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June 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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26 minutes ago, twiztor said:

Think about it as race instead of sex. Would you want all your black wrestlers shuffled off to their own show? absolutely not, and it would be viewed as racist segregation. I think that alone is why you won't see an exclusively female show.

That’s not really an apt comparison. Almost every major sport has separate men’s and women’s leagues. 
 

If they started an all-women show and stuck it at midnight on Saturday, then it’d be a demotion. If they gave it NXT’s time slot on USA or something, I think it would be more of a showcase. 

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They only did the first Revolution as a make-good after the women were banned from the Saudi shows. But then the Saudis started allowing the Women to wrestle, so there's was nothing to make good for (in Vince's mind, anyway).

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1 hour ago, Log said:

That’s not really an apt comparison. Almost every major sport has separate men’s and women’s leagues. 
 

If they started an all-women show and stuck it at midnight on Saturday, then it’d be a demotion. If they gave it NXT’s time slot on USA or something, I think it would be more of a showcase. 

i didn't think about your first point, and i think that is a valid viewpoint. i guess i just don't have faith that WWE would do justice to a split like this. Especially in 2021, when social media grabs onto every misstep. 

i agree wholeheartedly with your second point, with the caveat that WWE would need to offer the same level of presentation/writing/etc. as the men's wrestling shows. 

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17 hours ago, just drew said:

If I did that I'm sorry. I try to save my vitriol for the Jackson family, where such a thing is warranted. 

 

I've always kind of rooted for Cardona, because he seemed to just want an opportunity,

 

I haven't felt like he "just wanted an opportunity" since his initial push was killed.  He got himself over and the company squashed him, so he just collected a paycheck doing almost nothing until he was finally let go.  At any time in those 8-10 years he could have elected to not re-sign and instead gone out on his own and "bet on himself," as they say.  After Cody got him some AEW dates that led to nothing and he apparently just did a few uninspired, WWE-style matches in Impact, I figured he didn't really care and would just fade away.   I'm pleasantly surprised that he's actually trying the indy route now, though working Nick Gage of all people feels like an over-correction 😛

 

15 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Look at all the flack someone got for saying the best wrestler in not his companys champion. 

if you dont tow the company line, their fans (and even workers) will pillory you. 

Yeah man, poor JR, just expressing his opinion and getting pilloried by those AEW marks.  It's not like he's acted every step of the way like he can't stand the promotion he works for and this was just the latest thing.

Come on.  There are plenty of people who could say another company's worker was the best and would not get the flack Ross did.  If Daniel Bryan said Okada was the best in the world, nobody would bat an eyelash.  Ross was "pilloried" because the Orton thing was a continuation of his typical bullshit.

 

Edited by Technico Support
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8 hours ago, AxB said:

It's just ironic to me, when you think how insanely over NXT was at one point. When fans were buying fruit baskets and shit, and Tye Dillinger would get a huge pop for drawing number Ten in the Royal Rumble. At that time, NXT had the totally uncritical "We love everything!!" fanbase that WWE lovers now accuse AEW of having. Even though the fact that Shawn Spears isn't Tye Dillinger over immediately disproves that theory.

I personally enjoyed NXT the most when it felt experimental and guys could get a chance to work on gimmicks and presentation while you maybe had a few polished guys on top who weren't super big names yet. Now it feels like a reflection of ROH and I just am not invested in whatever sub-220 pound, super cut, probably has a beard guy they have that week. This is when they lost me. I sometimes poke my head in to see what Cameron Grimes is doing or where we are with Dexter Lumis and Indy but I don't think I've actually watched a full match of even theirs in months. 

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I see a comparison between peak NXT and peak American Idol. What made American Idol a pop culture phenomenon is it completely delivered on what it was promising. The viewers were told they were deciding on who was going to be the next pop sensation and the winners went on to be some of the biggest names in the industry. Today there are still a bunch of music competition shows but they are no longer producing stars. 

Similarly, during peak NXT, not only were you getting quality matches, you felt like you were watching a bunch of talents who were going to get called up and run the place. Initially, some of the talents did big things right out of the gate. However, after years of call ups faltering and not doing much of anything combined with talents overstaying their welcome, NXT is just another wrestling show.  

 

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29 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Imagine if we had gotten the rumored all women's show in the late 90s.

Good lord. Sable, Debra, and Stacy Carter as main eventers with Russo/Ferrera at the helm... I almost guarantee by week 5 it would have turned into a weird no-ring combination of telenovela and WCW Backstage Assault

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4 hours ago, Log said:

That’s not really an apt comparison. Almost every major sport has separate men’s and women’s leagues. 
 

If they started an all-women show and stuck it at midnight on Saturday, then it’d be a demotion. If they gave it NXT’s time slot on USA or something, I think it would be more of a showcase. 

 

(Warning lots of boring math calculations on the tail end of my reply here lol)

The WNBA draws in significantly less fans than the NBA. The WNBA gets much lower ratings than the NBA. This is fine in real sports, because it's based on real competition. The athletes are playing to win games. It's not part of their job to draw in crowds or pull a rating. And largely their contracts are not structured based on the financial success of butts in seats.

Where as in WWE the contracts are based on those key indicators. You get your downside guarantee plus a percentage of the revenue for every show you work. It's largely discretionary. Even still if a female performer get .05% of the gate to a packed Smackdown taping or a sold out PPV that's going to be significantly more money than being on an all women's show that will not draw as much revenue as Smackdown or a sold out PPV. Segregating them is a demotion. Yes they will get more tv time and have better opportunities to tell stories. But without restructuring how they get paid, they will all start making significantly less money.

For instance :

Someone lower on the card that doesn't get much tv but deserves to, like say a Naomi... in this new theoretical model could make more money right? Totally making up numbers here for demonstration purposes. But lets say she works one Smackdown a month and .05% works out to be $1,000. So she gets $1,000 bonus on top of her downside for the month. Then say she is on all four weeks of The All Women's program in a month, say .05% of that is only $300 due to lower drawing houses. But she gets that four times because she is on every episode. So $1000 as is, but $1200 in the new model. So yes she makes slightly more money.... but what kills it is the top earning women would make SIGNIFICANTLY less.

Let's say Charlotte gets 2% for every Raw, which would be $8,000 in our hypothetical numbers. She's on all four Raws in a month. That's $32,000 a month. Now if she gets demoted to an All Women's Program that draws in less revenue and that 2% equates to only $1,200 now. So in the new model she makes $4,800 in a month being on all four episodes vs the old model making $32,000 for working the same amount on the main show. That's the reality of how WWE contracts are structured. It will never ever happen and never work because you would need all the women to be on board with it, and the important top of the card women aren't going to want to take huge pay cuts so the lower end of the spectrum can make slightly more money / get more tv time.

You can question if an all women's show would fall off that much vs a regular WWE roster show. But the trends in real spots, the smaller building they ran Evolution in, the lack of ever doing it again, and the lack of the biggest draws like Roman Reigns being involved... it's a pretty safe bet you're not gonna sell out four 20,000 seaters a month like Raw & Smackdown does. I know math is boring. But the math just doesn't support this idea.

Edited by NoFistsJustFlips
Fixing math mistake
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35 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Good lord. Sable, Debra, and Stacy Carter as main eventers with Russo/Ferrera at the helm... I almost guarantee by week 5 it would have turned into a weird no-ring combination of telenovela and WCW Backstage Assault

Let’s not forget a bit of context, the late 90’s brought us Nu-Metal, Girls Gone Wild, Jerry Springer and Woodstock 99.  I’m sure that show would have been a ratings hit!

But yeah, looking back that time period was largely terrible period for culture in general! I mean it literally spawned Russo.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Ultimo Necro said:

Let’s not forget a bit of context, the late 90’s brought us Nu-Metal, Girls Gone Wild, Jerry Springer and Woodstock 99.  I’m sure that show would have been a ratings hit!

But yeah, looking back that time period was largely terrible period for culture in general! I mean it literally spawned Russo.

 

 

Great analysis. Turns out society's 'Attitude Era' didn't age so well either. 

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I think HHH actually has a point.  Making a separate women's show is reductive and the show would be perceived as lesser.  With that said, they don't use their women's division as well as they could based on the level of talent, but they don't use any of their talent as well as they could.  Seriously, we complain all the time about guys who should get more TV time, need a better push, is being wasted, etc.  They have a massive roster, full of great talent, and limited time to showcase them.  It is never going to get better, because the only way to make it better is to give away talent to their competition.  They just cut multiple people who are potential main eventers anywhere else in the world, and they aren't going to miss them at all.

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54 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Where as in WWE the contracts are based on those key indicators. You get your downside guarantee plus a percentage of the revenue for every show you work. It's largely discretionary

This is the absolutely insane part right here.  I remember JR talking about this, describing how the main eventers made x %, and then other guys made whatever he decided based on place on the card, gut feelings, and whatever payout voodoo economics had been passed down to him through the ages by generations of semi-literate hillfolk and con men.  In WWE, it's apparently still a variation on that to this day.  But I can only post so many times each week about how WWE is run by a guy who thinks it's still the same business he got from his dad in the late 70s.

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25 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

This is the absolutely insane part right here.  I remember JR talking about this, describing how the main eventers made x %, and then other guys made whatever he decided based on place on the card, gut feelings, and whatever payout voodoo economics had been passed down to him through the ages by generations of semi-literate hillfolk and con men.  In WWE, it's apparently still a variation on that to this day.  But I can only post so many times each week about how WWE is run by a guy who thinks it's still the same business he got from his dad in the late 70s.

This is unfair based on the fact that it is the same business he got from his dad in the late 70s.  The reason it is the same business is that no one else in the business is willing to stand up and fight for change.  Nothing in the history of the world has ever changed for the better because the people in power decided they'd be nice.  

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4 minutes ago, supremebve said:

This is unfair based on the fact that it is the same business he got from his dad in the late 70s.  The reason it is the same business is that no one else in the business is willing to stand up and fight for change.  Nothing in the history of the world has ever changed for the better because the people in power decided they'd be nice.  

That rather depends on what history book you're reading, and who wrote it. Plenty of British people are under the impression that the reason why we have the British Commonwealth (instead of the British Empire) right now is that our ancestors were being generous and kind-hearted.

Which is bullshit, but whatever. Same shit with all of America's international anti-socialist interventions in the 20th Century. Plenty of Americans reckon the World should be grateful for all that.

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2 hours ago, supremebve said:

They have a massive roster, full of great talent, and limited time to showcase them.  It is never going to get better, because the only way to make it better is to give away talent to their competition.  They just cut multiple people who are potential main eventers anywhere else in the world, and they aren't going to miss them at all.

I think your points are right in a lot of ways but this bit kind of lets them off the hook. I think it’s probably true in the sense that it seems unlikely that they have any desire to do things differently. But I’d suggest if they were willing to change up their booking philosophy and rotate the roster more then they could be getting a lot more value out of a lot more of their talent.

Like why do they need to book endless rematches to the point that most decent pairings get ran into the ground within a few months and become completely stale?

Why do Roman and The Usos need to appear multiple times every Smackdown or why do they even need to appear every week at all? (In fairness they aren’t having Roman actually wrestle too much now)

Its far from perfect but I think AEW is showing how a different booking philosophy can work. NXT of a few years ago was also really good in this sense.

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If true, the story about released talent not being allowed to sign autographs using their old ring names might be the "newest low" for the company. 

Maybe they can sign them with a worked date to when they still worked there. 

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I was at a show where Finlay and Daivari worked, and Daivari was selling photos with like three different ring names and gimmicks (and Signatures) on them. 

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32 minutes ago, Infinit said:

RE: Summerslam outdoors in August in Vegas

Isn't it unbearably hot in Vegas in August?

I've been to Vegas in September when it was 110(imagine waking up in the morning at 8:00 and it's already 98...). Yes, there's no humidity, so it could be a LOT worse, but you're still basically dripping sweat walking the Strip.

Edited by Peck
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Lost in all of this Triple H/women's only show talk is the fact that Samoa Joe might be headed back to NXT as an in-ring competitor according to Fightful.

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