card whose Japan dates were a priority, that hurt at the gate in the main UWF towns. 

If the goal was to go with a national expansion and to try and have a pay-per-view audience (well, more realistically for the time, a closed-circuit audience), then picking up Watts' stations would've helped to at least get some form of market penetration. Once you see that you're getting good rating share, then you try and add in those markets. JCP started doing more events in the Watts syndication network; for example, they did more California events after picking up the UWF syndication package (why Watts had syndication in Los Angeles and San Francisco is a question for another time), and the first tour post-buy was great, but it absolutely cratered after that.

JCP wasn't really structured to do the kind of expansion they wanted to do either, which didn't help. Then you have these absolutely ridiculous scheduling matters, like November 8 Atlanta house show, November 9 San Francisco, November 11 Atlanta TV, November 13 Hampton (Virginia), November 16 Los Angeles, November 17 Columbia (South Carolina). Who on earth scheduled the roster to do that? You end up with exhausted talent that ends up killing towns because they're flying across the country multiple times a week.

[Cobra Commander]

How did the UWF compare to 1983 Mid-South for having way too many big meaty men slapping meat?

[Elsalvajeloco]

33 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

If the goal was to go with a national expansion and to try and have a pay-per-view audience (well, more realistically for the time, a closed-circuit audience), then picking up Watts' stations would've helped to at least get some form of market penetration. Once you see that you're getting good rating share, then you try and add in those markets. JCP started doing more events in the Watts syndication network; for example, they did more California events after picking up the UWF syndication package (why Watts had syndication in Los Angeles and San Francisco is a question for another time), and the first tour post-buy was great, but it absolutely cratered after that.

JCP wasn't really structured to do the kind of expansion they wanted to do either, which didn't help. Then you have these absolutely ridiculous scheduling matters, like November 8 Atlanta house show, November 9 San Francisco, November 11 Atlanta TV, November 13 Hampton (Virginia), November 16 Los Angeles, November 17 Columbia (South Carolina). Who on earth scheduled the roster to do that? You end up with exhausted talent that ends up killing towns because they're flying across the country multiple times a week.

Obviously, you had different crews working different shows with a private jet involved for the handful of guys who were making dates across the country. However, part of it was the commitment to continue doing the Mid Atlantic towns as well as the Georgia territory towns on top of trying emulate Vince's expansion.

Vince had TV commitments in Philly, the NYC markets, Baltimore, Boston etc. So you still had shows at MSG, the Spectrum, the Capitol Centre, the Boston Garden, Maple Leaf Gardens, Nassau Coliseum, Baltimore Civic Center/Arena, and other venues on top of doing shows EVERYWHERE else. 

The biggest problem even if you split crews is the lack of starpower to do multiple shows across a week. Vince could get away with it. Crockett couldn't.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

8 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Obviously, you had different crews working different shows with a private jet involved for the handful of guys who were making dates across the country. However, part of it was the commitment to continue doing the Mid Atlantic towns as well as the Georgia territory towns on top of trying emulate Vince's expansion.

Vince had TV commitments in Philly, the NYC markets, Baltimore, Boston etc. So you still had shows at MSG, the Spectrum, the Capitol Centre, the Boston Garden, Maple Leaf Gardens, Nassau Coliseum, Baltimore Civic Center/Arena, and other venues on top of doing shows EVERYWHERE else. 

The biggest problem even if you split crews is the lack of starpower to do multiple shows across a week. Vince could get away with it. Crockett couldn't.

This is pretty spot on. In skimming the cards the undercard was split so you had a west coast crew and an east coast crew, but the draws are the top half of the card being shuttled across the country. The JCP philosophy of "go 20 minutes or more, no nights off" didn't help either, because I don't care who you are, going 20 minutes when you've done four cross-continental flights in eight days is a lot to ask of anyone. I think people went "well, Flair can do it, so everyone can", forgetting that Flair was a medical marvel that should have died a couple of hundred times from his escapades.

Even without these cross-continental flights, JCP had a lot of decisions that asked a lot of their talent. For example, the main event of nearly every Bash show in 1987 was an eight-man cage match with the Horsemen against Dusty, Nikita, and the Road Warriors. So for a month straight you're asking your main event guys to go hard in a cage and at least a couple of people need to bleed. Yeah, you take turns, but that's so physically taxing. That same philosophy costs JCP the Powers of Pain a few months later when they book the Road Warriors and the Powers of Pain in a series(!) of scaffold matches. That's way too much to ask of people to take even a ten foot bump every night for four weeks straight - and that's being generous, the JCP scaffold was usually 15-20 feet.

And the easy response is "blame Dusty, he booked it". The buck had to stop somewhere, and Crockett should've said "hey, you know, maybe we don't do a month of cage matches on top".

This is also right around when the fans started getting sick of Dusty and friends against the Horsemen, which goes back to where we were at the original start of this... what if Magnum doesn't get in the crash. The people who were pessimistic about Dusty say "well Dusty turns Magnum heel" or "Dusty's ego won't let Magnum be the bigger star", but I personally don't believe that. Dusty loved Magnum and I think would've gladly moved Magnum over him. At that point everything freshens up because the Horsemen get a new arch-enemy.

So... after a couple of days of discussion, is JCP in a better spot with a healthy Magnum? I think they are. I think they still buy the UWF for the syndication because the goal was to expand nationally, I think they just take it slower and don't rush to try and book the UWF towns as frequently. They're still screwed if they buy Florida. I don't think they make as many panic moves but they still have a bunch of bad ideas that don't help their overall goal. I think they still sell to Turner, but maybe in 1989 or 1990. If they don't, then they end up becoming a lot like Memphis... slowly regressing to eventual failure in the mid- to late-1990s.

It's still a grim proposition but it's a better one than what they had. Magnum puts them in a better spot but by October 1986 Vince had pulled pretty far ahead. Losing Magnum just made it worse.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Sparkleface

[Technico Support]

On 6/9/2023 at 10:11 AM, Mister TV said:

I can't see them keeping Magnum as a long term champion with Flair still around, sure the chase would be amazing business but then what? Magnum would need the belt for 2 or 3 years while being booked in the Bruno/Pedro/Backlund style of champion, how could they do that with Flair still around? 

This is a great point.  Vice's dodgy narrative of "Magnum not having that accident would have changed everything!" would have required Crockett to have the talent, booking ability, and the stomach to retool the whole territory to become a babyface company like 80s WWF, where the champ beats a rotating monster factory.  Crockett just wasn't that kind of company and considering their audience and how their booking dovetailed with Southern "lost cause" themes, probably never could nor should have ever become that.  More likely Magnum gets a hot, money-making chase and a short reign or two, then ends up with Vince or sticks around as a perennial babyface always ready to be heated back up when needed, like Sting.  Probably the former as Magnum himself said he wanted to make money and get out, and Vince would have been a better shot at that.

Unrelated, I had to check the thehistoryofwwe.com (use the wrong url and you'll get gas station dick pills) to check if I'd ever seen Magnum wrestle in person.  Unfortunately, his accident came a mere two months before my first ever Crockett show, a December '86 Bunkhouse Stampede in Baltimore.  Damn.

Edited June 12, 2023 by Technico Support

[odessasteps]

I guess I saw him twice, once in Feb 86 in Baltimore and the first 86 Bash at the Vet. 

[Hamhock]

If we go back further into what-if scenarios: if Barry Windham doesn’t jump to the WWF in 1984 and instead stays in Mid-Atlantic with Dusty, Magnum most likely stays in Mid-South at least another year, and I can easily see Vince throwing money at him in late ‘85/early ‘86 - him against Savage for the IC title would have been terrific.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Hamhock

[Cobra Commander]

the Eddie Graham episode was interesting, not to downplay it any because there's an important message too

[hammerva]

Not really sure what the purpose of the Jerry Graham stories in the beginning unless they are trying to show that Jerry's craziness and alcoholic problems caused Eddie's alcoholism and other issues and started the cycle.   It was an incredible story though

Thought it was interesting that the original Rip Rogers was Eddie Graham.    Although I am sure there are people under that name before the 60's

Edited June 14, 2023 by hammerva

[Technico Support]

That was a rough one.  No idea why I didn't know Mike's son killed himself, too.  And that Eddie had a background of suicide when he was coming up as well.  After all was told, they showed a pic of Mike and Eddie together and I just looked at their eyes and both guys just looked angry and miserable.  There were things hinted at but not told outright in the episode, like how Mike's son was raised to "not be a wimp."  It just sounds like there was a lot of mental illness and  toxic masculinity awfulness passed down in that family and, well, hurt people hurt people. 

[zendragon]

That was heart breaking 

@hammerva I thought the point was that the Jerry Graham self destructive tendencies lead to Eddie moving to Florida 

Edited June 14, 2023 by zendragon

[notoriusvig]

The Graham episode was pretty intriguing and really hit home, for me. I wrote a big thing over at F4W so I won't repeat it all but I've struggled with suicide and depression for twenty years. I can relate to the pain that these people must have been going through and what the family lives with. It sounds like his daughter has struggled too, and I just hope another generation doesn't follow this trend.

[odessasteps]

I’m a little surprised they didn’t do more on the Snake Pit. 
 

good for Mike’s daughter to be mentally strong enough to do that interview.

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

That was a rough one.  No idea why I didn't know Mike's son killed himself, too.  And that Eddie had a background of suicide when he was coming up as well.  After all was told, they showed a pic of Mike and Eddie together and I just looked at their eyes and both guys just looked angry and miserable.  There were things hinted at but not told outright in the episode, like how Mike's son was raised to "not be a wimp."  It just sounds like there was a lot of mental illness and  toxic masculinity awfulness passed down in that family and, well, hurt people hurt people. 

I am not big on the term toxic masculinity BUT I will make an exception for Mike Graham based on his reputation as a road agent for WCW. It's more Napoleon complex probably but it's clear that he wasn't that well liked by many of the wrestlers there because he wanted to be more a hard ass, real wrestler from the old school. The boys weren't respecting that shit.

IMO I think the whole episode points to something that I think the folks being interviewed were hinting at but didn't want to admit. Personally, I think at the beginning they overplayed the Eddie Graham was a genius aspect especially given that his territory might have been at stake or possibly been compromised by Eddie's bad decisions. Moreover, I think it becomes apparent that while Vince played his part in killing the territories that most of these promoters had great wrestling creative acumen in many cases, but very little real business acumen. That bought some people time in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. However, when the TV landscape started to change and pop culture started to change, business knowledge was essential. Why are you trying to run a wrestling enterprise that goes through ebbs and flows unlike many other industries like you're this philanthropist CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Yes, you probably have to go through some shadowy figure who is going to fund your endeavor(s) cause how else are going to come up with money other than live gate revenue from wrestling events?

That set up Eddie for being the guy who had to realize (just like other promoters as the decade rolled on) that this wrestling shit isn't defined by the number of years you've been it. (Vince) Junior came in and fucked up everyone's shit up with the quickness cause he realized most of these folks who were his contemporaries were just a bunch of wrestlers cosplaying as businessmen. 

You can see why there is so much animosity and weird, often irrational bitterness from ex wrestlers/personalities towards people outside of wrestling who become powerful figures within wrestling (from Jim Herd to Dixie/the Carters to Tony Khan). Yet, cause he's been around for so long, Vince has been grandfathered in. He's the heel in one story and the babyface in another (ironically, much like that happening in the territories). Incredible.

I cannot offer or even contemplate as to why Eddie Graham might have killed himself, but I can surmise that Mike probably felt his father was branded as a failure despite all his accomplishments cause he offed himself. Yet, when you think about it, Eddie for as long as he lived had that not happened could have had a second life as advisor for a Vince or Crockett while he was still in competition with Vince. Yeah, Florida would have went out of business but he probably could have made some deal with someone else and pocketed some quick cash from that, Then, parlay that into a different venture if he wanted to. You might think well some mob guy would have probably killed him. Well, shit, if you last that long in the wrestling business with other crooks and criminals, you probably like your chances with them especially seeing as they likely need you to legitimize their own business as a local figure.

[Kuetsar]

 

I am not big on the term toxic masculinity BUT I will make an exception for Mike Graham based on his reputation as a road agent for WCW. It's more Napoleon complex probably but it's clear that he wasn't that well liked by many of the wrestlers there because he wanted to be more a hard ass, real wrestler from the old school. The boys weren't respecting that shit.

IMO I think the whole episode points to something that I think the folks being interviewed were hinting at but didn't want to admit. Personally, I think at the beginning they overplayed the Eddie Graham was a genius aspect especially given that his territory might have been at stake or possibly been compromised by Eddie's bad decisions. Moreover, I think it becomes apparent that while Vince played his part in killing the territories that most of these promoters had great wrestling creative acumen in many cases, but very little real business acumen. That bought some people time in the 50s, 60s, and 70s. However, when the TV landscape started to change and pop culture started to change, business knowledge was essential. Why are you trying to run a wrestling enterprise that goes through ebbs and flows unlike many other industries like you're this philanthropist CEO of a Fortune 500 company? Yes, you probably have to go through some shadowy figure who is going to fund your endeavor(s) cause how else are going to come up with money other than live gate revenue from wrestling events?

That set up Eddie for being the guy who had to realize (just like other promoters as the decade rolled on) that this wrestling shit isn't defined by the number of years you've been it. (Vince) Junior came in and fucked up everyone's shit up with the quickness cause he realized most of these folks who were his contemporaries were just a bunch of wrestlers cosplaying as businessmen. 

You can see why there is so much animosity and weird, often irrational bitterness from ex wrestlers/personalities towards people outside of wrestling who become powerful figures within wrestling (from Jim Herd to Dixie/the Carters to Tony Khan). Yet, cause he's been around for so long, Vince has been grandfathered in. He's the heel in one story and the babyface in another (ironically, much like that happening in the territories). Incredible.

I cannot offer or even contemplate as to why Eddie Graham might have killed himself, but I can surmise that Mike probably felt his father was branded as a failure despite all his accomplishments cause he offed himself. Yet, when you think about it, Eddie for as long as he lived had that not happened could have had a second life as advisor for a Vince or Crockett while he was still in competition with Vince. Yeah, Florida would have went out of business but he probably could have made some deal with someone else and pocketed some quick cash from that, Then, parlay that into a different venture if he wanted to. You might think well some mob guy would have probably killed him. Well, shit, if you last that long in the wrestling business with other crooks and criminals, you probably like your chances with them especially seeing as they likely need you to legitimize their own business as a local figure.

Vince may have done it differently, but to call him an outsider is a real stretch. . . .

[Elsalvajeloco]

 

Vince may have done it differently, but to call him an outsider is a real stretch. . . .

Your beef isn't with me. You tell that to the promoters that supposedly wanted to kill him.

Before and after some of these folks (from wrestlers to creative) encountered him or worked for/with him, he's been cast in the role of the interloper for a certain time period.

[Dolphman 3000]

 

Before and after some of these folks (from wrestlers to creative) encountered him or worked for/with him, he's been cast in the role of the interloper for a certain time period.

Vince is a failson who was told to get a business degree before being handed the keys to the castle.

Tale as old as time.

Edited June 16, 2023 by Dolphman 3000

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just to keep this on the Graham family, going by what you know of Mike Graham (who looked like a wrestling accountant...sorry D'Lo), who would have thought he was fit to run a wrestling territory even if his father lived? Now juxtapose that with Vince, who didn't align with the old guard of Giegel, Mushnick, Owen, Boesch, etc. but had the most timely and coherent vision of what wrestling could be (not to be confused with what would be thought to be sensible from a hardcore wrestling fan perspective) for the timeframe he came into power.

You would think that the Vince from 1982-1992, who was sitting atop the wrestling world having killed off his competition and made gobs of money, was a different man from the one hardened by a precipitous decline in business along with lawsuits (from Chuck Austin to Ventura over his likeness rights to the guy who Tatanka hurt in their enhancement match to the Ring boy scandal) and the steroid trial. You would think the former is the Mobutu or Pol Pot of wrestling while the latter is some guy who earned his stripes as a wrestling promoter and came out of the other end unscathed to the point where he's this weird Teflon Don. In reality, it's the same same.

[odessasteps]

It didn't fit the theme, but I would have liked to have seen more about Eddie the great booker and his "coaching tree." In a way, Eddie is Parcells and Watts is Belichek and Ross, JC and others are .... Josh McDaniel and other guys who became head coaches after I stopped watching football. 

You always hear about his complicated finishes and the like. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 hours ago, odessasteps said:

It didn't fit the theme, but I would have liked to have seen more about Eddie the great booker and his "coaching tree." In a way, Eddie is Parcells and Watts is Belichek and Ross, JC and others are .... Josh McDaniel and other guys who became head coaches after I stopped watching football. 

You always hear about his complicated finishes and the like. 

I subscribe to the Observer but don't follow close enough to follow what the awards are named for....is booker of the year named after a specific person? 

Also, Cornette being compared to McDaniel is hilarious. Not as bad or harsh as Matt Patricia but it's close.

Is the Eddie Graham tree much like the coaching tree for Eddie Futch tree in boxing? It doesn't sound like it based on you comparing his students to the guys who failed with Belicheck. Eddie Futch, who I can confirm the boxing trainer of the year award is named after, was so great his students probably deserve to be on the Mount Rushmore of boxing trainers with him. For example, one of his fighters George Benton went on to be arguably the second or third best trainer of the modern era. He is also responsible for guys like Ronnie Shields and Freddie Roach among several others who ended up winning the Eddie Futch trainer of the year award. You can literally trace his influence back to the 1940s.

[zendragon]

If he was in his late 30s during that Starrcade footage then he was looking rough

[odessasteps]

As I said, I don't know which of his assistant ls were good or bad, since I don't watch football anymore. 

Should I have done Tom Landry coaching tree instead? Or Lombardi? No one knows who Jim Howell is, but he made Landry and Lombardi his coaches for the NY football Giants in the mid 1950s.