AUG 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, Niners Fan in CT said:

Why did Bret win the title from Flair at a house show? I know they did title changes on the house circuit but it was less often by this point.  

Dude, I am still trying to figure why Savage dropped the title to Flair on Prime Time Wrestling at a taping three days after Summerslam that year.

[caley]

1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I been watching older shit.  I didn't remember too much about Survivor Series '92 so I went in pretty fresh.  Why did Bret win the title from Flair at a house show? I know they did title changes on the house circuit but it was less often by this point.  It was his first WWE Championship reign too.  The defense against HBK was a decent match,  he really went out of his way to make Michaels look competitive here. Bret was a selfless champion.  Too bad HBK couldn't do the same for him. 

This was back when Micheals still liked Bret/had less pull at this point.  I remember there was a story in his book that the following SS when they were going over the Hart Family vs Knights match, Bruce Hart was trying to take control of the planning and Michaels said something to him like "If my brother was the best wrestler in the world, I'd probably shut my mouth and listen to what he says".

I don't remember specifically why they did it at a house show, except that Flair was on his way out and they maybe didn't want him to make their new champ look bad (Which Bret felt he did during their house show match)?

[Niners Fan in CT]

2 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Dude, I am still trying to figure why Savage dropped the title to Flair on Prime Time Wrestling at a taping three days after Summerslam that year.

Our answers are probably in an old Observer somewhere or maybe someone here remembers I honestly have no idea.  Hell,  I still don't know why Hogan and Flair didn't main event WrestleMania. Understandably,  I do remember a thing about their house show run not drawing but then I watched one of their house show matches from MSG and it looked like a packed house and the crowd seemed really into it.. 

It's a fun little match too mostly because it's Flair dragging Hogan into his formula. 

[Curt McGirt]

If Flair decided to shoot it wouldn't be televised either. 

EDIT: Actually that sounds silly because Bret almost 100% would have known how to take care of himself against Flair, but this is Vince we're talking about.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Curt McGirt

[Niners Fan in CT]

6 minutes ago, caley said:

I don't remember specifically why they did it at a house show, except that Flair was on his way out and they maybe didn't want him to make their new champ look bad (Which Bret felt he did during their house show match)?

Okay I do remember Bret saying something like that but I thought Flair also told Bret around that time that he was one of the greatest after he put on that main event with a drugged up Bulldog? 

I don't think Flair would have tried to make it look bad and either way they could have gotten around it if say it aired on a SNME and taped. 

[Mario Hobb]

36 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

Why did Bret win the title from Flair at a house show? I know they did title changes on the house circuit but it was less often by this point.  It was his first WWE Championship reign too.  

In the past five years or so, Ric's started claiming he was injured by the Ultimate Warrior and that led to him dropping the belt.  According to Ric, Warrior dropped him on his head in a match shortly before the Bret match and caused an inner ear problem.  Supposedly, that caused an issue with his equilibrium that lasted over a year and the office decided to get the belt off him as quickly as possible.  The decision to do the switch at a house show was because Ric couldn't go at more than half-speed and the office knew the match would be terrible.

FWIW, there are a lot of holes in the story.  I've heard Ric tell the story several times and the details aren't consistent or don't make sense (Ric claimed that doctors didn''t know how to diagnose equilibrium problems at the time.  Lol).  Ric also says the injury was so bad he couldn't really go in the ring for over a year and couldn't function in daily life or drive a car, but.... he somehow managed not to take a year off. Ric was on heavily pushed for four months after he dropped the belt and doesn't appear to be impaired or going at less than half speed. If the injury was that bad, he'd have missed time or ended up in the Observer.   I

Ric's generally what writers call an unreliable narrator, so..... 

Edited August 19, 2020 by Mario Hobb

[odessasteps]

The inner ear thing was in the observer at the time, iirc. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

39 minutes ago, caley said:

This was back when Micheals still liked Bret/had less pull at this point.  I remember there was a story in his book that the following SS when they were going over the Hart Family vs Knights match, Bruce Hart was trying to take control of the planning and Michaels said something to him like "If my brother was the best wrestler in the world, I'd probably shut my mouth and listen to what he says".

I don't remember specifically why they did it at a house show, except that Flair was on his way out and they maybe didn't want him to make their new champ look bad (Which Bret felt he did during their house show match)?

I just watched that Survivor Series after never seeing it before. Oh boy, they are lucky as hell they had Undertaker because they had ZERO bonafide stars in WWF at that time other than him. Yoko was a decent second place along with Bret and Shawn not being all the way there yet*. Savage got the veteran who is just hanging out still here pop. Just a dreadful show. 

As for that match, it's obvious why Owen got that spot as Bret's rival sibling. I haven't seen much Stampede, but the brothers in that match that weren't Owen were vanilla. Lost Greg Valentine under a mask who was constantly not in the right place was the fourth best worker in the match. Anytime Bret, Owen, or Shawn aren't in the match, it's just super boring and makes no sense as to why it's on PPV. Actually, the theme of the show should have been, "why the fuck is this on PPV?".

*FWIW I've been watching some of these down period era shows that I haven't seen before. One person I was going to thrown in there was Razor Ramon because his entrance was an automatic big pop. Then, I think about it some more...on every show I've seen his entrance is automatic big pop. Maybe it's because his theme music was great and he was always kinda in the opener (which is a good place to be cause the crowd isn't worn out), but the fans would go crazy for the car crash/skid as soon as it hit. Why wasn't Scott Hall made the top guy at some point? He came in with a big push, but it felt like he couldn't get past the IC title stage. You can't say it was size cause the motherfucker was 6'6" at least. Maybe legit 6'7". To me, it makes no sense that Hall was one of those guys forced to leave because of the "well, I got kids to feed." This goes especially because when he came to WWF, that roster quickly headed into the dire straits department. 

Quote

Our answers are probably in an old Observer somewhere or maybe someone here remembers I honestly have no idea.

 For the Savage -> Flair title change, I get that Savage had a ton of problems and it probably made sense to take the title off of him. I just don't understand why it was done so poorly (and that's after having both guy redo the match) in an era where Vince micromanaged every thing to make sure it looked right on the broadcast. Also, I don't get why wasn't it done at Summerslam when you can get the most value out of it.

Edited August 19, 2020 by Elsalvajeloco

[Death From Above]

Bruce was quite involved in Stampede as Stu's understudy behind the scenes AFAIK, and he handled a lot of the day to day shit that wasn't worth bothering the old man with, but I can't recall too much truly noteworthy work from him in the ring.

[odessasteps]

The only thing I remember off the top of my head from Bruce in Stampede is teaming with Pillman as Bad Company. 

[Robert S]

23 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Dude, I am still trying to figure why Savage dropped the title to Flair on Prime Time Wrestling at a taping three days after Summerslam that year.

I looked a bit through old Observers and Meltzers analysis in the issue where he covers the title change is basically this:

- they set up the title change at Summerslam with Savage selling getting his knee injured by a Flair chair-shot

- Savage did not drew that well as champ

- they wanted to do a Flair vs. Warrior program for the title on top and Savage vs. Ramon as secondary main event (or main event for the "other" crew)

- Meltzer thought that Savage might have been on his way out (as history has shown, he was on his way out of being a fulltime wrestler for Vince)

Why they immediately put the title on Bret once Warrior was gone (and it really was immediately, Warrior was at the TV taping the night before the title switch and even did house shows until early November, even though WWF in early October already knew that Warrior would be gone by the end of the year; I don't remember the details, but I think when they put the IC title on Davey Boy, they already knew that they were going to fire him two months later), is not printed in the 92 Observers. I don't remember when Flair told Vince that he wanted to go back to WCW, might have been at that point. Also they were coming back fresh from a hot European tour, with Bret emerging as their top star, which probably helped his case. Also, usually Vince knew the key matched of Mania very soon, so I am wondering at what point Vince was thinking about a Yokozuna main event push (Yokozuna debuted at the same set of tapings where Bret won the title). So maybe the initial Wrestlemania IX main event was supposed to be Flair vs. Warrior and once it became clear that Warrior was not going to be available, he was looking for an alternative and saw the agile monster Yokozuna.

[Robert S]

19 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

The inner ear thing was in the observer at the time, iirc. 

I can confirm this, though Meltzer did not draw any conclusions about this being a reason for the title change; looking at results, Flair took off about five weeks (except a couple of house shows).

[Elsalvajeloco]

6 minutes ago, Robert s said:

I looked a bit through old Observers and Meltzers analysis in the issue where he covers the title change is basically this:

- they set up the title change at Summerslam with Savage selling getting his knee injured by a Flair chair-shot

- Savage did not drew that well as champ

- they wanted to do a Flair vs. Warrior program for the title on top and Savage vs. Ramon as secondary main event (or main event for the "other" crew)

- Meltzer thought that Savage might have been on his way out (as history has shown, he was on his way out of being a fulltime wrestler for Vince)

Why they immediately put the title on Bret once Warrior was gone (and it really was immediately, Warrior was at the TV taping the night before the title switch and even did house shows until early November, even though WWF in early October already knew that Warrior would be gone by the end of the year; I don't remember the details, but I think when they put the IC title on Davey Boy, they already knew that they were going to fire him two months later), is not printed in the 92 Observers. I don't remember when Flair told Vince that he wanted to go back to WCW, might have been at that point. Also they were coming back fresh from a hot European tour, with Bret emerging as their top star, which probably helped his case. Also, usually Vince knew the key matched of Mania very soon, so I am wondering at what point Vince was thinking about a Yokozuna main event push (Yokozuna debuted at the same set of tapings where Bret won the title). So maybe the initial Wrestlemania IX main event was supposed to be Flair vs. Warrior and once it became clear that Warrior was not going to be available, he was looking for an alternative and saw the agile monster Yokozuna.

I wonder how terrible that first match between Flair and Savage was for Vince to look at the second try and be like, "That'll do, pal!" 

 

[Robert S]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I been watching older shit.  I didn't remember too much about Survivor Series '92 so I went in pretty fresh.  Why did Bret win the title from Flair at a house show? I know they did title changes on the house circuit but it was less often by this point.  It was his first WWE Championship reign too.  The defense against HBK was a decent match,  he really went out of his way to make Michaels look competitive here. Bret was a selfless champion.  Too bad HBK couldn't do the same for him. 

Correction: the title change did not occur on a house show, but rather on a Superstars taping.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Robert s

[Robert S]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I wonder how terrible that first match between Flair and Savage was for Vince to look at the second try and be like, "That'll do, pal!"

Wasn't the story more like Vince going "Flair just does not get it, okay, let's use what we have"?

I always thought that they did the match twice, but actually (according to the 92 Observer) they just stopped the match and sent everyone to back and continued the match later:

Quote

Actually the match where the title was "supposed" to change hands turned into an abortive contest as 12:00 in, because Vince McMahon was unhappy with what was going on, he sent Bobby Heenan out who signalled to ref Earl Hebner and everyone went back to the dressing room and ring announcer Howard Finkel announced "the match will resume as soon as the referee regains control." After several squash matches had taken place, Flair and Savage were sent into the ring again and did a 25:00 match with Savage selling the "injured" knee a lot more and Mr. Perfect freely interfering. Razor Ramon came to ringside and gave Savage a hard kick to the knee before walking back to the dressing room. Flair put the figure four on and Savage held out for two minutes before the three count. After the match Ramon attacked Savage's knee once again and Ultimate Warrior had to help Savage to the back.

So either this report here is wrong, or the match we got is cut together from both matches.

[Curt McGirt]

Bruce Hart's biggest claim to fame will always be being drunk at Canadian Stampede, wearing sunglasses and a bomber jacket, attacking Stone Cold and getting dumped over the rail. 

[Vgmastr]

8 minutes ago, Robert s said:

Correction: the title change did not occur on a house show, rather on a Superstars taping.

Yup, and it ended up on a Coliseum Video.  If anyone wants to see it, it's on the Network: https://watch.wwe.com/program/12258.  The same video also has the Bret/HBK Ladder Match.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Vgmastr

[cwoy2j]

35 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

The inner ear thing was in the observer at the time, iirc. 

Yeah I've heard the inner ear thing from a few other sources rather than Flair. IIRC, he was also going through a divorce or something else at the time.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

Flair also tells the inner ear story in his book from '03 with Mark Madden FWIW. 

 

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, Robert s said:

Wasn't the story more like Vince going "Flair just does not get it, okay, let's use what we have"?

I always thought that they did the match twice, but actually (according to the 92 Observer) they just stopped the match and sent everyone to back and continued the match later:

So either this report here is wrong, or the match we got is cut together from both matches.

Just seeing the match last week, it looks like they took the entrances off the first match and then they probably went back out again shortly (probably a quick buffer match between) and did it again. Savage looks fresh when he comes out and then worse for wear. Also, the crowd is fucking dead even though they obviously sweeten the crowd.

The Razor interference...I think what they showed on the taping had to be the second time out for him. He comes out and nobody cares that he is walking down the aisle. However, maybe that was his first time as it would make sense to have the version where the fans are possibly looking towards the entrance way if you had it.

[Mario Hobb]

15 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Flair also tells the inner ear story in his book from '03 with Mark Madden FWIW. 

 

OK, I'm wrong then.  I don't recall the inner ear story until Flair told it on his podcast five or six years ago.  I thought it was just Flair being Flair.

[AxB]

AEW heels: $50 One Year Membership, for a regular virtual meetings (two hours long, I think) with lots of interaction.

WWE Virtual Meet and Greets: $125, for a one off two minute video chat. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

55 minutes ago, Robert s said:

Correction: the title change did not occur on a house show, but rather on a Superstars taping.

Was it? I only remember seeing a quick highlight of it on Superstars.  Did they actually show the entire match? 

Edit:  Okay,  I just went to the network. They don't show the match.  Bret comes out and cuts a promo as the newly crowned champion. It was at a Superstars taping but the match itself was only on Coliseum Video which still raises the question.. why.. lol

Edited August 20, 2020 by Niners Fan in CT

[Nice Guy Eddie]

3 hours ago, AxB said:

So, anyone watching All Out 2019 (part one) on YouTube tonight? Starts in like two and a half hours I think.

Or there's NXT on the telly at the same time, if that's your thing.

I'm switching between the Yankees/Rays game and nxt. I can't tell you the last time I've watched nxt. That said, I want Adam Cole to kick Pat McAfee's face off. 

[CanadianChris]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

 

Edit:  Okay,  I just went to the network. They don't show the match.  Bret comes out and cuts a promo as the newly crowned champion. It was at a Superstars taping but the match itself was only on Coliseum Video which still raises the question.. why.. lol

They wanted people to think that they needed to go to live events because anything, including title changes, could happen.