Forbidden Door III - 6/30/2024

[Matt D]

Here’s my take on Danielson vs Shingo:

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2024/07/aew-five-fingers-of-death-624-630.html?m=1

Edited July 2, 2024 by Matt D

[HarryArchieGus]

3 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I’d think for most people, in Danielsons case, selling a life threatening injury and/ or playing off his concussion history would be theline not to cross. So, don’t fake being knocked out from a move/chair shot to the heads don’t fake a seizure, etc. 

I was there live for the seizure spot and was momentarily frightened, but I can't say in the end the whole thing wasn't thrilling. I'm frightened by pro wrestling often, spots are attempted and done that I sometimes wish weren't, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't part of the excitement. To each their own. 

[username]

7 hours ago, AxB said:

The thing about Bryan selling like he's injured... firstly, Eddie Kingston sells like that too, and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Secondly, his current career arc is telling the story that he's an old and broken down wrestler in his last fulltime year. So showing that wrestling is destroying him on a match by match basis is just a good bit of overarching storytelling. Now obviously having a man (who is younger than a lot of us here) illustrating his fleeting mortality and the depredations of ageing is going to be a little close to the knuckle, but... if he were to read your concerns, he would think that you were complimenting him on the strength of his work.

 

The seizure spot vs Okada poisoned this well for many, he can do whatever he wants but whether he wrestles for another day or decade he will lose a portion of the audience every time he does this moving forward. I doubt he cares but if he does it's a mess he created for himself.

[Go2Sleep]

9 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

I want to say one more thing and one thing only about the main event. 

Using so many finishers (and super finishers and multiple finishers at this point) and false finishes in a match, period, either devalues every other match on the card for doing less, or puts the main and its participants so high in supposed talent above the others on the roster that it is detrimental to the whole. 

That is as succinct as I can put my criticism.

This is a strange criticism in this context because several other main card matches had finisher kickouts or escapes. MJF got out of Hechicero's sub, Danielson and Takagi each kicked out of each other's finisher as did Mox and Naito, Toni kicked out of Mina's finisher, and Vaquer got out of the Bank Statement a bunch of times before finally tapping just off the top of my head.

 

[Curt McGirt]

18 hours ago, Technico Support said:

So, honest question, what do you watch and enjoy?  Because I feel like everybody does the "finisher kickout" stye nowadays.  That shit goes back to AJPW/Noah, if not earlier. 

There's a difference, though, isn't there?  Eddie didn't have to retire due to concussions and seizures.  People legit worried about Danielson when he came back.  So when he sells by faking a seizure, it's kind of in poor taste.  It would be like Angle faking an OD during his TNA run.

To the second point, I agree. To the first, I like and accept most wrestling AEW puts out aside from the multi-person matches and main events that go super OTT like that one. My wrestling interests are hard-edged, stiff, bloody stuff with strong stories. Both of those guys can pull that off with the right opponent. Together, they give you that.

[Curt McGirt]

I think the story of the main broke down -- to me -- to running through all their finishers, building to super finishers, then lapping theirselves with basically a restart given to them by the screwdriver BS, and going through the same thing a again before ending with a repeat of a lower level finisher again. It's not my thing. I don't like the concept of "super" or even multiple finishers in the first place. It feels like video game stuff to me. You can do it and make it work, yes, but this felt egregious.

[Mike Campbell]

16 hours ago, Coletti said:

Finished the show but skipped Jericho's match

Honestly, go back and check it out or at least find some highlights and see the finish. I get he's Taz's kid, and the idea is that he's continuing the family tradition with the Red Rum, but a renamed Judas Effect seriously ought to be Hook's new finisher going forward. It was way nastier than anytime that Jericho has ever done it.

[COLETTI]

I did catch that finish, didn't look bad at all and I have never had a problem with Hook even though he has a long way to go. I'm just so sick to death of Chris Jericho. 

[Craig H]

46 minutes ago, Coletti said:

I did catch that finish, didn't look bad at all and I have never had a problem with Hook even though he has a long way to go. I'm just so sick to death of Chris Jericho. 

Wrestling wise, I think Hook is close for as young/inexperienced as he is. For someone his size, he’s strong as fuck. He should be positioned as the giant killer and get in a feud with Brody or something.

Promo wise, he needs a lot of work, but pairing him with Joe is brilliant in the way that pairing Batista with Benoit was brilliant. You can already start to see Joe rubbing off on him in ring. I think if you can have Joe try to influence Hook’s promos and presence and Hook takes to that, then man, thethe sky is the limit for him.

[FourPostMassacre]

21 hours ago, AxB said:

The thing about Bryan selling like he's injured... firstly, Eddie Kingston sells like that too, and I don't see anyone complaining about that. Secondly, his current career arc is telling the story that he's an old and broken down wrestler in his last fulltime year. So showing that wrestling is destroying him on a match by match basis is just a good bit of overarching storytelling. Now obviously having a man (who is younger than a lot of us here) illustrating his fleeting mortality and the depredations of ageing is going to be a little close to the knuckle, but... if he were to read your concerns, he would think that you were complimenting him on the strength of his work.

The one thing I did like, when Ospreay missed the OsCutter on the apron, Prince Nana went over to him and shouted "Stupid Stupid Stupid", making the spot a strange Kofi/Orton tribute.

I believe the kids today would call what your on about with AD is “Copium”.

Nobody thought Flair was being some super worker when he faked a heart attack on Nitro it was just a garbage idea.  
 

 

[Go2Sleep]

2 hours ago, Craig H said:

Wrestling wise, I think Hook is close for as young/inexperienced as he is. For someone his size, he’s strong as fuck. He should be positioned as the giant killer and get in a feud with Brody or something.

Promo wise, he needs a lot of work, but pairing him with Joe is brilliant in the way that pairing Batista with Benoit was brilliant. You can already start to see Joe rubbing off on him in ring. I think if you can have Joe try to influence Hook’s promos and presence and Hook takes to that, then man, thethe sky is the limit for him.

For as much as AEW loves tournaments, they should do a U25 one. Mainly because I'm interested to see Hook pair off with Nick Wayne.

[Tromatagon]

Then they'll just make ANOTHER belt.  No.

[Kev]

That Naito-Mox match should be enough for TK to put the Forbidden Door concept on ice for a couple of years. I know little to nothing of Naito and I’m assuming he’s washed now, but whatever appeal he might have had is non-existent now. Him being the best they have to give the rub of the Mox win doesn’t reflect well on NJPW. 

AEW’s existence over the last couple of years has sort of negated the need for FD as a standalone show, and NJPW really don’t have enough stars with any buzz for it to be a ‘dream match’ show anymore. 

That said it was still a decent show. All the other singles matches delivered to some extent, although the multi-mans were skippable filler. 

[HarryArchieGus]

Does anybody have a GIF or short video of Luther blatantly leading Toni Storm into Mina Shirakawa's dive? A botchamania highlight to be sure. Luther in general needs to study Von Stroheim in Sunset Boulevard. More Stoic less animated dear Luther. 

[Mike Campbell]

10 hours ago, Craig H said:

Wrestling wise, I think Hook is close for as young/inexperienced as he is. For someone his size, he’s strong as fuck. He should be positioned as the giant killer and get in a feud with Brody or something.

Promo wise, he needs a lot of work, but pairing him with Joe is brilliant in the way that pairing Batista with Benoit was brilliant. You can already start to see Joe rubbing off on him in ring. I think if you can have Joe try to influence Hook’s promos and presence and Hook takes to that, then man, thethe sky is the limit for him.

This is why I've been screaming for the last three years that AEW needs to run more house shows or let their guys do more indy stuff. For as close as Hook is, imagine him and Shibata or Joe getting to tag up and go for fifteen or twenty minutes with guys like Taven and Bennet or Lethal and Jarrett.

[HarryArchieGus]

I can't recall a shittier sell for a PPV opponent than MJF's 'a poorly drawn comic book character'. I also can't recall anybody calling their win over said PPV opponent 'an easy dub...' Is Friedman on his way to a heel turn or just a plain old shithead? The Mad Scientist is incredible and deserved better than this poorly promoted TV showcase. I need to see that Sabre bout to wash away this foul smell. 

[The Natural]

4 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I can't recall a shittier sell for a PPV opponent than MJF's 'a poorly drawn comic book character'. I also can't recall anybody calling their win over said PPV opponent 'an easy dub...' Is Friedman on his way to a heel turn or just a plain old shithead? The Mad Scientist is incredible and deserved better than this poorly promoted TV showcase. I need to see that Sabre bout to wash away this foul smell. 

You do. Hechicero vs. Zack Sabre Jr at CMLL Sabados De Coliseo, June 22nd is a MOTYC. Cheap plug:

https://deathvalleydriver.com/forum/index.php?/topic/10904-2024-matches-of-the-year/#comment-1378568

Edited July 3, 2024 by The Natural

[The Natural]

On 7/2/2024 at 1:25 AM, Matt D said:

Here’s my take on Danielson vs Shingo:

http://segundacaida.blogspot.com/2024/07/aew-five-fingers-of-death-624-630.html?m=1

Great review, Matt.

On 7/2/2024 at 4:44 AM, username said:

 

The seizure spot vs Okada poisoned this well for many, he can do whatever he wants but whether he wrestles for another day or decade he will lose a portion of the audience every time he does this moving forward. I doubt he cares but if he does it's a mess he created for himself.

This.

[Matt D]

I am still midway through the show. Was surprised how much I liked the Jericho trios though. Triple heat with fairly clever transitions. 

[Log]

Watched Danielson/Shingo last night. If people hadn’t have been talking about it here, I wouldn’t have noticed the neck thing. Seemed like a very normal part of the match. He comes in with his neck all taped up, gets dropped on his head and sells it. Announcers didn’t sell it as anything more than a big move on the outside and Danielson didn’t twitch or convulse or anything. I don’t see the problem. 

[Technico Support]

8 hours ago, HarryArchieGus said:

I can't recall a shittier sell for a PPV opponent than MJF's 'a poorly drawn comic book character'. I also can't recall anybody calling their win over said PPV opponent 'an easy dub...' Is Friedman on his way to a heel turn or just a plain old shithead? The Mad Scientist is incredible and deserved better than this poorly promoted TV showcase. I need to see that Sabre bout to wash away this foul smell. 

He has terrible instincts with regard to promos.  I’ve said it before, but for every one good one, he has many more where it’s just cheap heat, burying his opponent, etc.

[The Natural]

11 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

He has terrible instincts with regard to promos.  I’ve said it before, but for every one good one, he has many more where it’s just cheap heat, burying his opponent, etc.

It's the cheap heat that annoys me the most.

[The Natural]

1 hour ago, The Natural said:

It's the cheap heat that annoys me the most.

The misogyny the most.

Edited July 3, 2024 by The Natural

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

He has terrible instincts with regard to promos.  I’ve said it before, but for every one good one, he has many more where it’s just cheap heat, burying his opponent, etc.

 

1 hour ago, The Natural said:

It's the cheap heat that annoys me the most.

I don't disagree - it's a weird thing, because if you recall the talk during the lead up to "the bidding war of '24" it was all about how he shouldn't go to WWE because they would neuter him in a scripted environment - but I think a lot of people kinda forgot that he actually really excels doing the melodramatic stuff.

We were in the house for the promo with where he talks about people throwing change at him for being a Jew, and Punk came out with the "Max, is it true?!" - that dude had the whole building eating out of his hand. That could have come off SUPER offensive in less capable hands. Or how about Le Dinner Debonaire with Jericho back during COVID? It wasn't necessarily my cup of tea, but it was an early example of how well MJF actually thrives doing those sorts of things, but will also turn around and, as you guys allude to, go back to the well on the cheap stuff.

He's the rare guy that I think might actually benefit from having a couple bullet points handed down to him

Edited July 3, 2024 by Zakk_Sabbath

[Technico Support]

33 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

 

I don't disagree - it's a weird thing, because if you recall the talk during the lead up to "the bidding war of '24" it was all about how he shouldn't go to WWE because they would neuter him in a scripted environment - but I think a lot of people kinda forgot that he actually really excels doing the melodramatic stuff.

We were in the house for the promo with where he talks about people throwing change at him for being a Jew, and Punk came out with the "Max, is it true?!" - that dude had the whole building eating out of his hand. That could have come off SUPER offensive in less capable hands. Or how about Le Dinner Debonaire with Jericho back during COVID? It wasn't necessarily my cup of tea, but it was an early example of how well MJF actually thrives doing those sorts of things, but will also turn around and, as you guys allude to, go back to the well on the cheap stuff.

He's the rare guy that I think might actually benefit from having a couple bullet points handed down to him

Yes, exactly.  Great point.  Was that the same promo where he talked about looking up to Punk, having his picture taken with him, etc.?  That was just masterful.  But that's what makes him so frustrating.  It's a shame that for every one of those great promos, we need to sit through "herp derp I can't understand the Mexican!" or MJF saying a "clever" line and then mugging for a response like he's Pete Rose cutting a promo on Boston, "HOW BOOOUUUTTT IIIIIIT?"

Edited July 3, 2024 by Technico Support