2019 Ring Of Honor Thread

[J.T.]

On ‎7‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 1:20 AM, Archibald said:

.

Happy and smarmy GoD just weirds me out although I really dig Tama Tonga letting his grey show and becoming a BC elder statesman.

Edited July 19, 2019 by J.T.

[Hail Sabin]

The Main event of ROH TV this week is really good! A Philadelphia Street Fight between Haskins/Tracy/Bandido vs. Scurll/King/PCO that gives you a couple mins during the match of PCO vs. Bandido that makes you want to see a singles match between them. 

[sabremike]

I am at the Manhattan show that starts in 15 minutes and I am not joking when I say there are only roughly 200 or so fans in the entire building. Card sucks and cheapest ticket is $43, doesn't take a genius to figure out the problem.

[Web Conn]

ROH can't sell out the Hammerstein? That's not good.

[hammerva]

If nothing else describes Ring of Honor current mess this tweet probably handles it

The show that they are mentioning iis GCW WOMBAT show which I still have no idea the concept of.  Although to be fair I can think of at least 3 people who would be better champions than Shane Taylor and Matt Taven and  2 or them are over 55 years old (Dundee and Doug Gilbert)

Also hearing stories that not only can they not sell out the building but they have to give out freebies for the people for ones there.   Hopefully Bully Ray gives all of a handshake

 

Edited July 21, 2019 by hammerva

[sabremike]

About 900 here. Kenny King just did a promo saying he was going to put Taven (who was wearing a Sox jersey) in the hospital with Big Papi. This company just totally sucks. 

[sabremike]

I never thought I would ever say this but ROH is the worst major promotion in North America right now. The Briscoes-GOD clusterfuck of insanity main event did as much to save the show as possible. Only positive.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Sounds like it's time for ROH to go back to the Murphy Rec Center. I doubt they could even sell out the much smaller Grand Ballroom upstairs from the Hammerstein. They're beyond fucked when/if New Japan decides to pull the plug on their partnership. I wonder how bad it has to get for Sinclair to end their half-assed endeavor into wrestling. At least there will be some very good talent available in the coming months when the contracts of Cobb, Haskins, Bandido, Scurll, PCO, Tracy Williams, RUSH, and Brody King all come up.

Edited July 21, 2019 by Nice Guy Eddie

[HarryArchieGus]

Quote

 PWInsider reports that ROH has signed Jay and Mark Briscoe to new deals approximately three months ago. The duo was involved in a significant angle at ROH Manhattan Mayhem.

Damn, was really hoping to see them on TNT. 

The 'Manhattan Mayhem' review I read suggested this was a strong comeback show for ROH.  I'm not following ROH, but the show I saw here in Toronto suggested there's still a lot of talent up and down the card.  I hope they can see the errors of their booking ways (see the current singles title holders) and rebound.  Also, is this company really worse than TNA?  I tried to watch an episode of Impact recently, with FF button in play, and barely made it thru.  Impact is WWE lite, ROH 2019 is more like past-ROH lite.  

Edited July 21, 2019 by HarryArchieGus

[Web Conn]

What's worse being a watered down version of another company or being a watered down version of your own company?

[Nice Guy Eddie]

If anything, I see current ROH as the bastard child of ECW and TNA. I really don't see Impact being WWE-lite anymore. There are things I think Impact does much better than the 'E, namely the women's division, tag team division, and the X division.

[HarryArchieGus]

1 hour ago, Web Conn said:

What's worse being a watered down version of another company or being a watered down version of your own company?

Ha, 'be yourself' always!

I think this is actually an important note, in that, ROH because of it's history gets judged much more critically than say Impact which has such a weak lineage or the upstart MLW.  I've enjoyed watching MLW this year, and tho I would say the TV episodes I've seen are much better than ROH's TV (what I've seen has been mediocre at best) or the little Impact I've seen (couldn't make it thru), ROH still seems to put on a pretty solid live show.  I am judging this solely by the MSG show (which was almost entirely highlighted by New Japan matches/performers) and the house show here in Toronto - which was by no means a blowaway show, but very entertaining.  ROH is struggling, but they aren't far off getting back to 'stable' - where they've almost always been for me.  They've always been a company with a good roster and simple mostly decent booking. They really don't need to do a whole lot to get back to simple mostly decent booking.  Listen to the fans and get the straps off Matt Taven and Shane Taylor.  Tho, I don't hate either of those guys as much as most. Taven should just not be the headliner, but I'm not sure who should be (maybe some of you who are following closer would know?).  They don't really have that one guy.  Jeff Cobb would have been an interesting choice, but they already jobbed him, and I suspect he's AEW bound. Taylor on the otherhand just needs a makeover - maybe some looser pants, get him out of that huge-ass-exposing-singlet.    

Edited July 21, 2019 by HarryArchieGus

[sabremike]

12 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Ha, 'be yourself' always!

I think this is actually an important note, in that, ROH because of it's history gets judged much more critically than say Impact which has such a weak lineage or the upstart MLW.  I've enjoyed watching MLW this year, and tho I would say the TV episodes I've seen are much better than ROH's TV (what I've seen has been mediocre at best) or the little Impact I've seen (couldn't make it thru), ROH still seems to put on a pretty solid live show.  I am judging this solely by the MSG show (which was almost entirely highlighted by New Japan matches/performers) and the house show here in Toronto - which was by no means a blowaway show, but very entertaining.  ROH is struggling, but they aren't far off getting back to 'stable' - where they've almost always been for me.  They've always been a company with a good roster and simple mostly decent booking. They really don't need to do a whole lot to get back to simple mostly decent booking.  Listen to the fans and get the straps off Matt Taven and Shane Taylor.  Tho, I don't hate either of those guys as much as most. Taven should just not be the headliner, but I'm not sure who should be (maybe some of you who are following closer would know?).  They don't really have that one guy.  Jeff Cobb would have been an interesting choice, but they already jobbed him, and I suspect he's AEW bound. Taylor on the otherhand just needs a makeover - maybe some looser pants, get him out of that huge-ass-exposing-singlet.    

The booking is just awful and here's a perfect example from last night: the big feud is between Lifeblood (the big babyface group) vs Villain Enterprises (who are supposed to be the biggest heels in the promotion but who are in fact clearly the biggest babyfaces). So you have a feud where the whole heel/face dynamic is screwed up. Then in the match the faces chase Flip to the back and have a 4-3 advantage the rest of the match. That makes no sense.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

31 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

 Taylor on the otherhand just needs a makeover - maybe some looser pants, get him out of that huge-ass-exposing-singlet.    

He needs something like Mable’s gear. Or just Aja Kong parachute pants.

Edited July 21, 2019 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Nice Guy Eddie]

7 hours ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

He needs something like Mable’s gear. Or just Aja Kong parachute pants.

I can't take Shane Taylor seriously with his look. His ass and child bearing hips shouldn't be accentuated. He's the definition of bush league. Getting away from Taylor was probably the best decision Keith Lee ever made.

Matt Taven is fine out of the ring. He has a good enough look. He's ok on the mic, but needs to stop using melvins. Nobody should ever use that term unless discussing the band. Then, Taven gets in the ring and he's a really boring, uninteresting wrestler. If he ever wants to be taken seriously, he needs to drop The Kingdom. TK O'Ryan is so green. I will always refer back to his horrible match with Jay Lethal on the Honor Rising shows in Japan. You could see Jay slowing down to let O'Ryan try to keep up with him. Vinny Marseglia's "Horror King" gimmick comes off so cheesy. Killer Kross does the sociopath gimmick so well, while Marseglia feels like he went to Halloween Superstore on November 1st and got a bunch of props to use for 75% off.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Archibald]

9 hours ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

They're beyond fucked when/if New Japan decides to pull the plug on their partnership.

Would it really get any worse? I think that for few months now they are going basically solo, now they got GoD, but I kinda doubt that GoD actually sell tickets.

2 hours ago, Web Conn said:

What's worse being a watered down version of another company or being a watered down version of your own company?

I think it is better to be watered down version of yourself. In theory, if you keep improving then you are going to get back to form.

1 hour ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Taven should just not be the headliner, but I'm not sure who should be (maybe some of you who are following closer would know?).  They don't really have that one guy.  Jeff Cobb would have been an interesting choice, but they already jobbed him, and I suspect he's AEW bound.

For me argument about Cobb died after Best in the World PPV. Not because he lost, but because crowd was evenly split, maybe even slightly more in favour of Taven. Granted, you could argue that potential Cobb fans didn't show up because they didn't think that he might win, but I'm not sure how such thing could be measured.

59 minutes ago, sabremike said:

The booking is just awful and here's a perfect example from last night: the big feud is between Lifeblood (the big babyface group) vs Villain Enterprises (who are supposed to be the biggest heels in the promotion but who are in fact clearly the biggest babyfaces). So you have a feud where the whole heel/face dynamic is screwed up. Then in the match the faces chase Flip to the back and have a 4-3 advantage the rest of the match. That makes no sense.

Isn't this just a continuation of The Elite/BC problem that RoH had for years?

41 minutes ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Matt Taven is fine out of the ring. He has a good enough look. He's ok on the mic, but needs to stop using melvins. Nobody should ever use that term unless discussing the band. Then, Taven gets in the ring and he's a really boring, uninteresting wrestling. If he ever wants to be taken seriously, he needs to drop The Kingdom. TK O'Ryan is so green. I will always refer back to his horrible match with Jay Lethal on the Honor Rising shows in Japan. You could see Jay slowing down to let O'Ryan try to keep up with him. Vinny Marseglia's "Horror King" gimmick comes off so cheesy. Killer Kross does the sociopath gimmick so well, while Marseglia feels like he went to Halloween Superstore on November 1st and got a bunch of props to use for 75% off.

I think that Taven is fine in the ring, but you are 100% right about The Kingdom. Its like if Beer City Bouncers or whatever they are called were involved in main event angles, it just makes no sense.

[HarryArchieGus]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

He needs something like Mable’s gear. Or just Aja Kong parachute pants.

I'm not so sure that Mabel look is what you want to go for.  Always seemed awkward looking to me.  I think this is the right direction tho.  

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

The booking is just awful and here's a perfect example from last night: the big feud is between Lifeblood (the big babyface group) vs Villain Enterprises (who are supposed to be the biggest heels in the promotion but who are in fact clearly the biggest babyfaces). So you have a feud where the whole heel/face dynamic is screwed up. Then in the match the faces chase Flip to the back and have a 4-3 advantage the rest of the match. That makes no sense.

Yeah, that sounds like a poor booking decision.  Lifeblood is both a ridiculously awkward name for a group and a bunch of guys whom don't really gel as a group.  Some ppl seem to be high on Haskins and Williams, but as somebody who has not seen them shine previously they're as bland as can be.  They could both use a makeover (as could much of this roster).  I like Bandido a lot, but I don't really get how he fits in there.  The little I've seen of PJ Black he seems under utilized.    

Yeah, why is Villain Enterprises, other than the obvious name, a heel group?  They're the most over guys in the company.  Marty Scrull seems AEW bound, so I get why he isn't holding the title, but why not until then?  Somebody's going to get more over working Scrull than the current lame duck champion.
  
In general, ROH tries too hard with the heel-face dynamic.  If it makes sense to a program than do it, or if you've got somebody like MJF or Taven even, natural heels, than do it.  But the ROH crowd seems more interested in cheering for the athleticism of the matches, so why not just go for that.  Get your guys over with quality matches and natural personalities.  Forget the pretend heel nonsense.  

Listening to Bubba Dudley (he is the booker, yeah?), the few times I've heard his podcast, he seems to be hellbent on sticking to a more traditional heel/face dynamic of booking, but I don't think the formula works for companies like ROH.  Again, ppl are coming to see the athletic abilities of the performers.  Most the matches I saw live here had the crowd wanting to chant for both performers.  The crowd was willing to play along with the heel dynamic where applied, but do so with a tongue squarely in cheek. You have to have guys who can talk and really exude being a heel for the dynamic to work.  Otherwise it comes off as cartoon - which is what most of the angles in ROH seem to be.  I think they oughtta look to New Japan and how Gedo has fabulously booked the company, and follow his lead.  That might not work on a mainstream national level, but ROH isn't mainstream.  They cater to a smaller more hardcore audience - just know your audience and be happy with that.  

[Web Conn]

Two or three years ago with that Silas Young-Dalton Castle feud about making the boys real men I thought they would have moved Silas up to the main event scene and have Dalton vs Silas be the big feud the big company rivalry with Silas getting a run as heel champ that never happened.

I was all for Cobb getting a run with the Championship he’s in the G-1 so the timing didn’t work but maybe they should have waited on doing the match if that was the case.

I’m sure Taven vs Shelley is gonna be a decent enough match but the show is called Summer Supercard it’s in Toronto SummerSlam weekend run something big like Taven vs Rush. Get the belt off Taven. Rush getting a run as Champ would be incentive to resign especially if the plan is for a long run.

Taven shouldn’t be a long term champion, where’s the conspiracy if you are Champ for a year?

[HarryArchieGus]

If I'm to believe what I've read Jeff Cobb's a free agent either now or very soon, and I would assume if this is true he's going to be on TNT this fall. This is what I hope anyway.  

Alex Shelley returning to ROH and facing the current title holder sounds good to me - assuming Alex Shelley is healthy and capable.  That said, I'd be more excited if there was a potential classic match-up to be had - Matt Taven isn't really the dance partner for any sort of classic. That week in Toronto there are a bunch of International companies (OWE, Progress, etc.) co-promoting with a local group called Smash. That's piqued my interest.  ROH is going to be a tough draw against that - especially at their current ticket price point.

Tho, I don't know either of them all that well, I really like both Castle and Silas Young.  At this point, after dwindling in the lower card, Young needs a bit of an overhaul (a new look, manager, etc.) to be taken seriously as a contender.  I'm not so sure, at this point, he can be taken seriously.  But I really like his style.  He's crisp in there.  

Edited July 21, 2019 by HarryArchieGus

[Nice Guy Eddie]

If I were in Toronto, I'd go see Smash Wrestling in a heartbeat. I watch them on Fite Network. Impact uses some of the same talent from time to time. One of my favorite matches from Smash was Jeff Cobb vs. PCO vs. Brody King.

If Cobb isn't AEW bound, I could see him going to New Japan full-time. I think Marty eventually brings PCO and Brody King to AEW with him. Supposedly, Marty's contract is up in September, then PCO and Brody are free agents a few months later, December I believe. Maybe we get the Bucks & Omega vs. Marty and two "mystery partners".

The two guys I think Alex Shelley would stylistically match up well with would be Tracy Williams and Jonathan Gresham. I wouldn't mind Lethal vs. Shelley as a throwback to the Gabe days and better times. If you recall, Alex Shelley offered Hydro (Jay Lethal) a spot in Generation Next, which Lethal declined before becoming Joe's protégé.

Edited July 22, 2019 by Nice Guy Eddie

[Curt McGirt]

Did anybody watch the syndicated ROH on the other night? I completely forgot I did, but it ended with a garbage match in ECW Arena where Bandido did a moonsault tornilla through a table on the floor to end it. I haven't seen a match like that in... fuck, years. It was actually pretty fun. 

[BurningBeard]

I was just musing on this: would it be mean to draw a comparison between late 80s AWA and 2019 ROH? 

[HarryArchieGus]

56 minutes ago, CreativeControl said:

I was just musing on this: would it be mean to draw a comparison between late 80s AWA and 2019 ROH? 

Not mean for a talking point.  I guess it depends what year.  AWA was still pretty entertaining with Hennig holding the strap and having 60 minute full TV broadcast broadways with Bockwinkel.  The Midnight Rockers-Sommers/Rose/Sherri was pretty hot.  I was a loyal viewer to their ESPN/TSN shows at that time.  But then WWE raided them further and we got the Team Challenge Series.  I would say ROH is in excellent condition in comparison to later 80s TCS-Bischoff era-AWA.  At least roster-wise.  They've still got a ton of talent, something AWA did not.

Edited July 22, 2019 by HarryArchieGus

[DEAN]

5 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Did anybody watch the syndicated ROH on the other night? I completely forgot I did, but it ended with a garbage match in ECW Arena where Bandido did a moonsault tornilla through a table on the floor to end it. I haven't seen a match like that in... fuck, years. It was actually pretty fun. 

I just watched it.  That match was awesome.  The first table spot was completely balls out,

[caley]

Echoing the love on that main.  I would have no problem with ROH going all ECW every week (minus the ECW wrestlers) just big violent matches, loosened rules and lots of plunder.  It would set them apart from their competitors a little maybe.  

Also if I was ROH I would put the world title on PCO post-haste: he’s the most over wrestler they have not named Scurll and you’ve got to figure his stunts are gonna catch up with him sooner than later, strike while the iron is hot!