AEW - OCTOBER 2024

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, twiztor said:

Matt, this question isn't in response to this post, but i've been meaning to ask you this for a few weeks now.

You've been critical of Hangman Page's matches in the past. I enjoy his matches but can absolutely see your POV and find your critique to be valid and informative. Has that changed with his character shift? To me, his matches seem to be built very differently. Obviously centered less around high spots (although he still more often than not busts out that nonsensical Orihara moonsault). But has his more hardnosed tactics affected your views?

Yes! I plan on writing something before the end of the year about how he's my Most Improved. 

[Technico Support]

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

I get this argument, but I think it really undervalues all that's been lost over the generations, and I don't think people should laugh it away like they do. I personally feel like wrestling would have been better without Race's high spots. You see something like Johnny Valentine vs Bull Curry and it'd be great if wrestling was more like that. 

There's a line from Race/Stevens to Flair to Michaels to Omega/Bucks. And it's not all positive progress. 

I think there's a lot of good wrestling that lives in the middle, between the two extremes of "old vets laying on each other for a half hour and having a night off but being so good they had the marks eating out of their hands anyway" and "meaningless and dangerous spotfest."  I feel like your tastes are more toward the former and that's, of course, okay.  I once expressed, in the AEW navel gazing thread, how I feel like the former is cynical and anti-fan and was roundly ridiculed by you and Curt, so I won't be doing that again.  But I feel like there's plenty of variety out there for everybody.  I'm not even sure why I'm replying specifically to you; I guess your point just reminded me of all this.  But nobody should argue with anyone about their personal tastes and I'd love to read something where you qualify the argument that we need more Johnny Valentine and less Kenny Omega.

Do you love actual pro wrestling matches, or just the idea of pro wrestling and the con?  There's an undeniable art to doing as little as possible and making the people think they saw something amazing when they didn't.  But that's not something I, myself, want to watch.

Edited October 22, 2024 by Technico Support

[Matt D]

1. Yes I love pro wrestling. I love seeing this play out in the moment. I don't love ALL pro wrestling. I don't love ALL aspects of pro wrestling. The ones that I do love, I really love and I think you can find millions (millions feels right, certainly over a million) of words about my love of it online. 

2. Here's something I wrote recently: https://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2024/10/on-action-progress-meaning-and-need-to.html that seems to hit some of what you're asking for.

[tbarrie]

3 hours ago, Matt D said:

Yes! I plan on writing something before the end of the year about how he's my Most Improved. 

If Hangman ever goes back full face, it'll be interesting to see if he re-adopts the style you disliked.

[zendragon]

On 10/21/2024 at 8:52 AM, SovietShooter said:

Maybe it is just me, but I do not get the vibes of an "invasion" or anything like that from this angle with the BCC. In fact, I'm getting the total opposite. It goes back to the stuff with Private Party; They broke Zayn's hand with the hammer, and it pissed them off and they've stepped their game up. I think Mox is laying things out pretty clearly - he is against guys just showing up to hang out with their buddies and have fun.  BCC are the super serious guys there to beat people up. 

This is reminding me more and more of a Chikara-type angle. I think where this is going is "Guys Who Take Wrestling Too Seriously" vs "Wrestling Is Supposed to Be Fun!"

Orange Cassidy and Darby are the two linchpins to the angle.  OC's whole gimmick is that he is a slacker, and just hanging out with his friends. Darby has repeatedly said that he doesn't care about winning the AEW title, he is just "Mr AEW". Both of these things offend Jon Moxley, as they are the opposite of what he believes.  Guys like the Dark Order and Top Flight have been floating around for years now but getting any better, not moving up the card, and the BCC is taking them out.

 

Blood and Guts inside a Steel Davey Richards?

[The Natural]

59 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Blood and Guts inside a Steel Davey Richards?

I understand that reference!

[The Natural]

3 hours ago, zendragon said:

Blood and Guts inside a Steel Davey Richards?

You mentioning Davey Richards, I have to bring this classic back for older members who want to see it for the first time in years and our new members who will have missed out:

https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4991-may-2016-animated-gif-thread/page/3/

[twiztor]

1 hour ago, The Natural said:

You mentioning Davey Richards, I have to bring this classic back for older members who want to see it for the first time in years and our new members who will have missed out:

https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/topic/4991-may-2016-animated-gif-thread/page/3/

haha, it feels like that used to get posted damn near daily. haven't seen it in quite a while. thanks for bringing it back up.

[Log]

Am I misremembering, or was there yet another suplex after they spilled to the outside on that Davey Richards spot?

[Sublime]

Someone should have parodied that spot by just taking turns suplexing each other all the way out of the arena or at least into the back and then to start the next show they suplex each other back out the ring 

Edited October 23, 2024 by Sublime
Autocorrect fixes

[Dolfan in NYC]

Adam Cole confirmed he and Britt Baker** have split up irl.  

I look forward to MJF cutting the one promo he knows how to do about this.

 

 

** - EDIT --- I'm sorry,  Britt Baker, D. M. D. 

[HarryArchieGus]

I'm surpised with all the 'copying WWE' paranoia that has intermittently led to ppl bemoaning rope colors that so few have taken aim at AEW flat out copying the 'Money in the Bank' contract. I'm not at all a fan of this lame bullshit, but if AEW is going to use it they at least need to build up the importance of when/how you can aquire said advantageous stip. Randomly adding it as a stip to the fourth Casino BR in six months doesn't cut it. There are few things I hope for more in AEW than dropping this silly cash in contract. TItle switches on MITB contracts feel as legit as a Champion losing their title in a rotten first fall three way. 

Edited October 23, 2024 by HarryArchieGus

[tbarrie]

11 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I'm surpised with all the 'copying WWE' paranoia that has intermittently led to ppl bemoaning rope colors that so few have taken aim at AEW flat out copying the 'Money in the Bank' contract. I'm not at all a fan of this lame bullshit, but if AEW is going to use it they at least need to build up the importance of when/how you can aquire said advantageous stip. Randomly adding it as a stip to the fourth Casino BR in six months doesn't cut it. There are few things I hope for more in AEW than dropping this silly cash in contract. TItle switches on MITB contracts feel as legit as a Champion losing their title in a rotten first fall three way. 

At least they announced in advance that this one would be for a title match whenever the winner chooses. So better than the time MJF won the poker chip in a Casino Ladder Match and they decided after the fact that this chip could be used for a surprise cash-in, which had never been part of the deal before.

But yeah, they should drop the gimmick entirely in my opinion.

(And nitpick: Christian won his shot in a Casino Gauntlet Match, not a Casino Battle Royal. Though I realize keeping track of all the various "Casino" matches AEW uses can be tough. Easiest to remember that Casino Battle Royals are kind of stupid where Casino Gauntlet Matches are kind of fun, in my opinion.)

[twiztor]

13 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I'm surpised with all the 'copying WWE' paranoia that has intermittently led to ppl bemoaning rope colors that so few have taken aim at AEW flat out copying the 'Money in the Bank' contract. I'm not at all a fan of this lame bullshit, but if AEW is going to use it they at least need to build up the importance of when/how you can aquire said advantageous stip. Randomly adding it as a stip to the fourth Casino BR in six months doesn't cut it. There are few things I hope for more in AEW than dropping this silly cash in contract. TItle switches on MITB contracts feel as legit as a Champion losing their title in a rotten first fall three way. 

it is the difference in booking TO a title change, and just booking a title change.

i think back to New Year's Revolution 2006, which had Edge cash in the very first MITB briefcase for a title shot vs. John Cena, who had just retained in an Elimination Chamber match. That felt huge. It played into Edge being the "ultimate opportunist", it was the payoff to Edge begging for and trying to earn a title shot over the last year, and felt like it worked extremely well for his character. The the crowd pop was crazy. i just remember the dread feeling of "oh shit, this is happening" sweeping over the audience. Perfectly timed, perfectly played, perfect performers.

But that was almost 20 years ago, and they've done one (or more) MITB situations ever since. It's no longer "we'll build to this and we're showing the crowd that THIS is the next guy". Now it's just a built-in swerve. a short term booking fix. It's played out. Sure, i think it CAN still work, and i've even enjoyed the teases that Christian has shown. But Christian doesn't feel like he's a World Title contender at this point. And he won't in 3-, 6-, or even 9 months. It's just a prop. And i think that hurts more in AEW, which has worked to keep the AEW World Title feeling like a real accomplishment, rather than the prop that Vince Russo maintains that all belts are.

[tbarrie]

5 hours ago, twiztor said:

It's just a prop. And i think that hurts more in AEW, which has worked to keep the AEW World Title feeling like a real accomplishment, rather than the prop that Vince Russo maintains that all belts are.

I mean, Russo is completely correct, it's just the conclusion he draws next is nonsense. Yes, the belts are props. So was The One Ring in Jackson's film adaptation of Lord of the Rings, or the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as important in-story!

Edited October 23, 2024 by tbarrie

[The Natural]

https://twitter.com/The_MJF/status/1849100564841234470

MJF on Adam Cole's surgery.

[Technico Support]

1 hour ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Adam Cole confirmed he and Britt Baker** have split up irl.  

I look forward to MJF cutting the one promo he knows how to do about this.

 

 

** - EDIT --- I'm sorry,  Britt Baker, D. M. D. 

Aw man, I didn't even consider this.  So we'll get MJF saying something uncreative and gross, then mugging to the camera like Urkel.  Generational talent my ass.

1 hour ago, tbarrie said:

(And nitpick: Christian won his shot in a Casino Gauntlet Match, not a Casino Battle Royal. Though I realize keeping track of all the various "Casino" matches AEW uses can be tough. Easiest to remember that Casino Battle Royals are kind of stupid where Casino Gauntlet Matches are kind of fun, in my opinion.)

AEW's gambing iconography gives me real Texas Hold Em Bro vibes and is aging poorly, as that fad died years ago.  Maybe get rid of all of it except All In and the Casino Gauntlet.

1 hour ago, twiztor said:

i think back to New Year's Revolution 2006, which had Edge cash in the very first MITB briefcase for a title shot vs. John Cena, who had just retained in an Elimination Chamber match. That felt huge. It played into Edge being the "ultimate opportunist", it was the payoff to Edge begging for and trying to earn a title shot over the last year, and felt like it worked extremely well for his character. The the crowd pop was crazy. i just remember the dread feeling of "oh shit, this is happening" sweeping over the audience. Perfectly timed, perfectly played, perfect performers.

 

Edge's cash in was awesome because it was the first time it had been done, so nobody really considered a prick heel cashing in on a beaten champion to steal the belt.  Also, he had the briefcase so long he only had like two months left to cash in and it was sort of forgotten about.  Now it's just a cliche.  A year-round gimmick wherein someone can steal a championship is lame.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Technico Support

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

2 hours ago, tbarrie said:

At least they announced in advance that this one would be for a title match whenever the winner chooses. So better than the time MJF won the poker chip in a Casino Ladder Match and they decided after the fact that this chip could be used for a surprise cash-in, which had never been part of the deal before.

But yeah, they should drop the gimmick entirely in my opinion.

(And nitpick: Christian won his shot in a Casino Gauntlet Match, not a Casino Battle Royal. Though I realize keeping track of all the various "Casino" matches AEW uses can be tough. Easiest to remember that Casino Battle Royals are kind of stupid where Casino Gauntlet Matches are kind of fun, in my opinion.)

With Max’s poker chip didn’t Stokely win it for him? Or am I misremembering who actually climbed the ladder? That would have made the angle so much better too if when Max went to “cash in” that Tony Khan would be like nope sorry Stokely has to as he won the match.  

[twiztor]

3 hours ago, tbarrie said:

I mean, Russo is completely correct, it's just the conclusion he draws next is nonsense. Yes, the belts are props. So was The One Ring in the Jackson's film adaptation of Lord of the Rings, or the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as important in-story!

not to get all Vince McMahon on this, but technically you're correct. the "belt" is a prop. the "Championship" is the honor.

[Zimbra]

I'd argue that the belt is a metonym for the championship and thus it's acceptable usage to use 'belt' to refer to the championship itself.

[HarryArchieGus]

Quote

* Ladder War for ROH World Championship: Mark Briscoe (c) vs. Chris Jericho
* The Elite (The Young Bucks & Jack Perry) vs. Daniel Garcia & Private Party
* Sammy Guevara vs. Shelton Benjamin
* Queen Aminata vs. Kamille
* The House of Black in action
* We’ll hear from Kyle Fletcher
* Jon Moxley to appear

Giddily looking forward to Shelton Benjamin competitively murdering Sammy. Elite v Garcia/Privates could be tremendous fun. I liked Jericho-Briscoe 1. Mark's been properly making the best of the Jericho vortex. My daydream is Jericho finds a way to win the title, and then goes exclusive to Honorclub to test the streaming marketplace. Aminata v Kamille worries me. I'm not with using Aminata like she's Brian Cage or a Premiere Athlete. I'm really hoping 'The House of Black in action' and 'Jon Moxley to appear' crossover. 

[tbarrie]

5 minutes ago, Zimbra said:

I'd argue that the belt is a metonym for the championship and thus it's acceptable usage to use 'belt' to refer to the championship itself.

I agree, although I could see somebody objecting to such metonym use without thinking they were crazy.

And I've sometimes wondered whether the much-discussed WWE ban on "belt" instead of "title" or "championshp" was a result of Vince objecting to precisely this, but his underlings were afraid to ask for clarification and over-interpreted. Like I said, I could see somebody objecting to "vying for the belts" even if I don't share that peeve myself. I find it hard to imagine anybody insisting that the act of hitting somebody with the physical belt only be referred to as "hitting them with the championship".

Though of course it's entirely possible Vince is in fact completely batshit regarding his linguistic preferences, as in other matters.

[twiztor]

yeah, i use the belt/title/championship terms interchangably, my prior post was meant tongue-in-cheek.

[For Great Justice]

4 hours ago, tbarrie said:

I mean, Russo is completely correct, it's just the conclusion he draws next is nonsense. Yes, the belts are props. So was The One Ring in the Jackson's film adaptation of Lord of the Rings, or the briefcase in Pulp Fiction. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as important in-story!

I was today years old when it dawned on me that title belts are wrestling’s MacGuffin

Ive never used that term in a wrestling discussion but, wow, it’s the best possible example in the arts isn’t it.

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, twiztor said:

not to get all Vince McMahon on this, but technically you're correct. the "belt" is a prop. the "Championship" is the honor.

 

1 hour ago, Zimbra said:

I'd argue that the belt is a metonym for the championship and thus it's acceptable usage to use 'belt' to refer to the championship itself.

You can't hit a person over the head with an abstract idea or something that is represented by something else, nor can it be worn around one's waist or on the shoulder.  The physical object represents the position and accomplishment of champion.  I don't mind a wrestler saying, "my goal is to win the championship."  But hearing someone say, "he took the championship and hit his opponent with it" drives me all the way up the fucking wall.

Edited October 23, 2024 by Technico Support