AEW - OCTOBER 2024

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, JLowe said:

There should be no more than 2 ladder matches a year. There should be no more than one table spot on the free TV shows per PPV cycle. 

Less means more.

[SovietShooter]

2 hours ago, JLowe said:

There should be no more than 2 ladder matches a year. There should be no more than one table spot on the free TV shows per PPV cycle. 

Someone correct me if I am incorrect here, but I do not believe CMLL proper has ever had a ladder match. I cannot recall a table spot at all in the 20+ years that I've watched.  I remember a chair being involved in a match maybe a handful of times. They have a cage match once a year, max, and it is always an multi-man "last guy loses hair/mask" match on a major show.  Blood in Arena Mexico is rare enough that when it happens it is either pure hard way, or building to something big, and only happens once or twice a year; It happens more often in Puebla or GDL, but is still exceptionally rare. Major stars get fired for doing too much, or unauthorized, brawling. 

So, you can run a major wrestling promotion without doing any of these crazy matches, stipulations, and stuff. Not that the US tv wrestling audience would ever accept a promotion being as conservative in their presentation as this, but my point is they could do this stuff a lot less to make the big spots stand out, and it would still work. 

[SovietShooter]

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Edited October 26, 2024 by SovietShooter
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[ka-to]

I think that there should be more disqualifications and count outs. Just not double DQ and count outs as BS finishes. Need to show that there are rules to follow.

Multi-person matches should be elimination. They should also be tag rules most of the time. Undercard flippy guys can do whatever because those matches don't mean anything.

[zendragon]

Video | Facebook

Kyle Fletcher's new gimmick... The Hippy Dippy Weatherman!

[Technico Support]

Watching Collision right now and holy shit, Kyle Fletcher’s buzz cut looks bad, too!  This is amazing.  He just has a weirdly shaped head and a very strange hairline.  It’s fascinating.  It doesn’t help that, from the looks of it, he shaved the top with like a 2 or 3 guard, and did the sides with one lower.  This shit is wild.  His hairline is shaped like the red part of Iron Man’s helmet.  

I thought the “Kyle Fletcher is just physically unable to get a good haircut” trend would end, but the legend continues.

Edited October 27, 2024 by Technico Support

[YouHaveUntil5]

I think there should be less 9 counts on the floor where the person scrambles back in. 

[SovietShooter]

25 minutes ago, YouHaveUntil5 said:

I think there should be less 9 counts on the floor where the person scrambles back in. 

In this day and age with crazy dives and big bumps on the apron & floor, countouts should be a legitimate finished that happens a lot more often.

[tbarrie]

33 minutes ago, YouHaveUntil5 said:

I think there should be less 9 counts on the floor where the person scrambles back in. 

Particularly when the person doesn't even start moving until the count of 9. Once in a while is fine, but it's overused now.

7 minutes ago, SovietShooter said:

In this day and age with crazy dives and big bumps on the apron & floor, countouts should be a legitimate finished that happens a lot more often.

Darby Allin and The Butcher did it right a couple of years back. It does need to happen more often.

[Casey]

I still think AEW should’ve went the ECW route from the beginning and everything is legal and no DQs or count-outs. They used to tread that line pretty closely with “what the refs allowed” during the course of a match. But not so much anymore.

[ka-to]

2 hours ago, YouHaveUntil5 said:

I think there should be less 9 counts on the floor where the person scrambles back in. 

There should be 9 counts when 1 person gets in the ring and the other person looses on the 10 count. When one guy is out of the ring and then his opponent follows him out the ref should be doing two separate 10 counts. When rules matter, breaking the rules also matter. 

[tbarrie]

24 minutes ago, Casey said:

I still think AEW should’ve went the ECW route from the beginning and everything is legal and no DQs or count-outs.

Man, I don't want to shit on other people's tastes, but that sounds horrible to me.

16 minutes ago, ka-to said:

When rules matter, breaking the rules also matter. 

Exactly. Look at how the lack of enforcement of the tag rules kind of bit into FTR's gimmick (when they were heels and actually had a proper gimmick). You had to ask yourself why Dax and Cash were being all clever and sneaky to get their double-teaming in behind the ref's back when Santana and Ortiz or the Young Bucks could just stay in the ring and hit tandem moves uninterrupted for five minutes. And there was never a real answer to that.

[Casey]

I know I’m in the super minority here because I don’t dissect and analyze wrestling but holy shit I don’t care at all about the tag rope thing and all of that discourse was so lame. It’s also a reason I’ve hated JR on commentary since he left WWE. He points out stuff I would never even think (or care) about, like the tag rope bullshit or someone taunting the crowd instead of going for a pin off a transition move or whatever. I’ve literally never noticed a wrestler on the apron holding the rope or not unless it’s pointed out to me. But I also don’t care if a Young Buck or Lucha Bro or whoever wants to be in the ring for 20 seconds to do a super contrived spot with their partner, because all of this shit is fake anyway so, hey, entertain me bud.

There was just a conversation a few posts up about AEW moving more towards traditional American TV wrestling instead of it being the super indie or whatever that it “was” at the beginning. My opinion, leaning more on DQs and count outs and refs having more control over the wrestlers and shit is just another thing that WWE, WCW, NWA, whatever all did. None of them had an atmosphere of “just do whatever”, which was the rule set of ECW. Doesn’t mean every match is going to be a gore fest, or have tables or chairs or whatever. 

Edited October 28, 2024 by Casey

[Technico Support]

9 hours ago, ka-to said:

When one guy is out of the ring and then his opponent follows him out the ref should be doing two separate 10 counts

That doesn’t work because the second guy out of the ring (let’s say he waits until the ref is at 5) could just sit on his opponent until 10, then get back in while he has 5 to spare.  

[NikoBaltimore]

On 10/27/2024 at 5:40 AM, zendragon said:

Video | Facebook

Kyle Fletcher's new gimmick... The Hippy Dippy Weatherman!

He looks like most guys from damn near every 90s Eurodance video.  Which I'm pretty nostalgic for so it's all good with me but like Technico said the legend continues.

Also, for as often he said it I would cackle if he can slip in a "Oh, my goodness!" during a promo for giggles.

Edited October 28, 2024 by NikoBaltimore

[Technico Support]

9 hours ago, Casey said:

I know I’m in the super minority here because I don’t dissect and analyze wrestling but holy shit I don’t care at all about the tag rope thing and all of that discourse was so lame. It’s also a reason I’ve hated JR on commentary since he left WWE. He points out stuff I would never even think (or care) about, like the tag rope bullshit or someone taunting the crowd instead of going for a pin off a transition move or whatever. I’ve literally never noticed a wrestler on the apron holding the rope or not unless it’s pointed out to me. But I also don’t care if a Young Buck or Lucha Bro or whoever wants to be in the ring for 20 seconds to do a super contrived spot with their partner, because all of this shit is fake anyway so, hey, entertain me bud.

There was just a conversation a few posts up about AEW moving more towards traditional American TV wrestling instead of it being the super indie or whatever that it “was” at the beginning. My opinion, leaning more on DQs and count outs and refs having more control over the wrestlers and shit is just another thing that WWE, WCW, NWA, whatever all did. None of them had an atmosphere of “just do whatever”, which was the rule set of ECW. Doesn’t mean every match is going to be a gore fest, or have tables or chairs or whatever. 

Yes to all this.  The old heads like Cornette saying "the rules are there so the heel gets heat when he breaks em!" is somewhat true but hey, wrestling has been around for damn near a century...maybe we can try different things.  You mention ECW.  Heels there still got heat and they had no rules at all.  I don't mind the occasional DQ or whatever in AEW, as long as it doesn't become a chickenshit WWE booking crutch where it's clear that the booker just didn't want to do a finish and just needed to get out of the match he booked.  At the same time, I like AEW being more loose.  It should be the promotion for party matches and wild shit.  PWG is AEW's DNA and they had like one or two DQs in the 10+ years I watched them.  Wrestling changes.  I don't think modern fans want to watch Zbyszko style stalling or Lawler playing hide the fake gimmick for a half hour because OMG THINK OF THE HEAT.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Technico Support

[Matt D]

At the end of the day, it's storytelling, right? Shine/Heat/Comeback. The story structures that worked in novels and movies a hundred years ago generally work now. What is different might be the acting style or the filming style or the syntax and diction. Occasionally you'll get something post-modern or experimental but in general storytelling is generally consistent because it works. I 100% believe that if MJF came out stalling and denying the crowd what they actually wanted at Wembley, it would have been an amazing feeling of emotion and release and joy when Ospreay finally got let off the chain ten minutes into the match and it would have been far better than the rehash of their first match (but smaller) that we ultimately got. 

There are differences and sometimes those differences bleed into people wanting to see "both these guys!" and "fight forever!" and I generally think that's detrimental. You disagree. That's fine. But every other bit of fictional art out there is in the business of moving people's hearts and minds to some degree (manipulating them!). I don't see why wrestling should be any different. 

There are finite limits to how exciting a match can be with pure athleticism. It gets maxed out at some point due to human limitations. There are no limitations on the heart and mind. You can have ever increasing spots and athleticism, but those are means. The ultimate end is in the storytelling and it's crazy to not use every tool at your disposal (including stalling and heatseeking) in order to achieve the end of moving people. 

[HarryArchieGus]

14 hours ago, tbarrie said:

Man, I don't want to shit on other people's tastes, but that sounds horrible to me.

Exactly. Look at how the lack of enforcement of the tag rules kind of bit into FTR's gimmick (when they were heels and actually had a proper gimmick). You had to ask yourself why Dax and Cash were being all clever and sneaky to get their double-teaming in behind the ref's back when Santana and Ortiz or the Young Bucks could just stay in the ring and hit tandem moves uninterrupted for five minutes. And there was never a real answer to that.

I completely agree on the former. Not at all into illogical ECW rules with every tag match essentially being tornado rules or having a lack of logic. A drastic change to the rules is absolutely the last thing aew needs. What is needed, as always, is enough creative/performer awareness that the cheating doesnt make the refs look ridiculous. 

I agree with your latter comment as well, but I do think the loose 10 counts, after that first couple months, have been generally fine. Fenix/Penta were always the worst perpetrators, but more for coming and going as they saw fit. The Bros are gonna need to make some serious adjustments to fit in on the otherside. It’ll be interesting to see if they can.

On 10/26/2024 at 11:13 PM, ka-to said:

I think that there should be more disqualifications and count outs. Just not double DQ and count outs as BS finishes. Need to show that there are rules to follow.

Multi-person matches should be elimination. They should also be tag rules most of the time. Undercard flippy guys can do whatever because those matches don't mean anything.

I agree on elimination for all multi-ways. It’s just far more satisfying - there’s an ecw formula that would work. As for DQs and Count outs, to each their own, I’ve always been very grateful for aew’s minimum of shit finishes. It also contributes to the excitement pre-match as to who is going to win. On the wwe side when a big match is announced a shit finish still seems like a likely option - especially for tv.

The Butcher/Darby 10 count finish was indeed great and special because they never do it. I don’t see how it would remain special as a regular out.

If I could have a wish for a change, I’d like to see less corner ppl allowed. I wanna see a managers license.

Edited October 28, 2024 by HarryArchieGus

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

4 hours ago, Technico Support said:

Yes to all this.  The old heads like Cornette saying "the rules are there so the heel gets heat when he breaks em!" is somewhat true but hey, wrestling has been around for damn near a century...maybe we can try different things.  You mention ECW.  Heels there still got heat and they had no rules at all.  I don't mind the occasional DQ or whatever in AEW, as long as it doesn't become a chickenshit WWE booking crutch where it's clear that the booker just didn't want to do a finish and just needed to get out of the match he booked.  At the same time, I like AEW being more loose.  It should be the promotion for party matches and wild shit.  PWG is AEW's DNA and they had like one or two DQs in the 10+ years I watched them.  Wrestling changes.  I don't think modern fans want to watch Zbyszko style stalling or Lawler playing hide the fake gimmick for a half hour because OMG THINK OF THE HEAT.

Anything that's done well can work. The problem is that most people don't do those spots well and/or don't have the emotional connection to the audience to be able to pull off something like that. They think because it worked for Lawler, it'll work for them, without building in the years and years of crowd connection that Lawler had built. See also: 95% of FTR's catalogue.

It's the same thing as when people want to do matches full of spots with no connective tissue to them (I guess that's what a "party match" is, I've never heard that term and if there's no pizza involved then it sure ain't a party I want to see). For a stunt show, it's a fine show of athleticism, but if you don't connect to anyone, what's the point? It's why we can watch car crashes with people we don't know and be fine, but if someone we love is in one, we don't even want to see the impact of the car until we know they're okay.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Stefanie Sparkleface

[ka-to]

6 hours ago, Technico Support said:

That doesn’t work because the second guy out of the ring (let’s say he waits until the ref is at 5) could just sit on his opponent until 10, then get back in while he has 5 to spare.  

That's why it does work.

[HarryArchieGus]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

There are differences and sometimes those differences bleed into people wanting to see "both these guys!" and "fight forever!" and I generally think that's detrimental. You disagree. That's fine. But every other bit of fictional art out there is in the business of moving people's hearts and minds to some degree (manipulating them!). I don't see why wrestling should be any different. 

I'd probably agree on some of what gets to those en-chanted moments, but there are plenty of times when the crowd's appreciation for the fight genuinely boosts the situation. Wouldn't you agree that spending any amount of time appreciating the Mid-90s All Japan catalog lends itself pretty well to appreciating fights beyond traditional babyface/heel framing? 

[Matt D]

4 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I'd probably agree on some of what gets to those en-chanted moments, but there are plenty of times when the crowd's appreciation for the fight genuinely boosts the situation. Wouldn't you agree that spending any amount of time appreciating the Mid-90s All Japan catalog lends itself pretty well to appreciating fights beyond traditional babyface/heel framing? 

There's almost always a level of animosity of them trying to do damage and inflict harm in mid-90s AJPW that I often find missing in modern "fight forever" situations. I'd also argue that the crowds react differently (than they would have in mid 90s AJPW) even when people try to insert that level of animosity. Basically, the crowd doesn't come along for the ride anymore in that specific scenario. But I also intend to tap on AJPW before we get to let's say 95, when it's reached a certain level of escalation. 

[HarryArchieGus]

3 minutes ago, Matt D said:

There's almost always a level of animosity of them trying to do damage and inflict harm in mid-90s AJPW that I often find missing in modern "fight forever" situations. I'd also argue that the crowds react differently (than they would have in mid 90s AJPW) even when people try to insert that level of animosity. Basically, the crowd doesn't come along for the ride anymore in that specific scenario. But I also intend to tap on AJPW before we get to let's say 95, when it's reached a certain level of escalation. 

Well, the bar couldn't not be lowered. We've learned critical lessons from that era. Working is better. Health-wise. That said, I think we experience often enough a reasonable level of animosity. Japanese and American audiences are so incredibly different that it's difficult to compare. Outside of their better drawing markets, it's become more challenging to tell what AEW audiences will ride along for. 

[YouHaveUntil5]

1 hour ago, ka-to said:

That's why it does work.

The count restarts when the second wrestler goes to the floor. 

[Matt D]

1 minute ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Well, the bar couldn't not be lowered. We've learned critical lessons from that era. Working is better. Health-wise. That said, I think we experience often enough a reasonable level of animosity. Japanese and American audiences are so incredibly different that it's difficult to compare. Outside of their better drawing markets, it's become more challenging to tell what AEW audiences will ride along for. 

They rode along for Danielson vs Moxley, but that was a very specific scenario. I'll be curious what they do for Moxley vs Cassidy.