June 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[Dolphman 3000]

1 minute ago, John E. Dynamite said:

In other lucha libre news, Rush (and his dad) just up and quit AAA despite being booked in the Triplemania co-main w/ LA Park vs. Psycho Cloen & Sam Adonis. He claims he's "completely independent".

All I can think of is Rush and LA Park must have some gentleman's agreement to hold off on a Lucha de Apuestas match until Park's ready to retire

Because they've both been ducking it for years now

[odessasteps]

Almost as long as Park and Wagner teased their mask match.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

4 hours ago, Octopus said:

@NoFistsJustFlips, I don’t agree with the necessity to feel that someone can not enjoy a booking decision when the business is doing well. Apologies if I’m misreading you. 
I personal don’t mind Roman as super champion. I wish things were a tad different at different points, but he is good at what they want to do. With WWE in general, I can dip in and out.

I'm not saying you have to like a booking decision just because it's doing good business. I mean to say everyone conflates their opinion with the right thing / the wrong thing to do business-wise. You can like or not like whatever stories are put in front of you. I just don't like to see when people say they are fucking up or this is the wrong thing to do. Say it's something you don't enjoy or don't like, but you can't say they are doing the wrong thing. Roman not defending the title a lot isn't them messing up. It's working. It's making Roman more of a draw. That's all. I'm just talking about the way it's relayed. Opinions are opinions, not facts.

The current fact are houses are up and ratings are up. Viewership is up. Profits are up. It's not really correct to say any decision they are making is wrong.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

39 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I'm not saying you have to like a booking decision just because it's doing good business. I mean to say everyone conflates their opinion with the right thing / the wrong thing to do business-wise. You can like or not like whatever stories are put in front of you. I just don't like to see when people say they are fucking up or this is the wrong thing to do. Say it's something you don't enjoy or don't like, but you can't say they are doing the wrong thing. Roman not defending the title a lot isn't them messing up. It's working. It's making Roman more of a draw. That's all. I'm just talking about the way it's relayed. Opinions are opinions, not facts.

The current fact are houses are up and ratings are up. Viewership is up. Profits are up. It's not really correct to say any decision they are making is wrong.

If any of us knew what we were talking about re: the wrestling business, obviously we'd be millionaire bookers.

Instead we're the niche folks who like weird things and that's cool because everyone should like what they like, as long as they leave others alone for liking what they like.

[Octopus]

33 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I'm not saying you have to like a booking decision just because it's doing good business. I mean to say everyone conflates their opinion with the right thing / the wrong thing to do business-wise. You can like or not like whatever stories are put in front of you. I just don't like to see when people say they are fucking up or this is the wrong thing to do. Say it's something you don't enjoy or don't like, but you can't say they are doing the wrong thing. Roman not defending the title a lot isn't them messing up. It's working. It's making Roman more of a draw. That's all. I'm just talking about the way it's relayed. Opinions are opinions, not facts.

The current fact are houses are up and ratings are up. Viewership is up. Profits are up. It's not really correct to say any decision they are making is wrong.

I think you’re riding a fine line well here (and I think you’re a cool dude) and like how you didn’t “mean to pick on @Shartnado” I don’t mean to pick on you. I do find it troublesome (the same way you do with people saying a booking decision is “stupid”) to dismiss  criticism (usually Art criticism like film criticism, wrestling booking discussions, music reviews, etc) with well it’s popular and makes money. I personally saw a lot of it when the first Avatar came out. The discussion of taste and evaluating story was often met with “well it’s popular for a reason.”
I also feel the initial post you quoted was less an insult towards Roman having the titles and more a joke towards introducing a new title without having the other guy drop it, so we can have more titles. Gunther not dropping the IC title but bringing back the European belt or even a new one like AEW was initially mocked for having too many belts. But yes, if having Seth or whoever as an opposite show’s new main title makes WWE more money, then it is smart for the company to do. Someone can think it is “stupid” from a storytelling opinion without having to tip toe around language that involves financials. Or we as readers can use context and if we respect the person making the statement, understand where they are actually coming from. Twilight is stupid in my opinion, and yet people made an enormous amount of money from it. 
Buuuuuut, very likely I’m being a hypocrite here: I tend to eye-roll when people say things a long the lines of “[insert wrestler here] can’t layout a match” and things of that nature. I mentally require the same careful language that you are requesting. So yes, maybe I need to evaluate the feelings that arise when I felt the need to defend my wet-fart-hazardous-weather-friend from my name-playing-off-fun-tag-team-slogan friend, when I myself am in the same position of NoSpotsOnlyRestholds. 
So don’t mind me as I reevaluate my thoughts. I do this posts out of love of the game, self discovery, and a hope we can all grow closer and internet friends.

[DJ Hero Morganti]

Real talk.  The internet jas killed nuanced discussions in most places.  I am very glad that even when we get on the highest of horses, we as a collective group try to bring ot back to rational and nuanced discussion instead of hyperbole and wanting to our opinions to be right, instead of letting our opinions be opinions, and facts to be facts. 

 

We are pretty good about talking about business decisions working or not vs booking as entertainment working or not with ones self rather than tryna make your opinions your identity... Most of the time

[username]

3 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

If any of us knew what we were talking about re: the wrestling business, obviously we'd be millionaire bookers.

I mean the last DVDVR guy who got the chance to book a national promotion did pretty okay, so...

[Cobra Commander]

watching a June 1990 episode of WWF Wrestling Challenge on YouTube, and i'm guessing there weren't any Jake The Snake feuds about how Jake's opponent liked snakes more than Jake

also a Jim Powers vs Rick Martel match, a clash of dudes with exquisite hair. Apparently Rick Martel and Ron Garvin had an issue at this time.

This episode was taped in the Northeast if the promos for the Boston Garden and Manchester's JFK Coliseum  and Portland Maine are any indicator (i'm guessing the main New Hampshire tape source wasn't selling full episodes of Wrestling Challenge)

Edited June 11, 2023 by Cobra Commander

[NoFistsJustFlips]

If my post came off as one of those 'well Hogan is clearly the best worker ever because he made the most money' then I didn't relay my thought well. That's not how I was hoping to come off. And you're right Shartnado's post wasn't really a huge knock on Roman. So I may have went on a tangent that didn't really warrant that quote lol.

Opinions on artistic value and storytelling quality are valid things. I guess there's a lot of post that just read in my head more as questioning business decisions via the storytelling choices. Like LOTS of people slammed the Wrestlemania finish and how Roman holding the titles so long is a huge mistake and ruining the company. And when I read those ruining the company things it doesn't read as 'ruining my enjoyment of the art / story' it reads to me as coming from an opinion of business is tanking because of these choices are not the choices I wanted.

Could just be a me reading into things wrong thing. But there are a lot of posts I read that come off like that to me.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

9 hours ago, username said:

I mean the last DVDVR guy who got the chance to book a national promotion did pretty okay, so...

Time for that guy who always wanted to book Bunkhouse Buck as the mastermind behind every plot to get his big break then. Start him off with MLW, let's see what happens.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

9 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

If my post came off as one of those 'well Hogan is clearly the best worker ever because he made the most money' then I didn't relay my thought well. That's not how I was hoping to come off.

Yeah personally I thought you just attended too many Al Snow seminars.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I think it's too early to say whether Cody losing at WrestleMania was a bad idea for the long term.  People are still invested in both him and The Bloodline story for sure but if come next year's WrestleMania The Bloodline has fizzled out and Cody is coming out to lukewarm reactions then you can obviously look back at WM the previous year and say that's where they should have pulled the trigger.  For now everything is fine.  

[NoFistsJustFlips]

Let's use this as a jumping off point. Let's say they gave Cody the title at Mania. What's next? What keeps fans engaged? I know that's a hard question to answer with any true accuracy. But Cody gets a conquering hero promo on Raw hat gets interrupted. And we still probably end up getting the exact same story we got that night. Brock turns on him and we get Brock vs Cody as an extended feud with the title involved. Then what happens with The Bloodline? They probably still run their same story, but without the backdrop of The Bloodline being a device to keep the title on Roman. So it lacks a lot of that urgency it has now.

I just think (note this is a thought not trying to pass it off as a fact lol), that Cody wasn't going to be any better off for winning. The win is a nice feel good moment in the short term. But in the long term that would have taken some steam out of the most over story, and added really nothing to Cody's over-ness. It's all a guessing game. Cody is arguably the number one babyface in the company. Would a win transfer how over & how much of a draw Reigns is to Cody? I don't think so. Roman is still the guy, just with a little less steam.

Again that's business talk and not really storytelling as an art talk. If it was Cody's story, then a win there is the best artistic conclusion. But I'm of the opinion this is one long Roman story. So his story being ended by a new challenger that just happened to win The Royal Rumble and didn't actually have much of a personal issue or story with him, that is not the best artistic conclusion. But that is certainly up for debate.

[Dolphman 3000]

I'm of the opinion "go with the hot hand and worry about the fallout after".

Luger took 4 years to recover from the Yokozuna loss, and by then he was in another company - now Cody's walking around with a martyr complex and trying to simulate his Dad's career (wanting a Bullrope match with Lesnar is especially cringey).

If he never wins the big one in WWE and ends up back in AEW as their world champion, he'll have successfully followed the Dusty/Luger formula. But it seems like such a waste given all the momentum he had.

[Infinit]

It doesn't help that Roman hasn't defended the title since Mania.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Cody also hadn't lost prior to WrestleMania so the people who currently complain about lolromanwins would just shift to lolcodywins and get mad whenever Cody has a successful defense because he's not putting anyone over and how dare they and what about this person et cetera et cetera.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't, really.

[For Great Justice]

Feels like Wardlow early last year and Stroman a few years ago near Elimination Chamber are recent examples of this. Scorching hot, trigger not pulled, and now just a guy. 

Cody’s certainly maintaining the momentum so far but agree that there’s this line between “top guy” and “cosplaying his dad’s career who just so happened to be a top guy”. I half expect him to blurt out a “make it good” during a Lesnar parking lot attack next Monday and yeah it’s cringey as hell. But no denying his popularity at this stage.

[Octopus]

Eh, I feel like we hit the same talking points on the Cody v Roman what if. (Not that it shouldn’t be discussed, go for it as I am now lol) The question of “well then what” is a tough one to answer because it depends on the competency of the booking and the ability of the performers. Would Cody as Champion after an all time great Wrestlemania moment make me want to see what happens next and could the feud with Brock involve the title? Does the implosion of the Bloodline need the title? I don’t really have the answers to that. I feel that WWE leading up to Mania was firing on all cylinders and I am fearful of recent memory WWE losing my interest when I emotionally invest in the promotion. 

I’m in a camp that I didn’t like the loss, but could very much love the loss with how everything plays out. With a Cody win, I would likely have my favorite WWE style match of all time. With the Cody loss, I have the usual feeling of a grand Vikings loss (which sounds and is negative, but heartbreak is a memorable feeling). 

This can all be said for Zayn and maybe even to a lesser sense Drew. 

IFFFFFF, Cody or honestly anyone else can create the same level of monumental pandemonium and Roman can maintain an intriguing (with the help of the cast of characters around him) for a hottest crowd in recent memory at a Wrestlemania main event, then they paid off and will likely have created my favorite wrestling arc of all time. Anything short of that or slightly less than that is what it is, less. Granted, that doesn’t mean it can’t be enjoyable still or win me back into the fold. WWE has done a remarkable thing by setting a very high bar and I’m excited to see if they can clear it! I guess this puts me in the wait and see camp. I’m giving them until Wrestlemania or a lolGoldberg moment.

If they do not, I’ll blame mustache Vince. If they do, HHH is a genius. Will we get the Son of Dusty’s Hard Times or Cody’s Half-Chub Moments? 

[Cobra Commander]

We've been through the "WWF/WCW doesn't want to push this dude but he really should be pushed" thing so many times with wrestlers better than Cody Rhodes that it's hard to get up for Cody Rhodes compared to Benoit, Eddy or Daniel Bryan Danielson.

[Technico Support]

On 6/8/2023 at 2:06 PM, SirSmUgly said:

Jesus, I'd hope you wouldn't try to wake someone up from being KO'd with a giant Mongolian chop IRL. If that was an actual thing, I'd be astonished. 

Still not the worst method of resuscitation I’ve seen

 

 

[Niners Fan in CT]

7 hours ago, Cobra Commander said:

We've been through the "WWF/WCW doesn't want to push this dude but he really should be pushed" thing so many times with wrestlers better than Cody Rhodes that it's hard to get up for Cody Rhodes compared to Benoit, Eddy or Daniel Bryan Danielson.

I think Cody is better than Benoit.   Not in the ring but certainly as an overall performer.  

[DreamBroken]

I still think everything happening now makes more sense if Cody won.  Brock can't challenge for the title with Roman as champion, if Cody won, suddenly Brock has a reason to attack and target him. Instead, despite teasing one, we get no explanation for why Brock turned.  The Bloodline falling apart because of Roman losing the title, it made him desperate to try and win the tag titles, was a reason for him to treat the Usos worse and cause all the current melodrama, etc. As it is, the Bloodline's falling apart and it's supposedly all about keeping the title on Roman when he hasn't even had any challengers coming for him.   I personally lost all interest at Mania and no longer have any investment in whoever beating Roman, especially with the whole "oh well lets just make a new title". Cody's dangerously close to just another guy territory doing 50/50 booking like everyone else since (beats Finn, loses 3 way to Finn, beats Brock, loses to Brock)

[Phantom Lord]

14 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

Time for that guy who always wanted to book Bunkhouse Buck as the mastermind behind every plot to get his big break then. Start him off with MLW, let's see what happens.

Replace Bunkhouse Buck with Mance Warner and they might be onto something. 

[TheVileOne]

1 hour ago, DreamBroken said:

I still think everything happening now makes more sense if Cody won.  Brock can't challenge for the title with Roman as champion, if Cody won, suddenly Brock has a reason to attack and target him. Instead, despite teasing one, we get no explanation for why Brock turned.  The Bloodline falling apart because of Roman losing the title, it made him desperate to try and win the tag titles, was a reason for him to treat the Usos worse and cause all the current melodrama, etc. As it is, the Bloodline's falling apart and it's supposedly all about keeping the title on Roman when he hasn't even had any challengers coming for him.   I personally lost all interest at Mania and no longer have any investment in whoever beating Roman, especially with the whole "oh well lets just make a new title". Cody's dangerously close to just another guy territory doing 50/50 booking like everyone else since (beats Finn, loses 3 way to Finn, beats Brock, loses to Brock)

What they should've just done is Roman Reigns vs. Sami Zayn at WrestleMania and held off Cody for another year if they weren't serious about putting the belt on him.

 

[Casey]

maybe @RIPPA can help me out, maybe someone else can find it - I used to have a DVDVR link for a list in the website (not the board) that a had a shitload of women’s matches on it. But now I can’t find it? I’m pretty positive it was from here anyway. It had YouTube videos embedded and everything.