Forbidden Door II - 6/25/2023

[Custos]

Watched my first wrestling show in several months, (and first time back here since DEAN’s sad passing). Coming back fresh I thoroughly enjoyed it, although some parts of the Omega/Will match were a bit too much for me (maybe I need to build up my bloodlust/neck bump tolerance!). Seeing my boy ZSJ mix it up in the big stage and Ishii’s closing showcase in the Bucks match (and that whole match in general) were probably my highlights.
I will look forward to digesting this thread and might give a more detailed response afterwards.

[hobo joe]

3 hours ago, Shartnado said:

 Don't really get Shibata. Don't get Tanahashi. Certainly don't get Okada. Naito? Nope. SANADA? Ok, he did a poison rana, so I get him, kinda, but still not so much.

If you don't get Shibata that's your problem.

Tanahashi's best days are behind him. It's unrealistic to expect 2017 Tanahashi, but to be fair no one's told Tanahashi that so he's still trying.

Watch any match from his 700 day title reign to get Okada. The Bryan injury came just when Okada's matches kick into the next level

Naito clearly wasn't trying tonight, and I'm pretty sure he's been hurt so his best days are probably behind him too.

SANADA's cool, but probably shouldn't be world champ

If you want 2017 NJPW just watch 2017 NJPW.

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

w/r/t my contention that Orangey Boy has been studying his Osaka Pro tapes:

I had somehow TOTALLY FORGOTTEN that he came over here and worked several shows for Osaka Pro (as Fire Ant) in Sept 2011. I was there for pretty much all of those! Kingston was over on the same tour. Chikara and Osaka Pro are two great tastes that taste great together.

https://www.cagematch.net/?id=2&nr=2813&page=4&search=Osaka

[EVA]

7 hours ago, hobo joe said:

If you don't get Shibata that's your problem.

Tanahashi's best days are behind him. It's unrealistic to expect 2017 Tanahashi, but to be fair no one's told Tanahashi that so he's still trying.

Watch any match from his 700 day title reign to get Okada. The Bryan injury came just when Okada's matches kick into the next level

Naito clearly wasn't trying tonight, and I'm pretty sure he's been hurt so his best days are probably behind him too.

SANADA's cool, but probably shouldn't be world champ

If you want 2017 NJPW just watch 2017 NJPW.

Even Okada is more like a Lebron/Kobe 35 from being worked to death by NJPW for the past decade.

[Teflon Turtle]

Yeah...I had this whole big post typed out last night about Forbidden Door viewers not understanding the guys coming over from NJPW or getting the 2016-2019 hype, then the board ate it.

Anyway - age and injuries do play a huge part. But, with the exception of a few guys, New Japan's house style has de-escalated quite a bit in the last few years. Things were getting to the point where you were seeing apron spots in seemingly every other match on a big card, numerous big in-ring bumps right after, and so on. A few reasons have been cited for that (The Elite leaving, NJPW's then-president also leaving or being ousted). Regardless - though it was fun to watch at the time, it was never sustainable. It's not that the wrestlers suck - they aren't wrestling much in that style any longer.

Also...for Forbidden Door, AEW or NJPW have chosen to not spotlight many of the guys  who still wrestle a fast pace or who still have a more high-impact style (EDIT: except Ospreay, obviously. Also, I have no idea how Kenny is still pulling out these huge matches at all, after what he got up to in NJPW). Shingo hasn't had a high-profile singles match in AEW. Neither has Hiromu. Pretty much the entirety of the jr. heavyweight division is left off of matches where they can show what they are really capable of. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Teflon Turtle

[Dolphman 3000]

 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

20 hours ago, SirFozzie said:

turn collision into the zero hour for those shows (and of course, you'd have to move it forward in time.

Idk if I've ever agreed with anything more. I'm late to the party because I fell asleep twice during the show, and had to rewatch last night. Sundays ain't it man, especially for a 4+ hour card. And I'm not even English or Japanese!! Def feel for you Natural, Gord, Ax, and friends.

I think the ideal situation would be hour 1 of Collision as your pre-show, then you hype hour 2 as a 'First Time Ever PPV Simulcast' (but it's still the preshow, c'mon) - then from 10 to 12:30 the top shelf shit comes out on PPV. It seems late for the younger audience, but by the same token, boxing and MMA main events have gone on after midnight since time immorium AFAIK (El Savaje I'm positive knows more about that). Maybe even consider a drop to $44.95 in exchange for making the first hour 'free.' I don't have the data in front of me, obviously, but I think there's a solid chance they could make up the extra $4.95 a head on additional last minute buys, since you've got Collision functioning as a two hour hype commercial, QR code onscreen the whole time.

Timing and platform complaints aside, I enjoyed most of this show. Kenny/Ospreay was beyond anything I imagined. I'm still riding the high a little, being a day late as mentioned, but all in all, I think this could end up being my 4th favorite match of all time. Let's see if it has the staying power.

Okada/Dragon left a little bit to be desired, but I'll join the choir of voices saying this was hopefully an All In/Grand Slam/WK dry run - especially knowing what we know now about the arm injury, opinions on the convulsing sell notwithstanding. I completely understand the legit concern a lot of you have for Danielson's health, and your own (awful) personal experiences with it, and would never begrudge anyone that - I personally enjoyed the line-straddling, but I also realize I'm kind of a weirdo for that, so I still completely sympathize with you Natural, Curt, and Stefanie, and would be fine if he never did it again. This is supposed to be our 'escapism' right? 

Willow is finally becoming the star I knew she was from day one on Dark, and it's awesome to see (though I worry she's gonna get a bit of a rep for being stiff - this is the second time she's busted another gal's nose - sure didn't sound like Storm was working when she was on the ramp talking about 'Stupid bitch!!' - hope I'm wrong!) If they keep this up, I'm telling you, she's gonna end up right there with OC and Darby as kid-friendly merch machine.

Can't say enough about the ten man - i made this comparison in a TV thread the other week, but it's now undeniable: Eddie Kingston IS Puerto Rican Steve Austin. Now let's make some god damn money off it please.

Some stuff was kinda just there, and I have a couple of kinda depressing thoughts about on the aging of Tana, Sting, Jericho, and Punk, but the overall atmosphere (and Ospreay/Omega alone) was enough to elevate almost everything

Edited June 27, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath
Poor math

[Teflon Turtle]

59 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

 

To add to my previous comment about Shingo being one of the guys not getting the Forbidden Door spotlight: he's clearly in character here, but in reality he'd have every right to feel this way. He put on great matches all through the pandemic, was at the top of his company as their world champion. That can't have been easy given the restrictions he was operating under. His reward for that was to be shuffled down the card, seemingly to try and bring some interest and value to the KOPW belt. But now, nobody's predicting him as a G1 winner, and he's not on the Forbidden Door PPV even though he's one of the best pro wrestlers on both the NJPW and AEW roster. 

It's been said multiple times by multiple people, but he and El Desperado were probably the two wrestlers most responsible for carrying NJPW during the pandemic. And they were both on the preshow. (Though I think Despe tried to make the  most of it. I watched Zero Hour yesterday and his mannerisms walking out with Rocky/Best Friends were hilarious, so was his place in their usual hug spot.)

 

[The Natural]

13 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Natty, I love you and all.... but respectfully, this is too many 5* matches.   

If everything reaches perfection, then nothing does. 

I'm a generous scorer, bud xxx.

[The Natural]

LOL.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

13 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

Natty, I love you and all.... but respectfully, this is too many 5* matches.   

If everything reaches perfection, then nothing does. 

This is exactly why in my 25 years online (and 16+ creepin' round here) I've never given a single star rating. I'm too anxious about overrating - I do it with everything! I'm way too much of an 'Everyone tried really, really hard, I hope they had fun and made a lot of money' guy. 

[Jenalysis]

On 6/26/2023 at 12:04 AM, Iron Moose said:

My appraisal of Danielson has plummeted as a consequence of the seizure spot and the anticlimax of the finish.

 

Given that there was a shoot injury, the finish makes sense.  I suspect the seizure spot was an audible by Bryan so they could figure it out after the injury- stupid but forgivable given circumstances.

 

[The Natural]

Going to be cutting it close for Bryan Danielson at All In.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

8 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Going to be cutting it close for Bryan Danielson at All In.

I read here he said 6-8 weeks at the media scrum, FWIW

[Iron Moose]

25 minutes ago, Jenalysis said:

 

Given that there was a shoot injury, the finish makes sense.  I suspect the seizure spot was an audible by Bryan so they could figure it out after the injury- stupid but forgivable given circumstances.

 

Yeah, I posted that before he came out at the scrum and we learned about the arm. It's going to be a tricky match to go back and watch knowing that.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

53 minutes ago, Iron Moose said:

Yeah, I posted that before he came out at the scrum and we learned about the arm. It's going to be a tricky match to go back and watch knowing that.

Agreed. I'm of two minds:

1) What a fucking master, thinking on his feet like that - again, I don't disagree AT ALL with anyone who felt discomfort from it, but considering the alternative (calling it on the fly, with one arm, while wrestling a guy who's first language isn't the same) -  that's some f'n next level ring IQ. I miss DEAN now as I make this comparison, but it was like hearing Tony Romo call a game for the first time on CBS - like just the awareness is so next level compared to not only the average Joe, but probably a bunch of other people in the same locker room 

2) There's, unfortunately, gonna be a little bit of an asterisk now for many. I said it myself in my earlier post, but I'll even admit: I think the idea of 'Oh they MUST be building to another...' is a little wishful thinking on our part because I think many of us feel either 1) they've got a better one in them, 2) they didn't get to (necessarily) tell the story they intended, or 3) both.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Not sure how many people saw the actual match on here but in Mercedes vs. Willow.   Mercedes was having an issue getting her footing on the top rope, she hops down to the floor and breaks her ankle.  She tries to give it a go on one leg and she can't, she can't put any weight on it at all.  So, she herself calls an audible and has Willow powerbomb her and take the win.  The title was quite literally designed to be Mercedes to hold and instead of forcing what was supposed to be the finish she gives it to Willow. 

What's the point I'm making here.  Sometimes shit happens in the ring and you have to think on the fly and I think that's what popped into Bryan's mind. He said at the press conference that he knew his arm was fucked but he had to think about whether to keep it going or go to the finish.  The seizure spot appears to be him stalling in the moment.  

I don't know if that makes it any better or not but some shit went down and the rest of the match had to be improvised.  

[elizium]

I mean, he could have 'improvised' by having the doc check his arm, since it was clearly bothering him the rest of the match anyway, rather than faking a traumatic brain injury

[Matt D]

Made it through the pre-show!

Best Friends/Rocky/Desperado vs Mogul Embassy: I'm glad Rocky got ont he card. I really enjoy watching him hit from weird angles and he worked so hard to make the show happen. I'm kind of losing patience for Taylor/Trent and their "PWG" style of just doing shit whenever they want but it is nice to see them against some fresh opponents. I just don't love Cage hitting a death valley driver on the apron but it leading immediately into a hope spot as Toa missed the senton. Just iffy wrestling to me.  I did love the Desperado spot where he squashed Kaun by having Toa drop toe... held onto him. Anyway, Kaun and Toa looked good in there. That's what matters to me on this one. And the finishing stretch was fun with good teamwork from the Embassy. Really though, I want to see Rocky vs Swerve.

Athena vs Billie Starkz: Beore our fridge died on Sunday, I saw this. I got the sense that Billie really did hurt her ribs early but Athena definitely didn't let up and just let that be the story of the match. Them doing a strike exchange with shotgun dropkicks was a choice. I'd like to see them run his back in ROH. They're building to a Willow vs Athena match where no one should lose, but that's AEW for you.

El Phantasmo vs Stu Grayson: I wonder how many people in the crowd had no idea why Stu wasn't with the Dark Order because they don't watch ROH. Either EL-P is tall or Stu is short. This made me want to see El-P vs Orange Cassidy. Strike exchange here was fine because it was full of character. I'm glad Stu hit his apron senton because both Toa and Billie had missed so far. This was a sprint with a bunch of bombs but didn't outwear its welcome and most importantly, the transitions and counters and kickouts were compelling and believable. The finish was really nice to with the beautiful Fleisch DDT (great basing by Stu!).

United Empire vs LIJ: I have nothing against Chris Bowtie Guy and am glad he's living out his dream or whatever but I really kind of want him to eat a spike pile driver or maybe Cobb's Tour of the Islands thing. Nothing personal. This was an ants-in-the-pants sprint. Some impressive individual spots (like everything Cobb did) but it was all noise. Maybe I would have switched the order of this one and the Chaos tag and then slowed down the latter a bit. This felt like a more dynamic opener. But it wasn't my kind of thing.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

14 minutes ago, elizium said:

I mean, he could have 'improvised' by having the doc check his arm, since it was clearly bothering him the rest of the match anyway, rather than faking a traumatic brain injury

I'm obviously not in the dude's head, but perhaps the thought process was: if doc checks the arm, which is hurt for real, the crowd might wonder why Okada doesn't start attacking it straight away (thinking a shoot is a work) so he went w the inverse? Just spitballing

[Log]

5 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I read here he said 6-8 weeks at the media scrum, FWIW

Why does he need to be out at all? Bob Orton wrestled with a fractured arm for years. 

[John from Cincinnati]

6 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I read here he said 6-8 weeks at the media scrum, FWIW

Brie shared that it’s worse than they thought. 

[TheVileOne]

https://twitter.com/TurnHeelWres/status/1673807168666058752 

[Peck]

1 hour ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Brie shared that it’s worse than they thought. 

A leather pad should do the trick.

 

[The Natural]

I think AEW posted Bryan Danielson's full The Final Countdown entrance on Twitter. Please could someone do me a solid and post it here? Looking for/posting Twitter is a nightmare on the tablet. Thanks in advance!

Edited June 28, 2023 by The Natural