September 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[twiztor]

1 hour ago, J.H. said:

Jade Cargill? No, notcdumb enough for Vince. Say hello to Emerald Trucklungs!!

what do you think this is, TNA?

also, how does Google not have a meme of Mike Tenay with the "We Know Who That Is" caption? the internet has disappointed me today. i may have to make one when i get home from work. 

[Cobra Commander]

Countless Mid-South weekly TV episodes where they have the format of "our main match goes first/early and we have standby matches" makes me wonder about the format for wrestling TV shows in these days when the shows aren't airing head to head with other wrestling shows. I think the preferred pacing of the show is to start hot with something, to have the midway point involve something hot, and then have a main event and end hot.

So you get kind of a business-exposing consistent format of main events starting 15-20 minutes before the end of the show. If it's actually possible to expose the business much these days. As opposed to having your stated main event go on around the 5/8ths point in a show (1:15 into a 2 hour show or 25 minutes into a 60 minute show) and then some sort of chaos followed by a comedown match and something to end the show or whatever.

Advertising a card and having it all go up in smoke and get changed due to angles/etc would be an interesting sort of chaos to break out on occasion. Some people might be miffed at false advertisement.

But I think some of the show formatting is still very captive to how shows were formatted in 1998 when you really needed to win that quarterhour to keep up appearances.

Then again, i'm someone who when I first got into watching wrestling (late 1997), I thought it was hard to suspend disbelief over pretaped shows that were presented as live. So, who knows.

[Octopus]

Watching Tenryu vs Hashimoto with lil Octopus before bed.

[twiztor]

2 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

So you get kind of a business-exposing consistent format of main events starting 15-20 minutes before the end of the show. If it's actually possible to expose the business much these days. As opposed to having your stated main event go on around the 5/8ths point in a show (1:15 into a 2 hour show or 25 minutes into a 60 minute show) and then some sort of chaos followed by a comedown match and something to end the show or whatever.

also opposed to the aforementioned MNW-era Nitro shows where the "main event" would "start" at 9:57 and end in a clusterfuck before 10.

somewhat related, i always thought the 20 minute promos to start off Raw were somewhat business exposing. Most weeks, the main event would get booked right there in the ring. What was the planned main event before that? why are these guys showing up if they didn't have a match? You don't see the Houston Astros showing up in Miami because they wanted a game against the Marlins.

[Dog]

What the fuck is this about? I know I'm an AEW mark, but imagine being a female AEW wrestler and reading this. Unless they were assholes to her, I don't see a reason for shitting on the whole division and, really, the whole company. Yeah, yeah, putting over her current employer, but this is tactless and mean-spirited.

Maybe there's some drama we don't know about, but from the outside, it sure seemed like AEW bent over backwards for her.

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

Countless Mid-South weekly TV episodes where they have the format of "our main match goes first/early and we have standby matches" makes me wonder about the format for wrestling TV shows in these days when the shows aren't airing head to head with other wrestling shows. I think the preferred pacing of the show is to start hot with something, to have the midway point involve something hot, and then have a main event and end hot.

So you get kind of a business-exposing consistent format of main events starting 15-20 minutes before the end of the show. If it's actually possible to expose the business much these days. As opposed to having your stated main event go on around the 5/8ths point in a show (1:15 into a 2 hour show or 25 minutes into a 60 minute show) and then some sort of chaos followed by a comedown match and something to end the show or whatever.

Advertising a card and having it all go up in smoke and get changed due to angles/etc would be an interesting sort of chaos to break out on occasion. Some people might be miffed at false advertisement.

But I think some of the show formatting is still very captive to how shows were formatted in 1998 when you really needed to win that quarterhour to keep up appearances.

Then again, i'm someone who when I first got into watching wrestling (late 1997), I thought it was hard to suspend disbelief over pretaped shows that were presented as live. So, who knows.

Mid South had the luxury of being in front of a relatively intimate atmosphere (the Irish McNeil's Boys Club) that got to experience last week's big angle and/or match. Their personal investment was going to be a late stronger than say a crowd in Minneapolis when a promotion did a show in San Antonio the week before. If they're hot, it's because the promotion overall is hot, about to become hot (see some of the WWF crowds in 1997 once they stopped doing the multiple shows in one taping and were properly elevated talent), or there are individual stars that are white hot. Thus, it largely doesn't matter what city you are in week to week cause the response will always be strong. With Mid-South, they didn't have to necessarily be selling out the New Orleans Municipal Auditorium or putting 20,000+ in the Superdome or doing well in Little Rock, Arkansas, Tulsa, and Jackson, Mississippi. That crowd was ready, and it made the show much better as a result.

For example, I was watching an episode of MSW from 1985 this past weekend. It was pretty much an average show for probably 50% or more of the show up until they did a hot angle with Butch Reed and Dick Murdoch. Then, the rest of the show is the aforementioned standby matches of El Corsario vs. Jimmy Backlund (that's right...Savio Vega vs. Gigolo Jimmy del Ray a decade before they show up in WWF) and a tag team squash with Bill Dundee/Dutch Mantell. There were no really good matches, but you did get one pretty good thing. I didn't feel like I got jipped or screwed over.  Now, in an era with multiple two and two hour plus shows, if you don't have multiple good segments/matches littered throughout, it's considered a shitty or at least an underwhelming show. People aren't willing to grade on a curve. So technically, you can start a main event thirty minutes into the show. If people expect everything to be on par of a TV main event or your average PPV match that gets time in EVERY match, it's going to be rough sledding.

[Cobra Commander]

It's possible that advances in tape editing techniques from the mid-80s until now also meant that Mid-South couldn't just air matches out of order like how any other company that taped TV in bulk could a few years later

MLW in 2019 was actually sorta absurdly magical for finding a way to air an entire card on TV over 4 weeks without airing matches in order and having to find ways to work around the inevitable continuity errors

[Elsalvajeloco]

It also helps that if you only have roughly 40-45 minutes to cover, you can focus on a singular thing rather than basically a TV show with A, B, and C plots (loosely) strung together over an hour and half. You can basically focus on the Louisiana or Mississippi heavyweight title change or Cornette getting his head shaved or this week past week I watched where they just showed the infamous contract signing with Midnight Express and the Fantastics in its entirety for the third week in a row. That's things are usually your entire backdrop for the show to set the tone. Pro wrestling is largely based on how effective that backdrop is. We're talking about an era where folks were getting stabbed by fans. So you're investment or hook to watch next week is to see Cornette get embarrassed or humiliated or see a babyface get his comeuppance on the cowardly heel or some level of vindication. With PPV/PLEs, it's largely going to be breadcrumbs and red herrings up until the next tentpole event. So everything is basically how well did you tease something or make those tiny morsels meaningful. Therefore, you get varying degrees of effectiveness.

[Cobra Commander]

Mid-South loses a little bit of something on the Network because no incarnation of local promos is included. But I knew awhile ago that uploading local promos wasn't gonna trigger the copyright monster on YouTube compared to matches and Mid-South had several versions depending on where it was airing.

There was a video of Michael Hayes doing local promos for like 20 minutes that's not on YouTube anymore and it was just an amazing display.

A few days ago, I was looking at TV listings on Newspapers.com from 1983 and there was quite a bit of Wrestling (mostly under the usual generic names) because stuff like WOR was on cable systems far from the Northeast. So a place like Poplar Bluff Missouri would have this lineup of wrestling on a Saturday in November 1983

• 9am: All Star Wrestling (WOR)
• 11am: Wrestling (WMC from Memphis)
• 11am: Championship Wrestling (KBSI from Cape Girardeau)
• 4pm: Championship Wrestling (WOR)
• 5:15pm: World Championship Wrestling (WTBS)
• 10pm: World Class Championship Wrestling (KDNL from St. Louis)

More wrestling than a place like St. George, Utah (SW Corner of Utah) which had "Wrestling" at 2pm local (KDL in St. George), World Championship Wrestling at 4:15 local (WTBS Atlanta), All Star Wrestling at 9pm (KSTU in Salt Lake City) and Wrestling again at 10 (KDL in St. George). I'd guess there's no shortage of AWA TV around this part of the country.

But I'd guess that local promotions were getting the notice to step it up way before 1984. Although the Funks are noted for their ability to figure out that if WTBS is on TV in their area, they better cash out and that was late 1970s.

[Dog]

More context on the Jade stuff. Looks like the above quote was taken from this video.

I don't know, maybe she's just not media savvy and doesn't realize how some of these comments could be taken. She calls AEW a phenomenal company, but not before burying their "leadership," then says she'll get better training at the PC and basically "fuck a Bryan Danielson."

Mixed feelings and thoughts here. Maybe it's just weird to see the shoe on the other foot after all the "fuck WWE" promos, but those always feel kind of in jest, right? Like, that's what you're SUPPOSED to say?

Edited September 27, 2023 by Dog

[Ziggy]

19 minutes ago, Dog said:

More context on the Jade stuff. Looks like the above quote was taken from this video.

I don't know, maybe she's just not media savvy and doesn't realize how some of these comments could be taken. She calls AEW a phenomenal company, but not before burying their "leadership," then says she'll get better training at the PC and basically "fuck a Bryan Danielson."

Mixed feelings and thoughts here. Maybe it's just weird to see the shoe on the other foot after all the "fuck WWE" promos, but those always feel kind of in jest, right? Like, that's what you're SUPPOSED to say?

After LuFistos complaints about AEWs women's division, it's easy to speculate they have leadership problems. I can't say she's right but I don't think that's a reflection on the talent. Bryan Danielson I'm sure was a valuable asset to her as far. As learning but she's only has about 50 matches in 2 and a half years. You can only make so much progress wrestling once or twice a month. She wasn't even working once a week. On one hand it was good not to overexpose her. On the other hand she needs to be in the ring alot more. Even Kurt Angle who took to it quickly was working several nights a week before really getting good. She's not taking to it as well as Angle or Belair. Not everyone does. All of sudden we we just expect people with her physical presence and Athletic ability to take to wrestling so naturally but that isn't the case. As long as they don't throw her to the wolves ,  she won't be like Nia Jaxx where it doesn't matter that she's hurting people and her opponents just have to deal with it because her place in the card.  It's up to WWE if they want to give her time to be good because they could do the same AEW did and protect her to the point where she doesn't get better and spend the whole run hiding her weaknesses because she has a good look.

[YouHaveUntil5]

9 hours ago, twiztor said:

somewhat related, i always thought the 20 minute promos to start off Raw were somewhat business exposing. Most weeks, the main event would get booked right there in the ring. What was the planned main event before that? why are these guys showing up if they didn't have a match? You don't see the Houston Astros showing up in Miami because they wanted a game against the Marlins.

Just once I’d love to see an official call a meeting with the “scheduled” main event and tell them that their match was bumped off the card due to more pressing matters, or for an undercard guy to challenge another to settle their differences at Wrestlemania only to be told “sorry guys, the card is full”. There’s so many different stories they can tell from that kind of writing, but obviously they’ll never do it. 

[AxB]

"Sorry guys, the card is full" gets said to them in real life all of the time. Cody vs Dustin happened at Double or Nothing because Vince thought it wasn't Mania worthy. But having some authority figure go on TV and say "Cody Rhodes and Goldust, you're not Mania worthy", that only makes sense if you're actually booking the match but you want them to triumph over adversity to get it. Acknowledging on TV that some of them aren't big enough stars to be on the biggest show of the year, that goes against the "These are all Superstars" idea.

[Godfrey]

8 hours ago, Dog said:

I don't know, maybe she's just not media savvy and doesn't realize how some of these comments could be taken. She calls AEW a phenomenal company, but not before burying their "leadership," then says she'll get better training at the PC and basically "fuck a Bryan Danielson."

Mixed feelings and thoughts here. Maybe it's just weird to see the shoe on the other foot after all the "fuck WWE" promos, but those always feel kind of in jest, right? Like, that's what you're SUPPOSED to say?

I didn’t take any anti-AEW tone from those comments, I think she’s just complimenting her new bosses and trainers. It isn’t a secret the PC is a great facility even if you don’t agree with their methods

[Technico Support]

On 9/25/2023 at 12:08 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

In my 1994 rewatch, I am a little over couple months away from the RAW taping in Liberty, NY (at a high school gym that's smaller than some of the venues ECW was running).

 

@Elsalvajeloco discussing shitty arenas WWF taped in, the New Generation, or both at the same time, will never fail to pop me.

On 9/25/2023 at 8:51 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

you clearly don't have the personnel needed (Sting, Goldberg, Flair, etc.) to make it succeed in the first goddamn place.

 

 

On 9/25/2023 at 9:52 PM, Gorman said:

In my WCW book, I came to the conclusion that the Invasion would have had a better chance to succeed if they had waited for the guys who eventually showed up anyway (Flair, nWo, Bischoff, Rey Jr., Goldberg ...)

And they could have had these guys if they wanted to.  Their rationale was "we don't want to upset the pay scale."  Oh, well okay then.  Holy fuck.  Here's an idea...pay any WCW guy you need for a real invasion (Goldberg, Flair, Hogan, whatever), pay your top tier WWF guys a little more, and call it a god damn day.  The mid- and lower-card WWF guys would have been upset, but where would they go?  Just Jedi Mind Trick them with a "rising tide lifts all boats" story.  An invasion with all the top WCW guys would have been a license to print money.  Not doing it because it would have raised a few wrestlers' pay is so penny wise and pound foolish that I'm not so sure that's anything more than a bullshit excuse to justify something they already wanted to fail.

Another point of view is this: they really were looking hard at making Raw the WCW show (wasn't there advertising out for WCW-branded house shows already?), but Vince is really fickle, and also insane, and legit decided to shelve the whole thing after one match.  No conspiracy or anything, just an owner and head of creative with the attention span of a goldfish and a toddler's need for instant gratification.

Edited September 27, 2023 by Technico Support

[SirSmUgly]

13 hours ago, Dog said:

What the fuck is this about? I know I'm an AEW mark, but imagine being a female AEW wrestler and reading this. Unless they were assholes to her, I don't see a reason for shitting on the whole division and, really, the whole company. Yeah, yeah, putting over her current employer, but this is tactless and mean-spirited.

Maybe there's some drama we don't know about, but from the outside, it sure seemed like AEW bent over backwards for her.

She's just workin', my dude. 

[Curt McGirt]

Their treatment of her notwithstanding, they do treat that division like shit. Let's not sugar-coat anything about it. One women's match a card, even on PPVs. That's bogus. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

Their treatment of her notwithstanding, they do treat that division like shit. Let's not sugar-coat anything about it. One women's match a card, even on PPVs. That's bogus. 

And almost always the shortest match on the card as well.

[Dog]

3 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

She's just workin', my dude. 

To what end? There's no AEW invasion angle coming. 

[(BP)]

17 minutes ago, Dog said:

To what end? There's no AEW invasion angle coming. 

I think you’re thinking of a work in very specific terms as opposed to the everything is a work philosophy. Jade wanted to get over how happy she was to be with WWE in her statement, and she shrewdly did it in terms she knew they’d love. Their perspective is that they’re the only real place to work that everyone else aspires to be there, so that’s how she framed it because she was essentially doing media for them. 

[Dolfan in NYC]

20 minutes ago, Dog said:

To what end? There's no AEW invasion angle coming. 

To the end of getting over with the management of her new employer that (presumably) gave her a big raise and appears to be prepping to push her hard? 

 

[Dog]

Right, that's not really "working," then. It's just kissing ass. Which is fine, but again, there's probably a way to do it without publicly burying your old employer whom you claim to still respect. 

[John from Cincinnati]

There are acknowledged strengths and weaknesses to each company and a lot of talk about who would benefit more from being in either. Taking Jade’s benign praise of her new employer the wrong way requires an extremely ungenerous reading and maybe an outright desire to take offence on behalf of AEW. 
 

 

Will be interested to see what kind of things people are saying when Edge is extolling the virtues of his new workplace in a few weeks/months. 

[Dog]

6 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

There are acknowledged strengths and weaknesses to each company and a lot of talk about who would benefit more from being in either. Taking Jade’s benign praise of her new employer the wrong way requires an extremely ungenerous reading and maybe an outright desire to take offence on behalf of AEW. 

Will be interested to see what kind of things people are saying when Edge is extolling the virtues of his new workplace in a few weeks/months. 

I already acknowledged my bias, so I don't know what you think you're proving here.

If Edge shows up in AEW, there's no way on Earth he buries WWE while he's there. Zero percent chance. 

Edited September 27, 2023 by Dog

[Dolfan in NYC]

5 minutes ago, Dog said:

If Edge shows up in AEW, there's no way on Earth he buries WWE while he's there. Zero percent chance. 

Let's just go ahead and bookmark this for... no reason whatsoever.