September 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[Cobra Commander]

The Roadie and the Roadie’s Roadies

[Elsalvajeloco]

3 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

The Roadie and the Roadie’s Roadies

It would be awesome if Jeff had a bunch of lackies, then they eventually got tired of his shit, and stomped the crap out of him.

[Curt McGirt]

Hey, you never know, that could still happen. 

If you told me six months ago I would enjoy seeing Jeff Jarrett in a wrestling ring I would laugh in your face. Only in this current iteration have I liked him for any reason, ever. And I don't know what it is! Is it the full goofiness of his entourage? Is it him being as delusional as when he was an MMA Legend? Was it the Texas Chainsaw Massacre Deathmatch? I'm baffled.

[HumanChessgame]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Why just have one roadie? He's a big time country star. Bring in all the Armstrongs as roadies. Would have been a better use of them. Plus the WAR (wins above replacement) for that 1994-95 WWF roster would have been crazy. He didn't have much charisma, but Steve Armstrong isn't better than that era King Kong Bundy?

Jarrett and the Brothers Armstrong against a couple of midcard faces at the 95 Survivor Series would be one of those overlooked matches of the era that's fondly remembered by enthusiasts.

[Elsalvajeloco]

I wonder if Cornette ever made a concerted effort to get the other Armstrong boys in around the time they were in Smoky Mountain. I know Prichard would say that they only wanted Brian but it's not like Brian showcased a bunch in WCW. The highlight of his run so far is Heenan refusing to stop calling him Whoopi cause he is wearing cornrows.

[Cobra Commander]

time to rebook Survivor Series 1994 to have 4 on 4 matches instead of 5 on 5

1. opening elimination match: Kid, Razor, Bulldog, Aldo vs Diesel, Michaels, Neidhart, Owen
2. second elimination match: Lawler, Jarrett, Prichard, Del Ray vs Doink, Fatu, Sione, Adam Bomb
3. third elimination match: Bigelow, Bundy, Tatanka, IRS vs Bart Gunn, Billy Gunn, Lex Luger, Mabel

Lots of Southerness in a 4 man team of Jerry Lawler, Jeff Jarrett, Tom Prichard, and Jimmy Del Ray

[porksweats]

2 hours ago, HumanChessgame said:

Jarrett and the Brothers Armstrong against a couple of midcard faces at the 95 Survivor Series would be one of those overlooked matches of the era that's fondly remembered by enthusiasts.

Let me tell you Sparky Plugg vs Brad Amrstrong would be an Action Zone gem

[zendragon]

14 hours ago, sabremike said:

Odd trivia that popped into my head and I'm trying to answer while sick and unable to fall asleep: how many guys appeared on a WWE, WCW and ECW (not WWECW) PPV and did anyone appear on all those and a TNA and AEW PPV? First one I came up with Terry Funk, Rick Rude, Shane Douglas, Sabu, Dusty Rhodes, Raven and Candido (and the latter five were on TNA shows) and Sabu is the only one I can think of off the top of my head to have been on all 5.

Bigelow also did the 1st three

[Nice Guy Eddie]

2 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

time to rebook Survivor Series 1994 to have 4 on 4 matches instead of 5 on 5

1. opening elimination match: Kid, Razor, Bulldog, Aldo vs Diesel, Michaels, Neidhart, Owen
2. second elimination match: Lawler, Jarrett, Prichard, Del Ray vs Doink, Fatu, Sione, Adam Bomb
3. third elimination match: Bigelow, Bundy, Tatanka, IRS vs Bart Gunn, Billy Gunn, Lex Luger, Mabel

Lots of Southerness in a 4 man team of Jerry Lawler, Jeff Jarrett, Tom Prichard, and Jimmy Del Ray

Vince wouldn't allow that much Southerness again in one match after the Heavenly Bodies vs. R 'n R Express at Survivor Series '93 in Boston of all places. 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Nice Guy Eddie

[BrianS81177]

1 minute ago, Nice Guy Eddie said:

Vince wouldn't allow that much Southerness again in one match after the Heavenly Bodies vs. R 'n R Express at Survivor Series '93 in Boston of all places. 

He's right. This is the same "creative genius" who decided the first WCW match on Raw should take place in.... Tacoma, Washington. Even though they were literally going to be in Atlanta the next week.

[Elsalvajeloco]

12 minutes ago, BrianS81177 said:

He's right. This is the same "creative genius" who decided the first WCW match on Raw should take place in.... Tacoma, Washington. Even though they were literally going to be in Atlanta the next week.

Prichard maintains it would have sucked anywhere. He makes the case that he asked all the WCW guys what would be the best match/two best competitors to represent WCW and they came up with Buff and Booker T. That second part I am skeptical about because even he knows that pool of talent they had to work with wasn't the best. It's not like you had Benoit, Jericho, Malenko, or Guerrero who had been staples of WCW. Bagwell wasn't a bad worker necessarily, but it's night and day compared to those guys. 

Also, guys aren't allowed to have one off night? Shit, some guys who stayed on the WWF/E roster for YEARS and couldn't string together two consecutive good matches. One shit match and you have to completely redesign a major angle. 

I dunno how you beat the Invasion as the most ill conceived, botched piece of creative in wrestling history. 

[Infinit]

3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I wonder if Cornette ever made a concerted effort to get the other Armstrong boys in around the time they were in Smoky Mountain. I know Prichard would say that they only wanted Brian but it's not like Brian showcased a bunch in WCW. The highlight of his run so far is Heenan refusing to stop calling him Whoopi cause he is wearing cornrows.

Wasn't Steve Armstrong/Lance Cassidy working for the WWF somewhere in this time frame?

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, Infinit said:

Wasn't Steve Armstrong/Lance Cassidy working for the WWF somewhere in this time frame?

I believe that was 92. He had a very, very brief run.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

9 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Prichard maintains it would have sucked anywhere. He makes the case that he asked all the WCW guys what would be the best match/two best competitors to represent WCW and they came up with Buff and Booker T. That second part I am skeptical about because even he knows that pool of talent they had to work with wasn't the best. It's not like you had Benoit, Jericho, Malenko, or Guerrero who had been staples of WCW. Bagwell wasn't a bad worker necessarily, but it's night and day compared to those guys. 

Also, guys aren't allowed to have one off night? Shit, some guys who stayed on the WWF/E roster for YEARS and couldn't string together two consecutive good matches. One shit match and you have to completely redesign a major angle. 

I dunno how you beat the Invasion as the most ill conceived, botched piece of creative in wrestling history. 

I didn't remember Benoit, Malenko, or Eddie being part of the Invasion angle, so I looked and, well... Benoit had a broken neck, Malenko finished up on the main roster literally the week of the Buff/Booker match, and Eddie went to rehab in May 2001 before getting released and doing ROH/New Japan/indies and getting brought back in April 2002.

Why on earth they didn't do Booker vs. Lance Storm if they wanted it to be purely the talent from the WCW purchase is beyond me.

[Elsalvajeloco]

26 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

I didn't remember Benoit, Malenko, or Eddie being part of the Invasion angle, so I looked and, well... Benoit had a broken neck, Malenko finished up on the main roster literally the week of the Buff/Booker match, and Eddie went to rehab in May 2001 before getting released and doing ROH/New Japan/indies and getting brought back in April 2002.

I am pretty sure that's why you had a number of mediocre TV matches throughout the Invasion. Fortunately, it did help elevate someone like a RVD cause he always managed to step up in big moments.

26 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

Why on earth they didn't do Booker vs. Lance Storm if they wanted it to be purely the talent from the WCW purchase is beyond me.

Hell, I am trying to figure out why they put all their eggs in one basket based on the outcome of one single match. If the match is great, what the hell does that do? It's WCW vs. WWF, not WCW vs. WCW. If the plan was to make Raw the WCW show, were you planning on running Booker T vs. Buff Bagwell like it's the Sheik vs. Bobo Brazil? I love Booker T, but you ain't selling out the Ramada Inn in Muncie, Indiana with that or some of those guys that were willing to not sit at home and collect a check.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

16 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

I am pretty sure that's why you had a number of mediocre TV matches throughout the Invasion. Fortunately, it did help elevate someone like a RVD cause he always managed to step up in big moments.

Hell, I am trying to figure out why they put all their eggs in one basket based on the outcome of one single match. If the match is great, what the hell does that do? It's WCW vs. WWF, not WCW vs. WCW. If the plan was to make Raw the WCW show, were you planning on running Booker T vs. Buff Bagwell like it's the Sheik vs. Bobo Brazil? I love Booker T, but you ain't selling out the Ramada Inn in Muncie, Indiana with that or some of those guys that were willing to not sit at home and collect a check.

I dunno, a free continental breakfast AND Hugh Morrus vs. Mark Jindrak might sway some folks. But only if they have one of those fancy waffle stations.

[odessasteps]

There’s certainly a conspiracy theory about WCW being set up to fail for a lot of the reasons listed here. 

[Nice Guy Eddie]

I fully believe the conspiracy theory that WCW was set up to fail.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

There’s certainly a conspiracy theory about WCW being set up to fail for a lot of the reasons listed here. 

I think it's a combo of things: 1. Just being plain dumb and feeling like they have to make good use of their purchase immediately 2. Wanted to show that WWF was always superior to WCW 3. Not really having a strong plan heading into a time where Austin was so adamant he wanted to be heel and Rock being on the verge of turning towards other projects outside of wrestling. I mean prior to Triple H's injury the plan was to elevate new guys and pit them against the Two Man Power Trip but I dunno how confident they felt doing that. I mean look at Bret's 2nd WWF title run in 1994 when he was suppose to be the leader of the New Generation. He beats Yokozuna at WMX and doesn't actually main event a PPV the remainder of that title run (the awful Piper vs. Lawler match at KotR, Taker vs. DiBiase's Taker at SummerSlam, and then Taker vs. Yoko II at Survivor Series). Mind you, when Shane "bought" WCW he was babyface. Then, at some point, he just turns heel. We all remember Shane vs. Angle at KotR 2001, but the setup for the actual match is perhaps some of the most bizarre stuff you will ever find. Moreover, it's never explained why guys are flipping allegiances arbitrarily to begin with. They just hope you understand why and fill in the blanks yourself.

One match wasn't bad enough to do an about face. Shit, the first bout in Brawl for All was horrendous and the fans absolutely shit all over it. They STILL soldiered through that shit and went all the way. Second, when has Vince EVER EVER EVER let a group of wrestlers decide what to do at that level? He don't let random motherfuckers decide what's going to main event SummerSlam or Mania. So why are the wrestlers picking who can have the best match? Isn't that creative's job and the folks who research and responsible for following talents who are they interested in.  We're not that far removed from when Ross, Cornette, even Bruce, and others would follow other wrestling products whether it was late era World Class and Continental, Global, USWA, etc. and find guys. You're telling me they NEVER watched WCW and to the point they never knew who was good or not. They signed the Radicalz a year earlier and were bringing in talents who were fleeing the sinking ships of WCW and ECW every month up until they ran out of people to sign cause they signed all the notable ones.  Bruce Prichard, who met Booker T and Stevie Ray when they first got to Global, didn't know Booker T probably could have a better match with someone who wasn't Buff Bagwell. Uh.. what?

If Prichard's big points were (1) the WCW guys weren't over to the WWF audience so they had to help them get over, (2) we just don't understand what Vince was trying to do (hence why I compared Bruce to Dennis Hopper in Apocalypse Now defending Kurtz some weeks ago on this subject) and (3) guys like DDP and others had to do something completely new cause if what they did originally to get over in WCW still worked then WCW would still be in business, then why even go forward with any type of invasion angle and then commit to do something that elaborate and time consuming when you clearly don't have the personnel needed (Sting, Goldberg, Flair, etc.) to make it succeed in the first goddamn place. They let Austin go heel only to eventually turn him back babyface just so he can turn heel again for no fucking reason other than they had no faith in any of the WCW guys. Yes, the guy who left WCW in an absolute rage cause he got fired via FedEx by someone folks viewed as Verne Gagne's lapdog and wanted so bad to be a star in WWF wants to represent World Championship Wrestling. Just absolutely baffling.

 

[Coletti]

19 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Watching that Superstars episode where Justin Hawk Bradshaw beats down Hakushi, and brands him, then the week after JR announces he left the WWF out of shame.

There can't be too many instances where the 'F/E have announced a guy leaving of their own volition? Vince's tribute to Savage on Raw in 1994 was one. I guess they sort of allude to Bret at Montreal on commentary during/before the match. 

Does Mox count? They were surprisingly graceful in their goodbye to Dean Ambrose and had to have an idea he was heading to All Elite...

[Gorman]

In my WCW book, I came to the conclusion that the Invasion would have had a better chance to succeed if they had waited for the guys who eventually showed up anyway (Flair, nWo, Bischoff, Rey Jr., Goldberg ...)

[AxB]

A few wrestlers who were on both sides of the Monday Night War have claimed that, backstage at Nitro there were always two monitors - one showing Nitro, one showing Raw. Backstage at Raw, there was only one monitor, and it was showing Raw. It was a point of pride for the WWF that they didn't watch the competition, because they didn't acknowledge them as competition.

[(BP)]

Really they ended up conspiring against themselves because they couldn’t see beyond the boom period and their own pettiness. They cost themselves an audience they never got back doing a victory lap.

The WCW hardcores who would’ve given it a shot bailed as soon as they saw their stars getting humiliated. Then they began to shed casuals they’d picked up during the Attitude Era as the WWF became less like a weird burlesque show built around face Austin and more like a regular middling wrestling promotion again. They were too high on their own supply to believe people would just stop watching wrestling.

 

[AxB]

And the worst thing is, they stayed in that victory lap mentality for like 20 years. A bad case of "I'm number one, why try harder?".

If Dixie Carter had been anything other than an idiot, wrestling as a whole would have been so much better for so much of our lives.

[Cobra Commander]

19 minutes ago, AxB said:

A few wrestlers who were on both sides of the Monday Night War have claimed that, backstage at Nitro there were always two monitors - one showing Nitro, one showing Raw. Backstage at Raw, there was only one monitor, and it was showing Raw. It was a point of pride for the WWF that they didn't watch the competition, because they didn't acknowledge them as competition.

also Raw wasn't live every week until August 1999 so for at least half of the Raws, there wasn't a Nitro doing on during a Tuesday night Raw taping