supremebve Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, Matt D said: I bet Littlefinger could discredit him. Just saying. I doubt it, the thing about the High Sparrow is that he seems to be everything he says he is. That is the problem. It is kind of like Varys' quote about Stannis, "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." It is the Martin Luther King Jr. strategy. When he was organizing protests where he knew that the racial violence would be the worst, he made sure that the most unassailable members of the movement were there. Rosa Parks was hand picked to sit on that bus, because he knew that she was a person who couldn't be discredited. If it was someone else, they could have justified treating her unfairly. Think about when you see a young black kid get shot by the police, and the news starts talking about how he was no angel or he smoked weed that one time or anything else that justifies why he deserves to be gunned down in the street. No one ever had the opportunity to say any of those things about anyone surrounding Martin Luther King Jr. The reason his movement was more effective than anyone since is because he convinced the most undeniably good black citizens in a position to be treated worse than anyone should ever be treated. That is who the High Sparrow is, and that is how he gained his power. He walked the whole of Westeros barefoot, performing religious ceremonies and gaining followers. The people know him, they trust him, and they absolutely love him. You can't discredit him, because the people know him and know that he is everything he says he is. That is more powerful than any army in Westeros. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 And yet there is something sinister about him that is not quite right... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 13 minutes ago, J.T. said: And yet there is something sinister about him that is not quite right... Is he sinister or are you just uncomfortable about your own status as a sinner. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 14 minutes ago, supremebve said: Is he sinister or are you just uncomfortable about your own status as a sinner. You don't believe that any more than I do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt D Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Truly just men can wake up next to dead whores like anyone else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 The Lannisters seem to be suffering for not having created a new foreign outsider enemy to scare their people into supporting them over and allow them to justify pretty much anything they want. Basic politics. Hey, Dothraki will do! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 48 minutes ago, supremebve said: I doubt it, the thing about the High Sparrow is that he seems to be everything he says he is. That is the problem. It is kind of like Varys' quote about Stannis, "There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." It is the Martin Luther King Jr. strategy. When he was organizing protests where he knew that the racial violence would be the worst, he made sure that the most unassailable members of the movement were there. Rosa Parks was hand picked to sit on that bus, because he knew that she was a person who couldn't be discredited. If it was someone else, they could have justified treating her unfairly. Think about when you see a young black kid get shot by the police, and the news starts talking about how he was no angel or he smoked weed that one time or anything else that justifies why he deserves to be gunned down in the street. No one ever had the opportunity to say any of those things about anyone surrounding Martin Luther King Jr. The reason his movement was more effective than anyone since is because he convinced the most undeniably good black citizens in a position to be treated worse than anyone should ever be treated. That is who the High Sparrow is, and that is how he gained his power. He walked the whole of Westeros barefoot, performing religious ceremonies and gaining followers. The people know him, they trust him, and they absolutely love him. You can't discredit him, because the people know him and know that he is everything he says he is. That is more powerful than any army in Westeros. Not to get deep into this rabbit hole because I certainly understand what you mean as it relates to the show, but you could have did that sixty or seventy years too. With white supremacy, you don't have to justify jackshit. Moreover, it's not that this or that person is unassailable as it is the appearance of that trait. Unless, you're living in someone's mind 24/7, you don't know if they're truly unassailable or not. When COINTELPRO was going on, that didn't stop them from digging up all types of possibly incriminating information on MLK and his all of his associates. Also, it depends on what you mean by "they" as it relates to MLK. If you mean white people in general, of course, what they had to say about him wasn't great. Same with the news because you know that what was going on then was some of the same shit going on now. If you mean his supporters, I think people were smart enough to cut through the maze of bullshit people put out there. That's why the movement (and Malcolm's movement as well) was effective. If you understand the reason why you're out there, anything the news puts out there whether it's about any black leader ultimately didn't matter anyway. Now, you can just attack black culture, the family structure, and whatever else that seems relevant. You just have to say even slicker shit to disguise your racism. Either way, you don't have to win the war on news propaganda outright if the government is infiltrated with white supremacists and can find ways to make you look evil. It works even better if they can find ways to kill you in cold blood. All that MLK was the good guy and Malcolm X was the bad guy shit came during our lifetimes when you can pass that bullshit off as truth. There was no fucking right answer because both ended up dead. Mission accomplished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said: Not to get deep into this rabbit hole because I certainly understand what you mean as it relates to the show, but you could have did that sixty or seventy years too. With white supremacy, you don't have to justify jackshit. Moreover, it's not that this or that person is unassailable as it is the appearance of that trait. Unless, you're living in someone's mind 24/7, you don't know if they're truly unassailable or not. When COINTELPRO was going on, that didn't stop them from digging up all types of possibly incriminating information on MLK and his all of his associates. Also, it depends on what you mean by "they" as it relates to MLK. If you mean white people in general, of course, what they had to say about him wasn't great. Same with the news because you know that what was going on then was some of the same shit going on now. If you mean his supporters, I think people were smart enough to cut through the maze of bullshit people put out there. That's why the movement (and Malcolm's movement as well) was effective. If you understand the reason why you're out there, anything the news puts out there whether it's about any black leader ultimately didn't matter anyway. Now, you can just attack black culture, the family structure, and whatever else that seems relevant. You just have to say even slicker shit to disguise your racism. Either way, you don't have to win the war on news propaganda outright if the government is infiltrated with white supremacists and can find ways to make you look evil. It works even better if they can find ways to kill you in cold blood. All that MLK was the good guy and Malcolm X was the bad guy shit came during our lifetimes when you can pass that bullshit off as truth. There was no fucking right answer because both ended up dead. Mission accomplished. Yeah, none of that really relates to Game of Thrones though. I wasn't really trying to get into a deep discussion about MLK's tactics, just use it as an example of how the High Sparrow is fighting against the power of the crown. Honestly though, MLK's movement was based almost totally on going to the place where him and his people were most likely to die and make sure everyone was watching. Every time he went to one of those places he knew that he might die, and that is exactly why he went. He was quite simply the most courageous person I've ever heard of, and everything I learn about him makes me admire him more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elsalvajeloco Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 1 minute ago, supremebve said: Yeah, none of that really relates to Game of Thrones though. I wasn't really trying to get into a deep discussion about MLK's tactics, just use it as an example of how the High Sparrow is fighting against the power of the crown. Honestly though, MLK's movement was based almost totally on going to the place where him and his people were most likely to die and make sure everyone was watching. Every time he went to one of those places he knew that he might die, and that is exactly why he went. He was quite simply the most courageous person I've ever heard of, and everything I learn about him makes me admire him more. No problem. I wanted to clear some shit up because it was missing a few pertinent details. I didn't have a mini heart attack, but I did have a "Wait...what?" moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 The problem with the Lannisters is that after Tywin died the only one who was capable of running the family close to at his level was already a fugitive on the run. Jamie still remains a thug lacking any subtlety, Cersei fancies herself clever but is even more obvious than Jamie. Its a miracle neither of them are dead in King's Landing at this point. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piranesi Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Is book Jaimie as ineffectual as show Jaimie has been since season 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Book Jamie has been elsewhere. Also worth pointing out that in the books, the reign of Tommen has actually gone quite well, with Kevan having proven a very capable Hand. Until Varys murdered him for doing too good of a job, making the people less likely to side with Varys's hand-picked future king, a character that doesn't even exist on the show thus far and seems unlikely ever to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcosLoura Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 Jaime's story on the book is a way cooler story. It doesn't make me mad like the Greyjoy stuff, just disappointed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bink_winkleman Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 3 hours ago, Matt D said: Truly just men can wake up next to dead whores like anyone else? Yeah, this is more what I was thinking by "Littlefinger could take him down." There's also a Peter Balish/Thiel joke in there with maybe a Ser Hogan reference that I'm too lazy to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Throat Posted May 31, 2016 Share Posted May 31, 2016 I'm looking forward to seeing how well the Dothraki and Unsullied integrate into Westorosi society once Daenerys has conquered King's Landing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jrag Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I've held the thought for a long time that we really shouldn't want Dany to win. They have been not so subtlety hinting on the show that maybe she is her father's daughter. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 C'mon Bran, you couldn't at least paddle your hands along the side of your pallet and at least pretend to help Meera with the escape? Fucking intellectuals, always getting others to do the heavy lifting. "Oh sorry I can't help with our escape from the ice zombies, I need to ruminate on the past right now." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizium Posted June 1, 2016 Author Share Posted June 1, 2016 I find it funny how quickly the show reveals long standing mysteries from the books. Practically the first thing Qyburn does with Ser Robert Strong is take him around and introduce him to people as the Mountain and in this episode, Coldhands revealed himself as Benjen in his first sit down with Bran. I'm pretty sure he was with Bran for weeks in the books and we still aren't sure who he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.T. Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 14 hours ago, Jrag said: I've held the thought for a long time that we really shouldn't want Dany to win. They have been not so subtlety hinting on the show that maybe she is her father's daughter. The television show has already headed this off at the pass by putting Tyrion where he is not supposed to be. I am confident that Dany as queen with Tyrion as an advisor and Varys running the Shadow Network will lead to a somewhat benevolent if not stern monarchy. She will obviously suspend the tradition of a Queen only being able to serve as regent and not rule in her own stead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolfan in NYC Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Or, more accurately, the dragons will. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Dany is the least qualified to rule easily. At this point her whole justification for conquering Westeros is her own sense of destiny despite any real competence of a leader. Maybe Tyrion and Varys are the parts she was missing in her entourage to show her that while she can rule as Queen it is best that she leave actual governing of the kingdom to the small council. James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Mind you, that's if Euron Greyjoy doesn't end up on the throne since he might be the most bugfuck insane of them all! James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 I'm kinda expecting Euron to end up as Drogon's lunch when he tries to pull the "Marry me and get my ships" line with the leftover Ironborn that didn't desert with Theon and Yara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H. Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 Unless they are saving that Dragon enslaving horn for key moment James Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supremebve Posted June 1, 2016 Share Posted June 1, 2016 9 minutes ago, J.H. said: Dany is the least qualified to rule easily. At this point her whole justification for conquering Westeros is her own sense of destiny despite any real competence of a leader. Maybe Tyrion and Varys are the parts she was missing in her entourage to show her that while she can rule as Queen it is best that she leave actual governing of the kingdom to the small council. James Her justification for conquering Westeros is that it belongs to her by all rights. The reason Robert was trying to kill her is because legally he shouldn't have been king as long as she was alive. The other thing is that you don't make plans to rule a place that doesn't belong to you. Before she can rule, she has to conquer. If she has to conquer with Dothraki, Unsullied, Dragons, or a plague of locusts, she can figure out how to get all of them to coexist after she conquers Westeros. There really isn't a need to worry about how, until she has actually secured the victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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