caley Posted August 11, 2018 Share Posted August 11, 2018 On 8/9/2018 at 1:11 PM, olythegreat89 said: I think a lot of the guys in recent years that have either left or stayed away from ROH is because they saw an easier route to WWE, especially with Evolve/Gabe having a connection. So instead of signing a contract with ROH, work all over and get hot and get signed by NXT. Sinclair and ROH have been on the slow build trend and it’s working for them. Attendance is up, I’m pretty sure profits are up and as long as they don’t get too big headed (ECW, TNA 2011), they should keep doing what their doing. If they get a national television deal, then I can see them going out and trying to sign other top indie talent. And I think the reason a lot of those guys didn’t get more of a push is because ROH doesn’t want to get behind guys who haven’t signed long-termish with them. I think the Kyle O’Reilly title win and subsequent signing really left them feeling burned. You can really notice a difference with how people are booked, depending on if they have signed or not. Scorpio Sky was basically an enhancement guy, signed, then quickly joined SCU. Gresham and Flip Gordon are guys who would impress but seldom win, then started to get big wins after officially signed. Deona, on the other hand, had some pretty big wins and matches but when the tourney came around, they avoided giving her the biggest wins because she obviously wasn’t going to commit full/time. So you can totally blame them for not getting many of those names locked up long-term, but I don’t think you can really blame them for booking them poorly because it would be a waste of airtime/guys doing jobs for people clearly on their way to WWE. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Okay I thought it was great that Ring of Honor sold out MSG for Wrestlemania weekend. That is a great accomplishment no matter how much the show is more New Japan than Ring of Honor. But fuck in the last week listening to New Japan and Meltzer fanboys talk about how historic this event is really really delusional. People are acting like Vince and the WWE are scared to death and we finally have some real competition in wrestling is amazing. Here is reality: 1. NXT Takeover is running at the same time as the ROH show. That show is going to sell out as well. Hell there is probably another show running at the same time that will get at least 300. 2. If the WWE lost its 4 biggest stars then would struggle for a small period (maybe even a year) but still be in good shape in the long term. If the Bullet Club or the relationship with Ring of Honor goes sour that company is dead in the water. The only non-Bullet Club people over are ones who have been there for over 10 years. And maybe Dalton Castle They can't just be happy with a good story. Instead they have to act like TNAMecca 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niners Fan in CT Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 I just like the idea that some of these dudes are making enough money where they can weigh their options and don't necessarily have to shake hands with Vince. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 8 hours ago, hammerva said: Okay I thought it was great that Ring of Honor sold out MSG for Wrestlemania weekend. That is a great accomplishment no matter how much the show is more New Japan than Ring of Honor. But fuck in the last week listening to New Japan and Meltzer fanboys talk about how historic this event is really really delusional. People are acting like Vince and the WWE are scared to death and we finally have some real competition in wrestling is amazing. Here is reality: 1. NXT Takeover is running at the same time as the ROH show. That show is going to sell out as well. Hell there is probably another show running at the same time that will get at least 300. 2. If the WWE lost its 4 biggest stars then would struggle for a small period (maybe even a year) but still be in good shape in the long term. If the Bullet Club or the relationship with Ring of Honor goes sour that company is dead in the water. The only non-Bullet Club people over are ones who have been there for over 10 years. And maybe Dalton Castle They can't just be happy with a good story. Instead they have to act like TNAMecca I totally get what you are saying, but... They fucking sold out Madison Square Garden, something Vince hasn't done in a few years, and are drawing the first ever non WWF/WWE $1,000,000 gate in North America ever for pro wrestling. And Vince himself is reportedly upset/worried/whatever. And he personally tried to block them from running the Garden. Is this currently any real threat to the empire? No. But between this and All In, it's a pretty big fucking deal. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 6 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said: I just like the idea that some of these dudes are making enough money where they can weigh their options and don't necessarily have to shake hands with Vince. Again this idea that Ring of Honor is the home of indie wrestling weighing their options is a kind of laughable given how they have booked. Your options in ROH are only as good as your connections to New Japan and the Young Bucks are. Unless you are fine being the Johnathan Gresham or Chuck Taylor level where you are on TV having good matches but always a jobber to make other people look good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 14 hours ago, hammerva said: The only non-Bullet Club people over are ones who have been there for over 10 years. And maybe Dalton Castle Beer City Bruiser is super over on my couch. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 1 hour ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said: Beer City Bruiser is super over on my couch. That guy is fucking awesome 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 He and Silas Young are a great pairing. I could do without Brian Milonas. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archibald Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 It is absolutely big deal that they sold it out, but at the same time lets not forget that Wrestlemania will be in town. What happens in 2020 when Wrestlemania will be in another side of the country? Thats the real story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 9 hours ago, Brian Fowler said: I totally get what you are saying, but... They fucking sold out Madison Square Garden, something Vince hasn't done in a few years, and are drawing the first ever non WWF/WWE $1,000,000 gate in North America ever for pro wrestling. Arena Mexico anniversary shows say hello. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Fowler Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 43 minutes ago, odessasteps said: Arena Mexico anniversary shows say hello. Aren't tickets to that usually roughly $20 American? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyLaw Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 18 hours ago, hammerva said: Okay I thought it was great that Ring of Honor sold out MSG for Wrestlemania weekend. That is a great accomplishment no matter how much the show is more New Japan than Ring of Honor. But fuck in the last week listening to New Japan and Meltzer fanboys talk about how historic this event is really really delusional. People are acting like Vince and the WWE are scared to death and we finally have some real competition in wrestling is amazing. Here is reality: 1. NXT Takeover is running at the same time as the ROH show. That show is going to sell out as well. Hell there is probably another show running at the same time that will get at least 300. 2. If the WWE lost its 4 biggest stars then would struggle for a small period (maybe even a year) but still be in good shape in the long term. If the Bullet Club or the relationship with Ring of Honor goes sour that company is dead in the water. The only non-Bullet Club people over are ones who have been there for over 10 years. And maybe Dalton Castle They can't just be happy with a good story. Instead they have to act like TNAMecca If WWE lost their four biggest stars, I’d probably enjoy it more. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 I'd have to check Cubs conversion charts. The Atlantis/UG show had a $US 1 million gate. Not sure if Atlantis/Sombra did. Edit: This years show go from around US$245 to $45. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabremike Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 18 hours ago, hammerva said: Okay I thought it was great that Ring of Honor sold out MSG for Wrestlemania weekend. That is a great accomplishment no matter how much the show is more New Japan than Ring of Honor. But fuck in the last week listening to New Japan and Meltzer fanboys talk about how historic this event is really really delusional. People are acting like Vince and the WWE are scared to death and we finally have some real competition in wrestling is amazing. Here is reality: 1. NXT Takeover is running at the same time as the ROH show. That show is going to sell out as well. Hell there is probably another show running at the same time that will get at least 300. 2. If the WWE lost its 4 biggest stars then would struggle for a small period (maybe even a year) but still be in good shape in the long term. If the Bullet Club or the relationship with Ring of Honor goes sour that company is dead in the water. The only non-Bullet Club people over are ones who have been there for over 10 years. And maybe Dalton Castle They can't just be happy with a good story. Instead they have to act like TNAMecca If I told you 2 years ago that ROH and New Japan would one day run a show at MSG and sell it out instantly you would've looked at me like I had two goddamned heads. This absolutely IS historic, remember WCW at it's absolute monster peak never had a million dollar gate. What just happened is mindblowing. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 19 hours ago, hammerva said: Okay I thought it was great that Ring of Honor sold out MSG for Wrestlemania weekend. That is a great accomplishment no matter how much the show is more New Japan than Ring of Honor. But fuck in the last week listening to New Japan and Meltzer fanboys talk about how historic this event is really really delusional. People are acting like Vince and the WWE are scared to death and we finally have some real competition in wrestling is amazing. I'm a lifelong New Yorker and a wrestling fan dating back 35 years. This is a monumental story on both levels. To understate this as you're doing is folly. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 Yeah, let's look at it this way: Vince has never really treated New Japan like they were any kind of threat. Honestly, the WWE acts like the British indy scene is a bigger threat. But you can rest assured New Japan is on his radar now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerva Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 In order for it to be monumental it has to impact for a decent time. Otherwise it is just a great moment that mostly occurred because it was Wrestlemania weekend. Selling out MSG doesn't necessarily mean that much if your house shows and TV taping buildings in other towns are about 30 - 50% empty Again it it is a great story but treating this like Ring of Honor/New Japan is the #2 wrestling promotion and breathing down Vince's neck that a good deal of the New Japan marks have been saying is just delusional. You have way more faith in Delirious than I do Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beech27 Posted August 12, 2018 Share Posted August 12, 2018 What New Japan marks are treating it that way? None in this thread or the Japan thread on this board, certainly. Someone somewhere thinks any argument a person can imagine, but this feels like a strawman. (If I’m wrong, feel free to cite sources. But “a good deal” is a high bar.) It’s a huge deal; neither ROH nor New Japan pose an existential threat to WWE, or are ever likely to. Both can be true. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jiji Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I think the novelty of somebody other than WWE running Madison Square Garden has a higher influence on the sellout than the Mania traveling audience. I'm not discounting the latter but I could see enough people in the Tri-state area being interested to sell this sucker out alone one time. There has been a pressure of anti-WWE sentiment building I feel and this is a nice outlet for that, as is All In. New Japan's struggles to sellout additional shows after the first three Long Beach events demonstrate that they're not a threat in the slightest to WWE and won't be for at least the foreseeable future. Should they or ROH get a more prominent, big money TV deal that Meltzer has been suggesting they should when you see what's going on with TV rights fees lately, then I think things would get interesting. As much as the internet as helped decentralize the power base in wrestling and galvanized this golden age of the indies, it has its limitations for the time being and the big reach of a TV show is still necessary to really take that next step. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nice Guy Eddie Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 I've been biting my tongue on it, but how is what you're doing any different than New Japan and ROH fans treating it like a big deal? You're going to shit on this despite what anybody else says. ALL IN didn't need a WWE show the same weekend to sell out. This is New Japan and ROH in MSG. This would have sold out whether it was WM weekend or not. You really think that New Japan and/or ROH fans unable to go to the San Francisco G1 or ALL IN wouldn't have gone to this? I'm going and I'm not going to WM, nor do I have any interest in going to WM. Nobody is saying WWE isn't the biggest promotion in the world, but there are options outside of WWE. Vince obviously feels like this is a big enough deal that he tried to block it. Before you paint me as a ROHbot, I hate Delirious' booking. I wish ROH would have dropped him as the head booker a long time ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 All In and G1 Supercard both selling out is a monumental shift in the pro wrestling power structure. It's silly to suggest otherwise. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattdangerously Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 3 hours ago, hammerva said: Again it it is a great story but treating this like Ring of Honor/New Japan is the #2 wrestling promotion and breathing down Vince's neck that a good deal of the New Japan marks have been saying is just delusional. You have way more faith in Delirious than I do. Okay, then who would you say is #2, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Web Conn Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 Ring of Honor is number 2, a distant number 2 but number 2 nonetheless. This might be peak ROH and it is as long as They keep their current booking style and not add more depth to the roster. Let’s hope they get on a basic cable network and grow their audience. Maybe WGN works something out with them. I’m hesitant to think they are going to start expanding to larger arenas regularly but I think that’s cuz I was at this years Supercard and saw First hand that they have a long ways to go before they compete with Vince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caley Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 That pop for Colt Cabana this week was nuts. That whole segment was pretty fun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted August 13, 2018 Share Posted August 13, 2018 19 minutes ago, caley said: That pop for Colt Cabana this week was nuts. That whole segment was pretty fun. For the lawsuit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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