Technico Support Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Seeing Ortiz in the Collision main reminds me, what's Santana doing since coming back? And is it any better or more successful than he could have been just being cool and sticking with Ortiz? Ortiz is now just slotted as being a lower carder who will get a TV match now and then. But Santana doesn't even have that. Meanwhile, I feel like together they' d absolutely be getting more TV time. I totally understand wanting to bet on yourself to see where it gets you, but as Dirty Harry said, a man's got to know his limitations. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewar Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 He beat Ortiz in October, and hasn't wrestled an AEW match since. Sounds like creative doesn't have anything for him. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Let's be honest, they weren't doing much of anything besides being stuck in the Jericho-verse before Santana got hurt. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Listening to Dave and Bryan talking about the attendance issues and problems with the product and a thought occurred to me: a knock on effect of the neverending tidal wave of dishonest bullshit bad faith criticism by all of the worst people since day one is that it's caused the company to block out all the legitimate criticism from serious and reasonable people as well. 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKERyan Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 5 hours ago, Technico Support said: Seeing Ortiz in the Collision main reminds me, what's Santana doing since coming back? And is it any better or more successful than he could have been just being cool and sticking with Ortiz? Ortiz is now just slotted as being a lower carder who will get a TV match now and then. But Santana doesn't even have that. Meanwhile, I feel like together they' d absolutely be getting more TV time. I totally understand wanting to bet on yourself to see where it gets you, but as Dirty Harry said, a man's got to know his limitations. Yeah I mean, it’s pretty clear any plans TK had for them were as a team, and rightfully so. Had Santana not gotten hurt and then had the alleged falling out with Ortiz I have no doubt they would’ve had a tag title run by now. But as singles guys? What’s the value really? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheVileOne Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 6 hours ago, Dewar said: He beat Ortiz in October, and hasn't wrestled an AEW match since. Sounds like creative doesn't have anything for him. This has been a problem with AEW for years. Guys will be in a big feud or win a big match and then just disappear from TV entirely and fall off the face of the Earth. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinit Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 The cheapest ticket available for the show in Toronto in March is $90. I don't think that their ticket price point is doing them any favors. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 13 hours ago, TheVileOne said: This has been a problem with AEW for years. Guys will be in a big feud or win a big match and then just disappear from TV entirely and fall off the face of the Earth. I always was under the impression that's more of a "by-design" roster-rotation thing to keep guys healthy and make them feel more fresh when they return, but I agree entirely that sometimes it feels more like just a straight lack-of-follow-up, which can be a bit frustrating after a big show - I also think a lot of us have simply been trained into that by the Sunday PPV into Raw/Nitro Monday-scheduling, where even the advertising is built around "seeing the fallout from ____! " I have no major issues with the booking since the CC pallette cleansing, but I've definitely picked up on that pattern, especially when certain folks will get consistently used for a handful of weeks at a time even if not involved in a top angle - for example, I think we've seen more of Queen Aminata and The Righteous in one month of 2024 than I think we did in the entire back half of '23. Edit2: I wonder if there's anything in play with routing guys based on where they're flying out of to save on transportation or if there are any '# of dates on contract' or other money situations we're not privvy to which may also be factors Edit: @InfinitMajor problem, agreed. Ticket prices and the lack of a local promotion machine are two of the biggest issues right now (which as Dave intimated, I am hoping can be corrected by the recent ex-WWE hires). Part of me wonders how many of these buildings/price points were set far enough in advance for them to be basing projections off of still having Punk, Andrade, a full-time Danielson, a full-time Sting, a healthy Adam Cole, a healthy MJF, etc. Edited January 24 by Zakk_Sabbath 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: I always was under the impression that's more of a "by-design" roster-rotation thing to keep guys healthy and make them feel more fresh when they return, but I agree entirely that sometimes it feels more like just a straight lack-of-follow-up, which can be a bit frustrating after a big show - I also think a lot of us have simply been trained into that by the Sunday PPV into Raw/Nitro Monday-scheduling, where even the advertising is built around "seeing the fallout from ____! " I would respect this concept a whole lot more if they outright said, just as an example, "Adam Page will be out for 6-8 weeks to recover from his series of matches with Swerve Strickland". Heck, make it like an injury report on a sports team's website, just kayfabe it up for some folks ("Malakai Black is hunting lost souls, will return in approximately one month"). Certain wrestlers are probable, certain wrestlers are questionable, certain wrestlers are doubtful, certain wrestlers are out. Simple. Easy. Drives people to your site/socials. Doesn't make people wonder "well, where's my favorite?" rather than such and such being missing with no explanation. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenalysis Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) They've admitted that they try to pick more local folks for TV, that's why you see lower-card folks pop in and out of rotation. Edited January 24 by Jenalysis 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryArchieGus Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) On 1/23/2024 at 2:38 PM, sabremike said: Listening to Dave and Bryan talking about the attendance issues and problems with the product and a thought occurred to me: a knock on effect of the neverending tidal wave of dishonest bullshit bad faith criticism by all of the worst people since day one is that it's caused the company to block out all the legitimate criticism from serious and reasonable people as well. I agree with a number of the points expressed during that WOR discussion. Dave in particular had a lot logical ideas on offer. I still don’t get the lack of Sting’s last match in (insert city) promotion. Further, I get what you’re saying with the bad faith attention seekers, but I’m not sure there’s a company in my years of watching wrestling that has responded so routinely to constructive criticism. Confusing unattainable utopian visions with realistic expectations is an issue for some. That said, there are things about AEW that will never change. Not unlike most everyone’s daily/weekly/annual habits they swear off as each year comes to a close. The plethora of Title belts for example. Tony clearly loves them where many, many, many of us don’t. Surely the reasoning is, at least in part, for more options to feature and promote the upper level talent. Also, Tony’s inability to switch from a plan (loss of Punk, Devil angle) is probably here to stay, or at least for now, but one can realistically hope that changes with experience. Experience, being able to fail and learning on the job is not something afforded TK/AEW by its critics as often as it oughtta be. Edited January 25 by HarryArchieGus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dewar Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 16 hours ago, Infinit said: The cheapest ticket available for the show in Toronto in March is $90. I don't think that their ticket price point is doing them any favors. Just checked ticketmaster to see this. 65 bucks for a ticket, $22.50 in fees, and then a 7 dollar processing fee on top of that. Like what the hell are these fees for? 2 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefanie Sparkleface Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 5 minutes ago, Dewar said: Just checked ticketmaster to see this. 65 bucks for a ticket, $22.50 in fees, and then a 7 dollar processing fee on top of that. Like what the hell are these fees for? Don't ask that, Ticketmaster charges a fee to answer about fees. 2 3 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curt McGirt Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 "Fees". It makes me think of the cop in Lebowski saying that instead of "leads" and busting up laughing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raziel Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 18 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said: Don't ask that, Ticketmaster charges a fee to answer about fees. Just remember, Eddie Vedder was right about them. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coletti Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 (edited) 1 hour ago, Raziel said: Just remember, Eddie Vedder was right about them. This episode of Your Favorite Band Sucks does a fan-fuckin-tastic job explaining why TM is trash while the artists criticizing them aren't exactly doing the Lord's work, either... https://www.yfbspod.com/ticketmaster-sucks-and-so-does-pearl-jam-taylor-swift-bruce-springsteen-radiohead-beyonce-metallica Edit: oh I should mention that one of the hosts is Tyler Mahan Coe, who's other podcast, Cocaine & Rhinestones, has been lovingly mentioned on these boards before. Edited January 24 by Coletti 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Log Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 1 minute ago, Coletti said: This episode of Your Favorite Band Sucks does a fan-fuckin-tastic job explaining why TM is trash while the artists criticizing them aren't exactly doing the Lord's work, either... https://www.yfbspod.com/ticketmaster-sucks-and-so-does-pearl-jam-taylor-swift-bruce-springsteen-radiohead-beyonce-metallica I recently listened to that, and it was the first thing that popped in my head when Ticketmaster/Vedder came up. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Maybe they are booking local workers if they can sell tickets, like on your low level indy shows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StretchMediatedHypertrophy Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 Thanks for that video link, I only watched a bit but it was very interesting. To be absolutely honest, I think almost all '>pretty small' live events = some of the dumbest way to spend your moneys imaginable. It boggles the mind how much ppl spend, though I guess I'm glad they do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 21 hours ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said: I would respect this concept a whole lot more if they outright said, just as an example, "Adam Page will be out for 6-8 weeks to recover from his series of matches with Swerve Strickland". Heck, make it like an injury report on a sports team's website, just kayfabe it up for some folks ("Malakai Black is hunting lost souls, will return in approximately one month"). Certain wrestlers are probable, certain wrestlers are questionable, certain wrestlers are doubtful, certain wrestlers are out. Simple. Easy. Drives people to your site/socials. Doesn't make people wonder "well, where's my favorite?" rather than such and such being missing with no explanation. Co-signed huge - and there's a nice bit of synchronicity there with your idea and the returning rankings, IMO. If "sports based" is where they want to go, your idea would be a nice added touch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryArchieGus Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 18 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Co-signed huge - and there's a nice bit of synchronicity there with your idea and the returning rankings, IMO. If "sports based" is where they want to go, your idea would be a nice added touch Properly writing off characters is clearly a huge hole in aew creative. On a WOR from a month or so ago Meltzer mentioned legalities being an issue over announcing an injury. It wasn’t a clear statement on the matter, so I’m curious to know more. Regardless, as mentioned, there’s ways around announcing a shoot injury. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 18 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said: Properly writing off characters is clearly a huge hole in aew creative. On a WOR from a month or so ago Meltzer mentioned legalities being an issue over announcing an injury. It wasn’t a clear statement on the matter, so I’m curious to know more. Regardless, as mentioned, there’s ways around announcing a shoot injury. That's an interesting statement - I'm sure it's something innocuous like protecting HIPAA rights or something, but it's certainly curious phrasing as you noted; I'm sure if there's anything beyond that in play, the brilliant detectives on Reddit and Twitter will get to the bottom of it in short order 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godfrey Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 Last year I mentioned AEW seemed to be having an identity crisis and a few folks noticed Dynamite seemed like Raw-lite so I'm happy to hear that they are making efforts to try something different The rankings can be tough to handle, you don't want what happened last time with wrestlers disappearing to a b-show for months at a time doing nothing but squashes and then showing up for a title shot. I think it requires a similar approach to booking a round robin tournament, you have to work backwards from the result you want and ensure that even if two wrestlers don't have a specific beef that at least their individual drives to succeed interact in interesting ways. Really, it's a matter of staying on message, if too many wrestlers are just there to entertain the fans or have goals other than winning and being the best then it takes away from the legitimacy of a ranking system. AEW can do it but I think it'll need more of an iron fist to pull off 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) The issue I have with the rankings is, what does it mean (kayfabe wise) for other belts? In general, secondary titles make no sense in kayfabe but they've been accepted so long that nobody questions them. We all know they exist (IRL) to elevate guys, give midcarders something to do, or both. But if this was real, what purpose would a secondary belt serve? There are no secondary belts in MMA, wrestling's closest real world analogue, because they literally make no sense. So from a ratings perspective, does the TNT, International, or Continental Crown champ automatically get ranked in a certain spot in the top 10? That might work, I guess. But not automatically #1 like the Apter mags would treat the US (NWA) or IC (WWF) titles back in the day, because that makes no sense. Those belts aren't "#1 contender trophies" like ROH used to have. So what's the role of a secondary or tertiary, or whatever the word for four-tiary is, title in this ratings system? Honestly, the only way a secondary belt makes logical sense is if it's a gimmick like X number of successful defenses gets you a world title shot. Maybe instead of a social media blurb and a quick announcement on Collision, TK should have thought this out more and presented it as a segment on the show to explain all this shit. Edited January 25 by Technico Support 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted January 25 Share Posted January 25 (edited) 52 minutes ago, Godfrey said: Last year I mentioned AEW seemed to be having an identity crisis and a few folks noticed Dynamite seemed like Raw-lite so I'm happy to hear that they are making efforts to try something different The rankings can be tough to handle, you don't want what happened last time with wrestlers disappearing to a b-show for months at a time doing nothing but squashes and then showing up for a title shot. I think it requires a similar approach to booking a round robin tournament, you have to work backwards from the result you want and ensure that even if two wrestlers don't have a specific beef that at least their individual drives to succeed interact in interesting ways. Really, it's a matter of staying on message, if too many wrestlers are just there to entertain the fans or have goals other than winning and being the best then it takes away from the legitimacy of a ranking system. AEW can do it but I think it'll need more of an iron fist to pull off All of these are excellent points, and I don't disagree at all - but since you've mentioned it, there are two things I'm hoping will make things a little better this time around: 1) As much as I loved 'em, Dark/Elevation are no more - so while it was somewhat problematic to 'shuffle guys to the B show to win squashes' in the past, this time around we have Collision and Rampage from jump - I'll even lump ROH in here. Though ROH has more in common with Dark (as a streaming-only show) it's still always there should you need someone to climb the rankings for story purposes in a pinch - all it takes is a 30 second clip of the finish during the winner's next entrance on the cable shows. So while you're entirely right in theory, I do think there's a flip side of the coin where it adds a little more cred/raison d'etre to Rampage/Collision/yes, even ROH 2) I'd like to see more of an emphasis on 'unranked' (not necessarily 'unsanctioned' as in no DQ) matches this go around. In the OG-era, the rankings would usually just COINCIDENTALLY happen to work out that way, but I think that lead to too much rigidity in the booking, and predictability in the finishes. Have your title/contender matches built around the rankings, naturally - but if two guys fucking hate each other, and it has nothing to do with a title? No reason you can't *also* send that to the ring, for a best of both worlds situation. Edit: @Technico Support I saw your reply after posting mine, and you also make some great points - it's funny, I never once really considered that the Apter mag approach to it didn't make sense because half those guys never went on to challenge for the top title. This is going back to a convo from months ago (and I can't even remember who was in it with me) but I think this is another reason why it's important for the titles to have their own identities. If there were a clearly established hierarchy of "WHC-> INT-> TNT-> ROH/CC -> FTW" I think the PWI approach (or similar) would be wayyyy easier to implement and maintain Edited January 25 by Zakk_Sabbath 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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