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March 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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Wrestling is littered with guys who though they were better than they were. Hunter is possibly the best of that bunch, and one of the few who got to try to pull it off.

He was a good character worker, but not the kind you build a promotion around. They tried it anyway.

He had charisma, but not the kind to break out into mainstream crossover success. They tried it anyway.

He was a good wrestler, but not a superworker whose strengths lent themselves to epic in-ring classics. They tried it anyway.

He had a good physique. So they booked him in a posedown with Scott Steiner.

He had a couple of storylines where he was devious and manipulative. So they dubbed him the Cerebral Assassin and had him... hit people with sledgehammers and play-act necrophilia.

He was ultimately, ironically, a solid B+.

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2 hours ago, Ultimo Necro said:

 

Regardless of anything else I think his place in wrestling will always be as one of the hardest working guys in the business.  He was rarely in anything other than spectacular shape in ring, somehow stayed clear of the demons of the kliq, poured a ton of time and energy into NXT.

 

He was very dedicated,  he was very good but I don't think he was this all time great he was precieved to be. I watched the first televised triple threat match on Raw with him ,Owen and Goldust today on Instagram and I remember I enjoyed his work so much as the Greenwich snob right up to before DX was formed. He was so good as taking a beating with his Flair esq bumps early on. He was some really good matches with Mero, Goldust, Mankind and guys at that level at the early part of his run. He had some good matches with Rock too later as a Face because it was like up to that point he was really still trying to prove he should be in the main event spot. Being the overly dominant heel champ in a babyface territory really hurt things especially once Austin and Rock was gone. 

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12 hours ago, RunningFromAmerica said:

HHH obviously got a lot of shit talked about him, and I don't have clean hands in that regard by any means. His heat with the internetz basically started because WWE didn't see enough in RVD or Booker T too give them that greenlight push, amplified with some...tasteless creative choices.

I always vehemently disagreed with the idea that Kane, Booker T, RVD and an old Scott Steiner were held back. 

Those were the contenders at the time to challenge Hunter and none of them were top level guys, they all reached whatever ceiling they had. 

RVD for example was given the chance to main event WWE and usher in a new era of ECW and he would rather get pulled over with drugs in the car than to take his role seriously. 

Hunter was a very steady performer they didn't have to worry about. RAW was in a transition period and Triple H was the last proven draw they had on that brand. Yes, he was a proven draw because his 2000 heel run was a very successful period. The Rock should get most of the credit but Hunter was the top heel he had to play off. 

Once WWE did get some fresh talent on the brand, Hunter put them over. He put over Batista on 3 consecutive PPVs and cemented his status. He put over Cena at WrestleMania as well. He did what was best for the business in those feuds. 

Of course he also protected his spot but show me a main eventer who hasn't..

Here's the deal. The IWC was jealous of the situation Hunter found himself in. They never let it go. They could cry until the cows come home about friggin' Kane not getting enough rub but does anyone want to stick their neck out for Glen Jacobs now? Maybe Hunter knew and did us all a favor ? 

Oh one more thing..  Goldberg. Fuck Goldberg. He ended Bret's career and never called to even check on him. Boo hoo he didn't win the Elimination Chamber and didn't look OP for a night.. poor Bill. He shouldn't have beaten The Rock either, a young Niners was there in attendance at the Worcester Centrum. We were all behind Hollywood Rock. At least Goldberg still gets the Saudi paydays. He survived. A real main eventer wouldn't view a blonde wig as a career changer. Imagine The Rock not being able to recover because he wore a blonde wig. 

Take it easy Hunter. Spend time with your daughters, thank you for all the memories and also NXT.

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1 minute ago, Kevin Wilson said:

Anyone that does an over-the-top defense of HHH full of questionable "facts" and actually uses the term "best for business" in the process is clearly a troll.

Show me the parts that were wrong

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I will say with regard to Booker/Steiner/RVD that in retrospect, my own perception of HHH's handling of them was probably colored by the fact that all three of those guys came from other then-recently-folded promotions that even in their dying days were infinitely more enjoyable for me personally than what HHH was doing on top at that time

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I've never been a fan of HHH but even when I don't like someone I can still try and look at them objectively to try and see positive things they've brought to the table, or realize why others might enjoy them. The WM30 bout with Daninelson is the last time I can remember him having a decent match, but then again if you can't have a good outing with Danielson then you're really putrid. Is there any case of him having a good match with someone significantly less good than he was?

His work with NXT is a big mark in his favor, and most of the feedback I've heard from guys who worked with him during that period have positive things to say about him.

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1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

RVD for example was given the chance to main event WWE and usher in a new era of ECW and he would rather get pulled over with drugs in the car than to take his role seriously. 

I always thought the reaction to this was, no pun intended, an extreme overreaction. Two notes:

1) I somehow doubt he wanted to get pulled over.

2) He was busted for 18 grams of pot and five Vicodins, the latter of which was a charge thrown out when he produced a prescription. You mean to tell me the guy who consistently referenced pot for over a decade got busted for a relatively miniscule amount of pot? Shock of shocks.

So you're going to throw out your entire booking plans and third brand expansion because the guy who used to have shirts that say RVD 4:20 and appeared in High Times magazine got caught with barely over half an ounce of pot? After you've employed him for five years? Seriously?

I don't know. Seems strange to me.

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1 hour ago, HumanChessgame said:

I've never been a fan of HHH but even when I don't like someone I can still try and look at them objectively to try and see positive things they've brought to the table, or realize why others might enjoy them. The WM30 bout with Daninelson is the last time I can remember him having a decent match, but then again if you can't have a good outing with Danielson then you're really putrid. Is there any case of him having a good match with someone significantly less good than he was?

His work with NXT is a big mark in his favor, and most of the feedback I've heard from guys who worked with him during that period have positive things to say about him.

I think Triple H had fairly decent to good TV matches with Test, Big Show, Bubba Ray, Spike Dudley, Taka Michinoku, and Tajiri.

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Reportedly Cody Rhodes will be selected by Vince to face Seth. I've read something about Cody being WWE EVP, I'm not so sure about that part.

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Edited by Blue Dragon
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4 minutes ago, Blue Dragon said:

Reportedly Cody Rhodes will be selected by Vince to face Seth. I've read something about Cody being WWE EVP, I'm not so sure about that part.

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Looks like a Wrestling News Now thumbnail

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5 hours ago, kafkonia said:

Wrestling is littered with guys who though they were better than they were. Hunter is possibly the best of that bunch, and one of the few who got to try to pull it off.

He was a good character worker, but not the kind you build a promotion around. They tried it anyway.

He had charisma, but not the kind to break out into mainstream crossover success. They tried it anyway.

He was a good wrestler, but not a superworker whose strengths lent themselves to epic in-ring classics. They tried it anyway.

He had a good physique. So they booked him in a posedown with Scott Steiner.

He had a couple of storylines where he was devious and manipulative. So they dubbed him the Cerebral Assassin and had him... hit people with sledgehammers and play-act necrophilia.

He was ultimately, ironically, a solid B+.

Much like Jim Cornette said, he was the guy who worked with the guy who drew the money. And there's nothing wrong with that

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Booker had not hit his ceiling by the HHH match. He was WAYYYY over after the team with Goldust ended and badly needed that win to cement him as a top guy. 

I don't think Booker is a great worker or anything, but there's no way to watch Booker catch fire in the run-up to that match and make the argument that he'd hit his ceiling. 

HHH's best TV match is probably against Rikishi in 2000. For a guy who worked on TV for so many years, he has a shocking lack of quality TV matches. 

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1 hour ago, Phil4126 said:

Much like Jim Cornette said, he was the guy who worked with the guy who drew the money. And there's nothing wrong with that

The issue though is, it hurt business by giving him so much time or in his case, giving himself so much time on top over guys that were ready to be the next top guy. He changed the formula of the Top guy of the brand being the babyface. Until Cena came along and even when he was the top Babyface champ , they rejected him.

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I hate to make it seem like I'm shitting on HHH because I,  almost shed a tear watching him speak about his health situation and his kids. I've enjoyed different parts of his career and there's been part I haven't and I've always thought he has a great mind for the business. In fact I believe especially as he stopped being full time inring he was a better asset to the company even still having to compromise with the boss's ultimate decisions obviously but I do believe when you are in the trenches as a full time worker alot of your politicking is based off self preservation 

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Aside from the reign of terror in 2002-2003 where Booker should have won at WM 19 and Goldberg in the elimination chamber, I always thought Triple H was a solid champion. He just wanted to be Ric Flair without all of Flairs baggage.

I think he redeemed himself for all that hate the iwc had him with nxt. His nxt had plenty of stars for the wwe. It's not his fault that Vince didn't see anything in those people.

If given the chance he probably could be a competent head of a show but thats never happening until Vince is gone.

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7 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

meanwhile, Buff Bagwell's twitter is a ride

this was his response to a Twitter rando attempting transphobia in his responses in a thread that started with this:

In other Bagwell news, he also appears to be DDP's next reclamation project.

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The Booker stuff is way, way overdone. It was a very poor taste angle (who’d have thought the carny world of pro-wrestling would indulge in poor, gutter taste sporadically) but as a talent he’d fallen pretty flat after the Invasion stuff and got a bit of steam going only as part of a novelty tag team. Not really sufficient material to merit the Title being strapped to him given the roster they had at the time. Besides, over the next 12 months he’d wear basically every other title in the company and eventually take the world title too. Hardly a total burial. 
 

The very next quarter they ran the H/Goldberg program (which 100% will have been in the booking pipeline anyway during the H/Booker program), which wouldn’t have worked with Booker at head. H then also dropped the title very next WM to Benoit. So, yeah, all a bit smarky conspiracy theorist territory. 

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12 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I always thought the reaction to this was, no pun intended, an extreme overreaction. Two notes:

1) I somehow doubt he wanted to get pulled over.

2) He was busted for 18 grams of pot and five Vicodins, the latter of which was a charge thrown out when he produced a prescription. You mean to tell me the guy who consistently referenced pot for over a decade got busted for a relatively miniscule amount of pot? Shock of shocks.

So you're going to throw out your entire booking plans and third brand expansion because the guy who used to have shirts that say RVD 4:20 and appeared in High Times magazine got caught with barely over half an ounce of pot? After you've employed him for five years? Seriously?

I don't know. Seems strange to me.

And apparently Sabu was willing to take the rap for the whole thing but RVD wouldn't let him (IIRC, Sabu said that in a shoot interview). You'd think that would've scored some points with Vince for him.

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12 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I always thought the reaction to this was, no pun intended, an extreme overreaction. Two notes:

1) I somehow doubt he wanted to get pulled over.

2) He was busted for 18 grams of pot and five Vicodins, the latter of which was a charge thrown out when he produced a prescription. You mean to tell me the guy who consistently referenced pot for over a decade got busted for a relatively miniscule amount of pot? Shock of shocks.

So you're going to throw out your entire booking plans and third brand expansion because the guy who used to have shirts that say RVD 4:20 and appeared in High Times magazine got caught with barely over half an ounce of pot? 

1. That doesn't matter, a lot of people don't mean to do something, we don't know what was going through his mind.

2. Yes, they did scrap the booking plans and I'm not sure what there is to argue over. They were front page news with that arrest, I remember it well. Anytime you embarrass your employer all bets are off, I don't have any sympathy for that, the solution isn't "they were too harsh" the solution is maybe don't drive around with drugs in the car. 

I get it, people like RVD waayyy more than Triple H but one was a professional who took especially the business side of wrestling very seriously and the other was just happy to be there and the money afforded him to do other things he'd rather do. I will not fault a man who worked harder at his craft. 

Most here aren't going to agree because again they are clouded by a short period of time on the RAW brand where a couple of their favorites didn't win when they "should have" and will throw out the rest of Hunter's career because of it.

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9 hours ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

HHH's best TV match is probably against Rikishi in 2000. For a guy who worked on TV for so many years, he has a shocking lack of quality TV matches. 

And his batting average on the other end of the spectrum isn’t great either. Just looking at Wrestlemania, since that’s key to WWE mythology, for every Bryan match, Rousey tag, or triple threat, there are relative duds like the matches against Sting, Sheamus, and Booker, to bombs like the Orton and Reigns main events. 

Also, however fun the shows were for a bit, had his visions for NXT ultimately won out, I think it would have been a disaster for the global wrestling scene. The last thing anyone but WWE needs is the whole industry being pop-up franchises/a collection of corporate IP action figures. 

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6 hours ago, Phantom Lord said:

I think he redeemed himself for all that hate the iwc had him with nxt.

Just based off this thread I would say that's not the case. Nobody is even making a strong argument for these guys he supposedly held back. 

Booker T is the best case to be made, Booker T probably should have won at least the WM19 feud (putting the Goldberg excuse aside). They had a chance with RVD in 2001 if they really wanted it, he was the most over guy on the invasion angle but Stone Cold wasn't going to put him over, whether you blame the company or Stone Cold himself is up to you. Speaking of Stone Cold, he flat out refused the job to Lesnar and people here make every excuse in the book for it, Hunter laid down for Batista and Cena several times, Stone Cold doesn't catch any hate from the iwc for the Lesnar thing yet another double standard and why these arguments cannot be taken seriously.

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11 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

1. That doesn't matter, a lot of people don't mean to do something, we don't know what was going through his mind.

2. Yes, they did scrap the booking plans and I'm not sure what there is to argue over. They were front page news with that arrest, I remember it well. Anytime you embarrass your employer all bets are off, I don't have any sympathy for that, the solution isn't "they were too harsh" the solution is maybe don't drive around with drugs in the car. 

I get it, people like RVD waayyy more than Triple H but one was a professional who took especially the business side of wrestling very seriously and the other was just happy to be there and the money afforded him to do other things he'd rather do. I will not fault a man who worked harder at his craft. 

Most here aren't going to agree because again they are clouded by a short period of time on the RAW brand where a couple of their favorites didn't win when they "should have" and will throw out the rest of Hunter's career because of it.

"Triple H was the professional who took the business side of wrestling very seriously" is especially rich considering he was the wheelman for a group of wrestlers who were basically too inebriated to drive, and that's how he got into WWE hierarchy. Imagine if he had been pulled over while driving the rest of the Kliq around when they were taking what folks like Kevin Nash claimed they were taking, how different your argument would be today. Your argument is basically "RVD should have gotten a wheelman".

Especially when cops can essentially arrest you for any reason in states with reasonable suspicion laws. If you're famous, that'll become front page news too, but your release without charges will be on page 18. Should that be a reason to change booking plans?

RVD's drug charges were tantamount to a speeding ticket in terms of the legal punishment he got (IIRC it was a $150 fine). Should we change booking plans over a speeding ticket?

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