MAY 2015 WRESTLING DISCCUSSION

[offspring515]

Vince probably has like 20 years left in the tank. He won't retire so much as die suddenly.

Sami's gonna be like Bryan all over again, only without the injuries catching up. It's going to be glorious.

Vince's mother is still alive at 95 so there is a history of longevity in the family.

Does Vince's mom have a history of cocaine and steroid use, as well as a severe energy drink addiction?

Surprisingly, yes.

[Big Fresh]

Looking for this Russo thing, I just found he's gonna have Jason Aaron on his show this week. Fuck, I may actually listen to that.

[cool arrow]

I picture Vince's mom looking something like this.

 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Vince Russo needs to do us all a favor and stop talking about something he so clearly hates. Then, he can set himself on fire.

[cool arrow]

Vince Russo needs to do us all a favor and stop talking about something he so clearly hates. Then, he can set himself on fire.

 

And if he needs help with the second part, I'm sure there's no shortage of volunteers.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

Vince Russo needs to do us all a favor and stop talking about something he so clearly hates. Then, he can set himself on fire.

And if he needs help with the second part, I'm sure there's no shortage of volunteers.

I'd sign up for that.

[The Nature Boy]

I do find it interesting though that Vince is now the same age that his father was when he died. That has to creep him out a little bit. 

[The Nature Boy]

If someone had told me in 2004 that CM Punk would come into WWE, get a year long plus reign, walk out, have fans begging him to return and sign with UFC, I would've told you to stop playing EWR. 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

I wish I could remember the exact source, but I sort of remember a Bobby Heenan shoot interview where he said that DDP was throwing worked punches, and that they were trying to work the locker room. Can anyone verify this??

[mco543]

It was Bobby's ROH shoot with Cornette, but I think he said it was a DDP backstage fight with Bagwell not Steiner.

[PetrolCB]

That is correct. DDP had shit talked Bagwell's calf implants, sparking the brawl.

[Web Conn]

I remember reading in Heenan's first book about DDP and Buff getting into a fight backstage and throwing worked punches with Brain saying him and Finlay were sitting there laughing at them.

[cool arrow]

That is correct. DDP had shit talked Bagwell's calf implants, sparking the brawl.

 

In all fairness, the idea of a wrestler who wears long tights getting calf implants is kinda derpy.

[(BP)]

Buff was managed by his mother when he was in wrestling, and now he's married to a woman that shares his mother's name and pimps him out. Derpy doesn't even begin to describe Buff and his...stuff.

[cool arrow]

The man does have issues.

[Web Conn]

He might be the one wrestler from that era that didnt sleep with Missy Hyatt which I dont know if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

[Big Fresh]

I thought he totally slept with Missy Hyatt.

[PetrolCB]

Maybe in the literal sense.

[Curt McGirt]

I remember reading in Heenan's first book about DDP and Buff getting into a fight backstage and throwing worked punches with Brain saying him and Finlay were sitting there laughing at them.

 

To have been a fly on the wall for that. Just imagining Heenan and Finlay sitting next to each other laughing their asses off makes me bust up. 

 

Good lord. Could you imagine the hell that would have been raised if Bobby and Finlay were together in the '70s?

[Casey]

From Meltzer, talking about Hogan's claims of almost joining the UFC.

Hogan [....] claimed he turned down an opportunity to compete in the UFC when it started. “We looked at it and it was very violent and the referees weren’t stopping the matches and were letting guys get beat up when they should have been stopped. So we just didn’t want to have any part of it, but it’s become quite a phenomenon.”

 

There’s nothing to that, as Campbell McLaren immediately responded basically saying, “I call bullshit on that,” saying they never had any interest in him and never called him. I was pretty tight with McLaren during those days and

the only pro wrestling names that were even remotely seriously discussed were Meng, who WCW wanted to send but he wasn’t interested in doing it

, and Craig Pittman, who WCW also wanted to send but it went nowhere.

 

Pittman, who was a Greco-Roman national champion in the late 80s, had done MMA in Japan before the talks with UFC, when WCW had him trained and sent him to Japan for a tournament to face Rickson Gracie, but he lost before getting to Gracie. Pittman actually did a couple of fights in his 50s, with his last fight coming at the age of 53 in Virginia in 2012.

 

The Japanese wanted Genichiro Tenryu and Nobuhiko Takada on the first show in Japan in 1997, but Tenryu turned it down and Takada was willing to do a worked match with Ken Shamrock (WWE had approved of Shamrock doing a shoot match with Takada on a show and had promised to promote it on their TV), but it fell apart as Shamrock refused to do a worked match on a UFC show. This was not UFC involved with any work but the Japanese partners looking for a fight to sell tickets and thought Takada vs. Shamrock would have been a big draw at the time, but Takada’s side wanted a work and it fell apart from there.

 

 

 

I'm sure the board will go bananas with this

[twiztor]

From Meltzer, talking about Hogan's claims of almost joining the UFC.

 

The Japanese wanted Genichiro Tenryu and Nobuhiko Takada on the first show in Japan in 1997, but Tenryu turned it down and Takada was willing to do a worked match with Ken Shamrock (WWE had approved of Shamrock doing a shoot match with Takada on a show and had promised to promote it on their TV), but it fell apart as Shamrock refused to do a worked match on a UFC show. This was not UFC involved with any work but the Japanese partners looking for a fight to sell tickets and thought Takada vs. Shamrock would have been a big draw at the time, but Takada’s side wanted a work and it fell apart from there.

 

 

I'm sure the board will go bananas with this

 

i'm actually quite interested in the japan part. to think that takada wanted a worked match in Pride's debut and instead ended up getting demolished by Rickson Gracie.

[Big Fresh]

Hogan pisses me off so much. The guy has done everything there is to do. He doesn't need to lie about shit he hasn't done, the truth is impressive enough.

[Phantom Lord]

Hogan pisses me off so much. The guy has done everything there is to do. He doesn't need to lie about shit he hasn't done, the truth is impressive enough.

 

Once a carnie...always a carnie. Lets be honest. If Hogan's body hadn't fallen apart on him and he hadn't gotten suckered into some shitty surgeries that ruined his back he would probably be bilking some companies into booking him for huge amounts of money. I almost want to see Hulk Hogan vs. Fallah Baah. Since Hogan didn't get his rematch with Yoko, it would be pretty close.

[Casey]

 

From Meltzer, talking about Hogan's claims of almost joining the UFC.

 

The Japanese wanted Genichiro Tenryu and Nobuhiko Takada on the first show in Japan in 1997, but Tenryu turned it down and Takada was willing to do a worked match with Ken Shamrock (WWE had approved of Shamrock doing a shoot match with Takada on a show and had promised to promote it on their TV), but it fell apart as Shamrock refused to do a worked match on a UFC show. This was not UFC involved with any work but the Japanese partners looking for a fight to sell tickets and thought Takada vs. Shamrock would have been a big draw at the time, but Takada’s side wanted a work and it fell apart from there.

 

 

I'm sure the board will go bananas with this

 

i'm actually quite interested in the japan part. to think that takada wanted a worked match in Pride's debut and instead ended up getting demolished by Rickson Gracie.

 

It's Ken Shamrock heavy, but really damn interesting. Spoiler'd due to length.

 

 

While there have been bigger stories over the years in wrestling, there has never been a story with as many implications in so many places as Ken Shamrock's signing with the World Wrestling Federation on 2/24.

Shamrock, 33, signed a three-year guaranteed exclusive contract with the WWF for a low seven figure down-side guarantee and signing bonus. In addition, Vince McMahon has the option after three years to continue the contract for an additional three years without Shamrock having the option to test himself at that point on the free agent market. The contract is exclusive, ending Shamrock's participation in the Ultimate Fighting Championship or in any shootfighting events. At least at press time appears to kill what some Japanese insiders were expecting to wind up being the biggest money live match in pro wrestling history--a proposed 4/12 match at the Tokyo Dome against Shinya Hashimoto for the IWGP championship.

Shamrock debuted on Monday Night Raw later that evening at the Manhattan Center, portrayed as a celebrity in the audience attending the matches with his father Bob and wife Tina. They showed him early in the show in the crowd. He was put over as a major star with them talking about him as a superstar from the controversial Ultimate Fighting Championship events and called him a UFC champion and said he was called by ABC-television as the World's Most Dangerous Human being. About 45 minutes into the show, he was interviewed by Jerry Lawler who tried to claim they were best friends and he had taught him all his submission holds with Shamrock acting as if he didn't know who Lawler was. The segment really didn't work. Later in the show he was interviewed again, this time by Todd Pettingill, and asked about the two Wrestlemania main event matches. At this point Faarooq came out and got in his face and made a disparaging remark about UFC. Shamrock did a wrestling promo back. For some reason, the camera wasn't on him as he made his comeback and said he'd take him on one-on-one if Vince McMahon would sign the match. This segment didn't come off as either good nor bad. Shamrock is going to have to get the megapush from WWF to justify the contract, so it's pretty well acknowledged he's either going to wind up as a major superstar in American wrestling or a flop. There is no in between, and based on his first appearance, there is no hint at all of which it will end up being. It was a positive that the live crowd took to him like a star, popped big for him and the mentions of UFC, and chanted his name during his interview. He does have the look and charisma to be a superstar and has the potential to do great 90s style shoot interviews, particularly since he has credibility coming in as the real deal. But he's never worked American style pro wrestling at this level. Shamrock was a name pro wrestler in Japan doing shoot style pro wrestling with the old UWF and Pro Wrestling Fujiwara Gumi and made himself a star in Japan doing worked matches before the days of Pancrase and UFC, so he can do believable style worked matches. He has done American style pro wrestling but is limited in his experience at it, and it would be the best thing from a marketing standpoint for him to not wrestle American style because he'd then be just another pro wrestler, and rather work a UWFI style like a more believable and less acrobatic version of Dean Malenko, with the idea that his image will take him to a higher level. McMahon is taking a huge risk, that will either pay off in the end as a great investment and a franchise player, or a better working more charismatic version of Mark Henry.

The signing ends a pressure-cooker of a week for Shamrock, who was torn between offers from UFC, New Japan, WWF and a potential meeting with WCW. It starts another pressure-cooker, going into the world of pro wrestling and on the road with the natural resentment of wrestlers who have paid more dues and because of experience are for the most part at this point better performers that won't be making as much money or getting as much of a push. Nevertheless, these are the risks a promotion has to take from time-to-time or they wind up like All Japan Pro Wrestling--a stagnant company that is a slave to workrate with the inability to fill holes when they open because not many can be super workers. WCW took it with Hulk Hogan, paying him more than any wrestler in history has ever earned, and gave him the world title despite its most loyal fans resenting it because he was the outsider being put over the home team's superstar and basically telling the most loyal fans the product they love was really not the best. In this case, it'll cause resentment originally by some fans as it portrays a UFC star as being equal to the top WWF wrestlers on their turf. He also gives WWF a chance to give its product a level of credibility and believability it is sorely lacking and is the foundation of those record-breaking houses in Japan.

New Japan Pro Wrestling held a press conference on 2/19 and announced officially what we reported here last week, that they were running a Tokyo Dome show on 4/12 headlined by Hashimoto vs. Shamrock for the IWGP championship. The announcement was made before Shamrock had signed the proposed four-match contract that would include him headlining subsequent events on 5/3 at the first Osaka Dome show ever, 8/10 at the first Nagoya Dome show, and 11/2 at the Fukuoka Dome. The immediate interest in Japan for this match was such that comparisons were made to the first Keiji Muto vs. Nobuhiko Takada match, the $6.1 million record-setting gate at the Dome on October 9, 1995 which is considered by many as the biggest match in the history of Japanese wrestling. In many ways, this match, pitting New Japan's top star against a superstar from the world of martial arts, combat sports or a rival wrestling promotion's top star, was simply just the latest sequel in the match that New Japan has been the experts in promoting dating back to the legendary Antonio Inoki vs. Shozo Kobayashi match in 1974 and continuing with the likes of Willem Ruska, Muhammad Ali and so many others. In the case of Shamrock, they had the first New Japan world champion's opponent who fit into all three of the perfect rival categories at the same time. To make things even hotter, it was announced that they were retiring the hold IWGP heavyweight title belt and designing a new belt, valued at $90,000--making it the most expensive title belt in pro wrestling history. The strap would first be on public display on 3/27 at New Japan 25th anniversary party at Keio Plaza Hotel, and would be worn to the ring by Hashimoto for the first time in the title match. They also announced Great Muta vs. Masahiro Chono in some sort of a stipulation match, perhaps along the lines of if Chono wins, Muta has to join the NWO, and a J Crown title defense by Jushin Liger against Great Sasuke. In addition, Naoya Ogawa, with three-time world judo champion and 1992 Olympic silver medalist in judo, is expected to sign his New Japan contract sometime this week and make his pro debut on the card. Tickets for the show were announced as going on sale on 3/10 and even though the top and bottom prices, 30,000 ($270) yen and 5,000 ($45) yen, are typical for the Dome, the mid-level prices were increased. The sellout, which was considered more of a question as to how fast as opposed to if it would, would set the all-time record gate.

On Monday night--actually Tuesday afternoon in Japan, the Japanese media and New Japan were stunned to find out the news of Shamrock appearing on the WWF Raw show. Technically it is not 100 percent out of the question that the match won't take place, although realistically there is almost no chance. To book Shamrock, New Japan would have to book him through McMahon. The original price and contract New Japan sent Shamrock, and most believe would probably have included an IWGP title reign (he would join only Hulk Hogan and Big Van Vader as Americans to have held that title), would have to be renegotiated and approved through McMahon. With New Japan being tied to WCW and having no business relationship with WWF, it would make maintaining that main event almost an impossibility. Forgetting about money and the WCW politics, McMahon would almost surely insist on Shamrock not losing, which means he'd have to win the title or do a screw-job, the latter which would be totally unacceptable in Japan in such a match. The IWGP title reign appeared to have been part of the original plan. However, that would mean a WWF wrestler would be holding the IWGP title, the sister organization of WCW. For McMahon, who still has designs on promoting in Japan, it would be in his best interest to negotiate to have Shamrock do the New Japan dates. Even losing in this high profile of a situation still makes one a bigger mainstream star in Japan than never having played in the big game. And this is the biggest game of all. Shamrock is already a wrestling superstar in Japan, but if he were to headline four major Dome shows in one year, even if he were to lose once or twice, he would become a far bigger attraction for McMahon in Japan if WWF wanted to promote there, then he would be having never been put in this position. The word is McMahon indicated to Shamrock he would negotiate with New Japan for him to keep the dates, but preliminary word from New Japan is that they aren't interested in negotiating with McMahon. However, it leaves New Japan with a Dome show, one that wasn't on the books to begin with and was specifically put together in the last two weeks when Shamrock contacted them a few weeks back and expressed interest in working for their promotion, and no main event.

By late Tuesday, the word out of New Japan is that they believed that had been double-crossed by Shamrock and were looking for a new opponent for Hashimoto. Dan Severn's name came obviously to mind, and under other circumstances, a Hashimoto vs. Severn match would be a good draw in Japan. However, Severn would come in under the present circumstances with the feel of being a substitute main eventer and some feel it would be better to go in a different direction, such as using a K-1 champion like Peter Aerts or Andy Hug, but politically with K-1 and New Japan rivals in that they are both promoting several Dome shows this year, that would also seem a political impossibility. This past October, New Japan had planned a Dome show around Antonio Inoki vs. Royce Gracie, but was unable to get Gracie to do pro wrestling business (ie. the job) and the entire show, which was also almost a guaranteed sellout, was canceled.

The belief is that Shamrock will debut with the WWF in a non-wrestling role at Wrestlemania with much of the speculation backstage at the Raw tapings that he would wind up as a guest referee for a submissions only match with Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin, which would lead into some sort of an angle to build to his debut in the ring. The Pettingill interview hinted as such as they asked Shamrock about the match and he refused to pick one or the other as a winner. He'll likely be training with Tom Prichard in Connecticut for whatever style of work it is WWF envisions they want him doing.

From the announcement on Wednesday in Japan of the legendary match that will apparently never happen, things have been in a constant turmoil for both Shamrock and the various promotions with designs on using him. Upon hearing the word, SEG immediately called and offered him a two-match deal for slightly more per event than New Japan was offering but not as much overall, for matches against Tank Abbott and provided he won, a title shot against Mark Coleman or whomever the champion was. However, it was their insistence that he could work New Japan, but that he doesn't lose any matches, or they were pulling the deal off the table. WWF's deal offered more long-term security than the Japanese deal and far more than the UFC deal, but would require far more work and travel. WWF insisted on exclusivity. The Japanese deal was for a great amount of money, more than any foreign wrestler has ever received on a per show basis in Japan except for Hulk Hogan, for a limited amount of work. But the contract would expire in November. WWF, which also immediately sped up negotiations on 2/18--the day word broke throughout pro wrestling that the Hashimoto match was being planned and about to be announced--pressured him to make the decision immediately and must have upped the ante since he flew back to Connecticut to sign the deal rather than meet with Eric Bischoff in San Francisco. For his purposes, WWF for many reasons looked like a better fit than WCW because WWF is looking to create new superstars while WCW has the top of its shows locked up and the booking is more controlled by wrestlers looking to maintain position.

WWF wanted him on as a surprise on Raw on 2/24 with so much talent away in Germany and all the key injuries, plus coming off the weak ratings for the first two-hour live show on 2/17 and were looking to pack every shock possible into the show to try and reverse the weekly ratings defeats. Several months back, WWF and Shamrock had a meeting at their offices about a deal, which fell apart when Shamrock's asking price was $500,000 per year. At that time, Shamrock had guaranteed fighting contracts with both SEG for UFC and Pancrase, both of which were to expire in the latter stages of 1996. With WWF looking for the home run that will put them back in the ball game, the two sides ended up back talking. Shamrock was looking toward pro wrestling for career longevity at the age of 33, recognizing his shooting days were near the end, after the reality of the hand injury eliminated him after the first round of the Ultimate Ultimate tournament and a lucrative Japanese booking fell through due to his legal problems with Pancrase.

In addition, Pancrase, which still claims he's under contract with them for four more matches, was making noises once the New Japan match got out. While New Japan did try and negotiate with Pancrase about buying out the remainder of the contract, the two companies at this point are major business rivals. The old school pro wrestling mentality still remains that the shoot style and actual shooting that goes on in Pancrase exposes traditional pro wrestling as being worked and somehow threatens it because of that, despite New Japan doing record breaking business these days, with much of the style popularity coming from incorporating genuine shoot moves into the pro wrestling framework. At the 2/22 Pancrase card in Tokyo, President Masami Ozaki, whose public statements about Shamrock in Japan after the two sides had the contract problem turned his image in Japan slightly negative publicly, said that the company would take legal action against New Japan if they used Shamrock. However, whatever negativity there was regarding Shamrock disappeared totally when the announcement of the Hashimoto match went public due to the huge buzz on the match.

[CrazyMax46]

Maybe he's just insane? Did anybody think of that? I mean. If I spent 15 years hanging out with Bischoff I'd go insane too.