Dynamite - 6/7/2023

[SirFozzie]

There's ongoing discussions  that I think has become personal and takes away from the discussion. (I don't agree with calling out posters by name, btw, especially when they're not part of the discussion and it's just to taunt them into responding)

[Octopus]

Call me old fashioned but we need a CM Pop Standards

[For Great Justice]

39 minutes ago, SirFozzie said:

My thoughts: I'm not a mod, or I'd propose the Dean~! rule (or for alliteration, the Rasmussen Rule.)

"No repeatedly yucking others yum". It's ok to say "The Bucks don't do anything for me, or "I don't find Adam Cole believable" in a thread, but there's no need for you to insert that opinion in every single thread (especially where we have multiple threads, like we do for AEW shows for example)

We are all here to celebrate the GREATEST FUCKING THING IN THE UNIVERSE (TM Dean Rasmussen)but let's realize while HOSS battles may excite some, others, they love the flippy lucha telenovela style. (just to give a couple style examples)

There seems to have, interestingly, developed some middle ground wherein Big Meaty Flippy Dudes is generally seen as not in favor. 

This has me strongly resisting the urge to create The Omnibus Mike Awesome thread because that dude was the shit

[Dolphman 3000]

5 minutes ago, SirFozzie said:

(I don't agree with calling out posters by name, btw, especially when they're not part of the discussion and it's just to taunt them into responding)

Yeah I'll agree with that, the "so where is (poster name) now, HUH?" tagging is lame

[Dog]

53 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Is this actually happening ...

Yes.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

58 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Call me old fashioned but we need a CM Pop Standards

CM Sophistipop.

[SirFozzie]

CM EDM?

[Hamhock]

I’m just chiming in very late on the “could this wrestler beat up my dad” tangent to say that the entire roster could, but as for his dad - my deceased grandfather? 5’8”, maybe 175 lbs., but a man who punched out his commanding officer during the war, and then bus drivers and cops in peacetime, and physically threw an insurance adjuster off of the front porch of his rowhouse down to the sidewalk (clearing a flight of steps)? The guy into slugged it out with his oldest brother after the funeral of their father?  I think he’d be AEW champion for life.

Jesus; I think I just talked myself into Orange Cassidy legitimately being a realistic AEW champion.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Hamhock

[Octopus]

Grandpa on my dad’s side was a Assistant Fire Chief in Minneapolis and Papa on my mom’s side was a goofy can’t not joke traveling paper salesman. They would make an intriguing tag team.

[SirFozzie]

they'd have to work heel, one would supply the flash paper, the other would throw the fireball.

[Ace]

4 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

I think Gedo finally letting the Bucks win the IWGP Tag Titles opened the floodgates for juniors to work in the heavyweight division, but that was more because he wanted to sell tickets for the first Long Beach show and have them walking in as champions

NJPW traditionally do not let their juniors and heavyweights comingle, but the lines are definitely blurred now - and that can be credited to the NJPW/ROH working relationship when all the ROH main eventers were smaller

Nitpick: It wasn't the first. Strong Style Evolved 2018 was the third Long Beach show and the first at the Walter Pyramid.

 

[John E. Dynamite]

6 hours ago, Octopus said:

Call me old fashioned but we need a CM Pop Standards

Look me in the eye and tell me lazy-dive-bar-Spotify-playlist-culture hasn't made "Ever Fallen In Love" a pop standard.

[zendragon]

I propose the Rick Ross test for all wrestlers 

Spoiler

If he deems you a “big muthatrucker” you pass

 

[Ingobernable]

15 hours ago, Gordlow said:

Oh hooray! Goodear is back. Matt wasn't trying to deny you the right to your lazy Cornette-lite take on Keith Lee. He was quite politely pointing out that your lazy Cornette-lite take on Keith Lee is no longer valid and hasn't been for quite some time. Since getting ill, Lee hasn't been working  a highspot intensive style at all. A fact which is 100% obvious to anyone who has actually been paying attention.

I knew that jumping in on this sort of discussion as a new poster might open me up to this sort of pushback but I am my own guy, albeit one who might share a bad take with someone else. I only mentioned Keith Lee because he'd already been brought up by someone else as an example of a wrestler who doesn't work a style consistent with their look but in a different way to Cole. 

In the interest of GOOD VIBES I would be happy to concede that my Keith Lee opinion (which I did try to turn into a more general point because I wanted to make it less about specific guys) could be out-of-date and that I've not paid enough attention to his more recent stuff because of that pre-formed view. I would also, if you wanted to propose a match, watch and review any recent Keith Lee match you'd like to propose. In good faith, of course.  

Edited June 13, 2023 by Ingobernable
grammar

[Matt D]

He's only wrestled 5 times this year, including a battle royal and two tag squashes with Dustin. I wouldn't wish Parker Boudreaux on an enemy, so maybe avoid that tag. Your best bet is actually the Jericho match (4/12 Dynamite).

Here were my quick thoughts.

Spoiler

Keith Lee's immobility is a feature and not a bug. I'm the guy who loves late-era Andre, though. Lee represents something completely different to everything else in the company, a unique problem that has to be solved. Jericho treated him with absolute respect in that match. He was treated like a force, like a center of gravity, like a powerhouse. Jericho only had an advantage when Keith Lee was half off his feet and it was his job to keep him that way all through the commercial break. Whenever Lee was fully on his feet, almost nothing Jericho could do would phase him. Conventional tactics don't work on him. If you had half the roster moving at his speed and wrestling like him, it'd be boring. But one guy who is treated like this? That's interesting! Wrestling doesn't need to be one thing, so long as everything is made to have a consistency of weight and meaning based on unique and differing qualities. I absolutely want to see one Keith Lee match where a wrestler has to deal with this slowly encroaching doom coming for them every 2-3 weeks. It's not every match but it stands out. 

 

[Technico Support]

I honestly don't care what style a guy works, as long as he can do it well.  I used to always bitch about babyface Luchasaurus and how he should just work like Sid.  That wasn't because of any sort of "big guys should work like big guys dammit" view.  It was more because Luchasaurus insisted on doing shitty slo mo karate and no guy his size needs to be badly cosplaying Stan Lane's ring work.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Technico Support

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

3 hours ago, Ingobernable said:

I knew that jumping in on this sort of discussion as a new poster might open me up to this sort of pushback but I am my own guy, albeit one who might share a bad take with someone else. I only mentioned Keith Lee because he'd already been brought up by someone else as an example of a wrestler who doesn't work a style consistent with their look but in a different way to Cole. 

In the interest of GOOD VIBES I would be happy to concede that my Keith Lee opinion (which I did try to turn into a more general point because I wanted to make it less about specific guys) could be out-of-date and that I've not paid enough attention to his more recent stuff because of that pre-formed view. I would also, if you wanted to propose a match, watch and review any recent Keith Lee match you'd like to propose. In good faith, of course.  

That sounds just great. If you are prepared to check and see whether your take still holds water, then I'll prepare myself to stand corrected, issue a retraction, roll out the red carpet, and possibly engage in some spirited discussion about why I feel it is a good thing that pro wrestling has moved beyond the comforting but overly-restrictive cliches of the 1980s and wrestlers can now be allowed a greater degree of creative freedom and self-expression. I am sincerely looking forward to reading your review. And I am pleased to see that my friend Matt has already recommended Keith Lee vs Chris Jericho, Dynamite #184 12.04.2023 from Milwaukee. An excellent choice if you're interested in seeing how Keith Lee works these days. Edit: this also makes the multi-person tag that Lee is fighting in on Dynamite this week just a little bit more intriguing. I am, now, slighly more interested in seeing what he does there. And I was plenty interested already.

Edited June 13, 2023 by Gordlow

[Gorman]

22 hours ago, Peck said:

I think the worst-case scenario is that the 10-year-old grows up and becomes a wrestler (like Izzy), pins you 1-2-3, and then says, "I don't respect you, booker man."

[Ingobernable]

Chris Jericho vs Keith Lee

First up the really important stuff: Chris Jericho is only nine years younger than my dad so there’s a world in which they could hang but ultimately I don’t think there’d be any contest. Even without my dad’s arthritic ankles Jericho’s bringing a fireball and you can’t mess with that. Keith Lee is twenty years younger than my dad and looks like a boulder and you can’t mess with that either. The lads are two up on my dad. LEGIT wrestlers on the eye test.

We’re told that this match has happened because Lee wants to teach Jericho a lesson about respect and it’s wild that Jericho has got this far without being taught that lesson. I like Lee’s Big Cape and his big grey beard. He’s doing lots of little hops and skips after some of his offence and I start to feel a bit ungenerous but then he starts throwing hands and wins me over. The opening portion is just Lee slowly beating Jericho down and I like it. (As an aside I kind of hate what picture in picture does to matches like this – Jericho is on top during the break and Lee gets nothing. I think he’s selling too much but nobody sees it so it’s fine). They do a cool bit where Lee gets energised every time he gets chopped. I also love a sequence where he sprints through a clothesline and then just WIPES Jericho out with a tackle. Jericho has given Lee some of his best shots and it’s just helping him build momentum in response. I don’t hate the moonsault because spot with the knees is cute and it’s part of a much more BURLY approach. The finishing stretch holds the pace I’ve been enjoying and shenanigans are fine because it’s a TV main.

So yeah this is a cool TV main with plenty to enjoy. I really enjoyed the pacing (PIP aside) and there were some cute spots. A few things I’d nitpick about but I won’t labour them. If this was the first Keith Lee match I’d watched I’d be interested in more and I won’t let my attention get drawn elsewhere next time he’s on Dynamite.

Here’s the thing though. While this experiment shows me my specific Keith Lee take is out-of-date, it’s actually sort of added weight to my original position. I find this Keith Lee - big burly shitkicker with a moonsault – much more entertaining than earlier iterations of Keith Lee. My point was never intended to be about Keith Lee, who someone else had brought up in the context of a big dude with a sprinty style (not a claim I’d make on the evidence of this match). It was about how there should be a place in wrestling for people with all sorts of body types, but it certainly helps me to engage with their matches if they’re not wrestling a style that feels incongruous to their look. I don’t think that means the same as something like “all wrestlers should be jacked” or “all slim wrestlers should just do flips”.   

[zendragon]

There’s value in a big guy knowing when to do his stuff as well, people point to Taker doing dives but he didn’t go to the top rope against say Rey Mysterio 

[NoFistsJustFlips]

17 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Is this actually happening, or are you exaggerating because critical discussion gives you the sads

I don't think anyone's being out of line here

Do you not read the threads you post in? Every single weekly AEW thread gets Adam Cole or Young Bucks size / dweeb / can't kick anyones's ass / book themselves like The Road Warriors / blah blah blah shit from Drew. Literally every week. Or can't wait to see this week's rating tank because Cole / Bucks / whoever are not over. It's real tiring.

I say it a bunch. Like who you like. Dislike who you dislike. Everyone's opinions are valid. But when you spam your opinion all the time, and even worse, conflate it with a fact instead of an opinion... it's too much. No hate on Drew here, I generally like reading his thoughts. I could just do without his Young Bucks & Adam Cole hate having to be stamped onto every initial post he makes in a Dynamite thread.

[JLowe]

I use the Vader standard for huge dudes like Keith Lee. Moonsaults and Vaderbombs are kosher.

[Ingobernable]

3 minutes ago, JLowe said:

I use the Vader standard for huge dudes like Keith Lee. Moonsaults and Vaderbombs are kosher.

This checks out for me. In that Jericho match I also liked how Taz was still really hyping how quick Lee was on his feet except the context for that is now him running at a dweeb like a truck. 

[zendragon]

19 minutes ago, JLowe said:

I use the Vader standard for huge dudes like Keith Lee. Moonsaults and Vaderbombs are kosher.

And those moves where his finish, lotsa clobbering and then a dude who’s billed at 400+ lands on you. He wasn’t out there doing cartwheels just to show he could

[Dolphman 3000]

1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

No hate on Drew here, I generally like reading his thoughts. I could just do without his Young Bucks & Adam Cole hate having to be stamped onto every initial post he makes in a Dynamite thread.

We just had a thread regular register a sockpuppet account to put over what is generally considered a terrible match between Chris Jericho and Keith Lee

Plenty of derangement on both sides of the coin