Zakk_Sabbath Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Just now, tbarrie said: I don't know. I like MJF in the ring just fine, but I don't think I'd put him above Old Man Christian, who's still really good. Christian's still f'n awesome. He's a long time favorite, so I of course had my concerns about rust or God forbid, getting hurt again, but the PPV quelled all of that - this may be an unfair thing to say because I did miss a chunk from '07-'11ish, so I welcome anyone correcting me - but other than the Randy Orton matches, I think this might legit be the best Christian's looked since TNA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Technico Support Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 (edited) 3 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said: You express this often, but I don't understand how trying to actively engage the audience is a bad thing. He's also intentionally picking the lowest hanging fruit so nerds who worry about "cheap heat" do what you're doing. Where you see "little confidence," I see something that's been practiced and polished and is working as designed. My man, this is the second time (as far as I can remember) that you've read some post-modern "working the smarks" stuff into something. So "MJF is using cheap heat to get real heat from smart marks" is the new "Cody knows exactly what he's doing." Got it. I don't believe that at all and if that's true, he's a dumber worker than I thought because there's no money in that. I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy. I'm going to take this stuff at face value, not try to read extra shit into it. Bending over backwards to see some metatextual 4D chess triple reverse kayfabe that's (hopefully) not really there just sounds exhausting. Maybe a cigar is just a cigar. Edited June 8, 2023 by Technico Support 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Cincinnati Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 11 minutes ago, Technico Support said: My man, this is the second time (as far as I can remember) that you've read some post-modern "working the smarks" stuff into something. So "MJF is using cheap heat to get real heat from smart marks" is the new "Cody knows exactly what he's doing." Got it. I don't believe that at all and if that's true, he's a dumber worker than I thought because there's no money in that. I'm an Occam's Razor kind of guy. I'm going to take this stuff at face value, not try to read extra shit into it. Bending over backwards to see some metatextual 4D chess triple reverse kayfabe that's (hopefully) not really there just sounds exhausting. Cody's confirmed that to be the case, but you probably think he's lying or being a revisionist or whatever so there's really no reason for anyone to ask you to engage with that. Apologies for not realizing "Occam's Razor" people aren't capable to taking the simplest-possible second step in thought and see such as "bending over backwards" or "4D chess triple reverse kayfabe." Didn't think you'd find simple, surface-level rasslin' stuff as mentally taxing as splitting the atom. The "I love Vince, I love Baron Corbin, I hate flips and workrate, bidding war of 2024, I got an airplane ticket" guy couldn't possibly be into working the smarks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go2Sleep Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 Christian is still pretty good yeah, but I don't think he's ever had a match on the level of the MJF/Danielson IM. You'd have to go back a long time to find a Christian match that even competes with MJF's performance in the pillar 4-way. No shame in not being as good as someone 20 years younger with a dozen fewer concussions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted June 8, 2023 Share Posted June 8, 2023 43 minutes ago, Go2Sleep said: Christian is still pretty good yeah, but I don't think he's ever had a match on the level of the MJF/Danielson IM. You'd have to go back a long time to find a Christian match that even competes with MJF's performance in the pillar 4-way. No shame in not being as good as someone 20 years younger with a dozen fewer concussions. Is this throwing a gauntlet at Matt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AxB Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 10 hours ago, Matt D said: At this point, I very much hope that Menard is commentating on Collision. I want Ian/Wight/Menard. For a second I thought you were wanting Ian Wright to start commentating Wrestling. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
odessasteps Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 I’m sure Wrighty was a wrestling viewer in the 90s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoFistsJustFlips Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Technico Support said: Great show with the exception of "great talker" MJF not being able to get a reaction without shit-talking the crowd. Dude literally entered the ring, insulted the fans and city, started cutting his promo, stopped to insult them some more, rinse, repeat. The guy has so little confidence in his character and ability that he has to keep going back to the cheap heat every time the crowd dies down a little. Contrast that with the fans booing Callis out of the building without him having to pull bush league insult comic shit. Just my take on things but one of the best promo guys of all time (Ric Flair) would stop dead in his tracks to yell shut up fat boy at random fans mid promo. Or pick someone out of the crowd and talk about making their woman ride Space Mountain. I don't see a lot of difference between the format of Flair & MJF. MJF feels like a modern throwback / tribute to Flair in my opinion with his promos. Instead of Space Mountain and sexual stuff it's Generational Talent and Bidding War of 2024 as his go to content. It will be interesting to see how his career develops in 10-20 years. If he has that same trajectory of the most hated heel of all time becoming beloved for his antics like what happened to Flair. I have a sense with the benefit of hindsight a lot of what we're seeing now will actually be held in high regard. And it's just recency bias / being a version of something we've already seen before that gets MJF hated upon in the current times. His delivery and ability to let the thoughts just flow so effortless are very under rated. Even if you don't care for the content. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamBroken Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 5 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: Christian's still f'n awesome. He's a long time favorite, so I of course had my concerns about rust or God forbid, getting hurt again, but the PPV quelled all of that - this may be an unfair thing to say because I did miss a chunk from '07-'11ish, so I welcome anyone correcting me - but other than the Randy Orton matches, I think this might legit be the best Christian's looked since TNA If you haven't seen it, I'd recommend his 2009 ECW on Syfy run as being highly praised, filled with killer TV matches against a variety of opponents. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 Lot of good wrestling on this one, OC grabbed the tights but swerve tried it frost so turn abouts fair play! Wild and Bloody tag match Anna Jay is no longer spooky! I really hope this MJF v Adam Cole feud is one and done, Bay Bay is a lot like Jarrett say what you will absolutely no need to have him in a featured spot this much. as @DEAN would say Don CALLIS is a heat magnet! Way to lean into it with no entrance music! and how about that main event! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share Posted June 9, 2023 4 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Natural Posted June 9, 2023 Author Share Posted June 9, 2023 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikoBaltimore Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) I had more typed out but Verizon hates this site. I'll be quick so it doesn't crap out on me. I thought for sure Orange would lose and also felt it was Swerve's time in the battle royal. He had the approach like he figured Orange's shit out the most and in the first minute OC had this "Aw, shit" look on his face. I know the Lee feud needs to finish but I would end that quick and take him to the next level. As for contenders I think Takeshita would really put a lot of heat on him since most goes to Callis. Beat Orange in a ruthless way and that'd be something to take in the feud with Omega. Heck, they could even fight for the title if they wish. Or you could go with the ideas in Forbidden Door with Orange against ZSJ at FD. Of all the titles I'm most interested in how things will play out with this one. Edited June 9, 2023 by NikoBaltimore 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) It probably would never happen in a million years, but it would be cool if the finish of both of this week's Best Friend-involved matches got us to a Blood and Guts lineup of Chuck/Trent/OC/Darby/Sting vs. Mox/Claudio/Yuta/Takeshita/Swerve. Hell, id settle for a nice 10 man TV main, I'm sure even in a non-gimmick bout there's tons of PWG-esque fun to be had with those guys. I'll never not love OC and Sting interacting - and even though he's pleasantly surprised me, if not outright blown my mind the last three years, I'll be honest, I'm cool with Sting hanging out on the apron, putting a thumb up Chuck's butt like Liger or whatever, and hitting a couple splashes for this one - if he's only got a couple left, save him for like a Wembley or Grand Slam III I say Late edit: revisiting this post after checking my notifications - I know my last sentence kinda doesn't jibe with the idea of putting Sting in B&G, but let me be clear: I don't want him taking the Jericho bump off the top or anything, I'm saying let him help talk everyone into the building for a month, play a couple of the classics, maybe get a little color, and then he lays around for a half hour while the 9 younger dudes do the heavy lifting, before *maybe* getting involved in the finish, if physically able - nothing crazy. Like a less fucked up/depressing version of the Flair match. Edited June 9, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just drew Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 22 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said: In my opinion it honestly has a lot more to do with segment placement / what is going with other shows on TV / what the trends are for weeks at a time than who is in one segment for one show. Ratings trends take a few weeks to really develop and I think people spend too much time micro analyzing each quarter hour when Nielsen is so imprecise with their measurements. All that said, had to give drew a little bit of shit because of his size queen gimmick lol. First of all, I totally get how shows are laid out having a lot to do with their viewing numbers. The absolute truth is I'm not sure there's a single worker today that has any discernible effect on ratings. I just don't have tons of extra cash at the moment, so it's easier to live in @LF2 's head rent free than to put money down on a place. Secondly, I don't think I've ever said smaller wrestlers are an issue. 123 Kid was my very first favorite wrestler. None of the guys I'd consider my current favorites are huge guys, either. Lashley, maybe. Big E. Mox. But they wouldn't be considered "big men" in any era but this one. My issue with Adam Cole is his work style when compared to his size. If he worked like a Danielson or Waltman or even a Kyle O'Reilly, I'd have much less problem with him. It's the same as my issue with the Young Bucks; the baby chicken hawk wants to act like Foghorn Leghorn and expect the viewing audience to just accept it. I also believe some folks are mistaking a vocal minority for what the majority of the audience is into. His hype level has never matched his level of output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 28 minutes ago, just drew said: I also believe some folks are mistaking a vocal minority for what the majority of the audience is into. You're totally entitled to everything else in your post because it's all personal preference, but idk if I can get behind you on this one - dare I say, I think you might be making this mistake yourself, in this instance. I'm not trying to be a dickhead, but dude: https://youtu.be/Zjl-Vu12J3w 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuntmanCrowley Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 (edited) Adam Cole is a wrestler who, while I don't have any problem with him at all, I genuinely cannot understand how is as over as he is. I do admit I like him better as a heel, but im looking forward to him v MJF. This is stillmy favorite Adam Cole moment though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkVdukF7hOQ Edited June 9, 2023 by StuntmanCrowley 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 1 hour ago, StuntmanCrowley said: This is stillmy favorite Adam Cole moment though That's honestly kind of a great one to pick, given the apparent eternal debate on him, because it's like 35% 'fucking Shawn Michaels...' and 65% 'how does anyone not love this dude?!?!' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuntmanCrowley Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 It's definitely the best sell of a Walter/Gunther chop I've personally seen. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 4 minutes ago, StuntmanCrowley said: It's definitely the best sell of a Walter/Gunther chop I've personally seen. I'm tempted to agree - off topic, but here's a question for you: I haven't seen any of Walter on the main roster at all, has he wrestled Dolph?? I could see a guy like him attempting to out-do this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zendragon Posted June 9, 2023 Share Posted June 9, 2023 We always hear that Tony likes to cycle guys up and down so I’m curious where Cole goes after this MJF program, cause coach K seems to love the guy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zakk_Sabbath Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 37 minutes ago, zendragon said: We always hear that Tony likes to cycle guys up and down so I’m curious where Cole goes after this MJF program, cause coach K seems to love the guy You make a good point, this is his second World title feud now after the one with Hangman, and I'd consider the Jericho feud pretty high profile. I think he would have good matches with everyone in BCC, so maybe a feud with one of those guys is in order - what about a feud with Claudio and a pit stop in FL to get some eyes on ROH? It'd be a good chance/excuse to advertise Honor club by using archival footage of his tenure there and time as champion on the main show in the build up to the eventual title match with Claudio. It sucks O'Reilly is out because Undisputed Era vs BCC would be a really big PPV trios match on either AEW or ROH - any combination of BCC vs Cole/Strong is still going to be cool, but it would have been nice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuntmanCrowley Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: I'm tempted to agree - off topic, but here's a question for you: I haven't seen any of Walter on the main roster at all, has he wrestled Dolph?? I could see a guy like him attempting to out-do this You know what....I honestly have absolutely no idea. I'd be keen to see that myself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eivion Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: I'm tempted to agree - off topic, but here's a question for you: I haven't seen any of Walter on the main roster at all, has he wrestled Dolph?? I could see a guy like him attempting to out-do this He squashed him back in March. I literally have no memory of it. You should check out his main roster run. His matches with Rey, Ricochet, Sheamus, etc. have been great. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
just drew Posted June 10, 2023 Share Posted June 10, 2023 5 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said: You're totally entitled to everything else in your post because it's all personal preference, but idk if I can get behind you on this one - dare I say, I think you might be making this mistake yourself, in this instance. I'm not trying to be a dickhead, but dude: https://youtu.be/Zjl-Vu12J3w That’s fair, and you aren’t wrong about the live crowd reaction to that one spot, but why doesn’t it seem to translate to eyes on TV sets and butts in seats? NXt got demolished by an upstart while he was the focal point, and despite having the highest rated segment on dynamite (with a guy who routinely does that, let the record show), it doesn’t appear his audience from one show has followed him to the other. I’d love to know if he’d get that same reaction without music and an entrance designed to do everything possible to help him get over. Of all the truths MJF told about adam Cole on Wednesday, one of the most obvious was that Tony khan his bent over backwards to make adam Cole seem cool, and gone out of his way to do everything possible to make him seem like a big star, he loses viewers far more often than he gains them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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