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November 2022 Wrestling Discussion


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1 hour ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I take it there's been no Jericho-Sting business in AEW yet because Jericho's been involved in other longterm stuff and was face for a while, but hopefully once he drops the ROH strap we can get something along those lines. Or even just a fun random tag at the next New Japan crossover like the one that got us some Sting-Bucks interaction. 

I was just talking with some people about how Jericho vs. Jarrett hasn't happened outside of a couple short matches on Nitro and Worldwide

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6 hours ago, Octopus said:

FaAaAnTaSy FuN!

You got a Time Machine and a large Cup shaped trophy. Book an Eight person tournament. Who you picking and who faces who?

I'd probably have to think harder about this because what I came up with feels like I'm missing something. First attempt anyway...North American bracket is Side A, Japanese bracket is side B. Mostly dream matches that I want to see or matches that the wrestlers involved have stated that they want to have, at least on Side A:

Side A:

Bret Hart vs. Kurt Angle. So they can get that dream match they've both talked about. Bret wins.

Kenny Omega vs. AJ Styles. I know they wanted to do this at a Wrestlemania. This ain't it, but I'm holding the book! But, hypocritically: they can figure it out amongst themselves who wins. To them, I don't know that the match is about that anyway as opposed to the overall performance.

Bret wins the bracket.

Side B:

Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenta Kobashi. Kobashi takes it.

Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada (I'm pretty sure this happened. I don't care, I want to see it again with both guys in their top form.) Tanahashi wins.

Tana squeaks by Kobashi to win the bracket.

Final: Bret vs. Tana. Couldn't care less who wins, just want to see it. 

Edited by Teflon Turtle
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I could sworn the closest we got to Savage vs. Jericho is when Savage was doing the whole nutso thing when Liz was spending the "divorce money" and Savage was hitting top rope elbow drops on all the jobbers and mid carders. However, Jericho wasn't WCW at that point so the timeline is a bit off.

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7 hours ago, Octopus said:

FaAaAnTaSy FuN!

You got a Time Machine and a large Cup shaped trophy. Book an Eight person tournament. Who you picking and who faces who?

Ok let's try this.

97 Bret vs 84 Tito

88 Hogan vs 85 Nikita 

86 Flair vs 08 Cena

92 Liger vs 01 HHH

Bret vs Hogan 

Flair vs Liger

Bret over Flair.

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My tournament:

First round:

The Assassin (Jody Hamilton) vs. The Assassin (David Sierra)

Tito Santana (WWF) vs. Tito Santana (AAA)

Doink The Clown (Matt Borne) vs Doink The Clown (Steve Keirn) - Special Guest Referee Doink The Clown (Ray Apollo)

Dangerous Doug Gilbert vs. Gashouse Doug Gilbert

Second Round:

Doink The Clown (Matt Borne) vs. Dangerous Doug Gilbert (Doink goes over here after a switcheroo with Keirn Doink)

Tito Santana (WWF) vs. The Assassin (Jody Hamilton)

Finals:

Tito Santana (WWF) vs Doink The Clown (Borne) vs. Doink The Clown (Keirn) in a 3-way hastily thrown together after the shenanigans of the previous round. WWF Tito goes over. 

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It freaks me out in WWF that Keirn goes from Skinner to (when he's not being used anymore as Skinner) Doink II when Doink (Borne) is feuding with Crush to a WWF agent in the late 93/early 94. Rene Goulet and Strongbow and Garea I'm used to. Then this Corbin Bernsen looking dude rolls out there to break up a fracas and then I have to remember it's Keirn.

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Randomly paired tournament:

  • Kurt Angle (2007 TNA) vs Keiji Mutoh (2001 All/New Japan)
  • Vader (2000 NOAH) vs "Stone Cold" Steve Austin (1999 WWF)
  • Rob Van Dam (1999 ECW) vs Shawn Michaels (1996 WWF)
  • Toshiaki Kawada (1992 All Japan) vs Mike Awesome (1999 ECW/All Japan)

Whatever women's tournament I'd fantasy book with a time machine, Bull Nakano would win it. 2014/2015 Bayley versus 1991/1992 Nakano would be really fun.

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2 hours ago, Casey said:

Randomly paired tournament:

  • Kurt Angle (2007 TNA) vs Keiji Mutoh (2001 All/New Japan)
  • Vader (2000 NOAH) vs "Stone Cold" Steve Austin (1999 WWF)
  • Rob Van Dam (1999 ECW) vs Shawn Michaels (1996 WWF)
  • Toshiaki Kawada (1992 All Japan) vs Mike Awesome (1999 ECW/All Japan)

Whatever women's tournament I'd fantasy book with a time machine, Bull Nakano would win it. 2014/2015 Bayley versus 1991/1992 Nakano would be really fun.

It sucks that Prichard and I believe JR as well push the notion that Vader was just done physically when he got to them in 1996. The guy had a whole run when he left WWF. Moreover, the booking for him in WWF was kinda mediocre up until they put him over Shawn right before Summerslam. He was just another hill for Shawn to climb over as WWF champion. Add in he was coming off shoulder surgery and the fact none of the top WWF guys were gonna take the shellacking that Flair, Cactus, and Sting took in WCW to get him over as a true monster.

And oh, any women's tournament I book would have 2004-2006 Yoshiko Tamura going over everybody. With on her game Utami Hayashishita, post comeback Arisa Nakajima, mid 80s Jaguar Yokota, mid 80s Lioness Asuka, and prime Mariko Yoshida in the honorable mentions category, that is the rawest and most brutal young lady I ever seen enter the squared circle. Everyone else is just fighting to finish as 1st runner up.

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The Octopus Cup

95 Lord Steven Regal vs 93 Genichiro Tenryu

05 Lo Ki vs 89 Ricky Steamboat

01 El Satanico vs 82 Nick Bockwinkel 

19 Daisuke Sekimoto vs 04 Kenta Kobashi 

——-

Tenryu goes over Regal in a hard fought battle.

Low Ki kicks Steamboat a lot but Steamboat comes back from a pounding.

Bockwinkel get tied up by older face Satanico, but due to dirty tactics Bockwinkel wins.

Kobashi and Sekimoto do long grapples and deviating chops. Kobashi goes over.

————

Steamboat vs Tenryu

Bockwinkel be Kobashi

———-

Uh oh! After the Kobashi win, Heenan makes a surprise entrance as Bockwinkel’s manager. Declares he pulled strings and corrupted the Octopus into announcing their match right away. No dancing girls like we were promised, only the Heels get that. Bockwinkel comes out and picks a part a tired beaten old Kobashi. But he fights back and chops the hell out of a once cocky Bockwinkel. Heenan distracts the ref and Bockwinkel kicks Kenta in the balls. Bock wins.

Tenryu vs Steamboat is a thing of beauty. The audience cries in it’s glory. Steamboat wins from underneath. 

———

Steamboat vs Bockwinkel

———

Scholars will write about this match. Two possible outcomes based on if this is the start of a promotion or just a yearly tournament:

Yearly tournament? Steamboat wins clean and punches Heenan for trying to cheat.

Start of a Promotion? Heenan calls out the Holy Demon Amy (Kawada & Taue) to beat up Stwamboat. RoadWarriors clear them out. Heenan is ejected! Steamboat is going to win! But wait, is that? Could it be? Nah, couldn’t? But it’s…it is…could it? A young Rocky Maivia interferes! Bockwinkel wins. Rocky changes his name to The Bock after his new mentor. The team of Nick Bockwinkel, The Bock, Bockiaki Kawada, & Bockira Taue managed by Bocky Heenan are named The Four Bockmen and for months they ravage through the Octopus Wrestling Alliance until they are challenged in a War Games. 

The Four Bockmen vs (Ricky Steamboat, Tugboat, A-Train, Hot Rod Rowdy Piper, and Northrop F-5 Brock Lesnar) Plane, Train, Automobile, and MOTHER FUCKING BOATS!!!

 

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

It sucks that Prichard and I believe JR as well push the notion that Vader was just done physically when he got to them in 1996. The guy had a whole run when he left WWF. Moreover, the booking for him in WWF was kinda mediocre up until they put him over Shawn right before Summerslam. He was just another hill for Shawn to climb over as WWF champion. Add in he was coming off shoulder surgery and the fact none of the top WWF guys were gonna take the shellacking that Flair, Cactus, and Sting took in WCW to get him over as a true monster.

And oh, any women's tournament I book would have 2004-2006 Yoshiko Tamura going over everybody. With on her game Utami Hayashishita, post comeback Arisa Nakajima, mid 80s Jaguar Yokota, mid 80s Lioness Asuka, and prime Mariko Yoshida in the honorable mentions category, that is the rawest and most brutal young lady I ever seen enter the squared circle. Everyone else is just fighting to finish as 1st runner up.

I've mentioned this in regards to Jeff Jarrett, but having rewatched post-Screwjob 1997 WWF up until 2000 currently with a buddy of mine... Vader is a complete afterthought. End of '97/1998 he's in a weird feud with Goldust & Luna, then used to put over the new giant monster pick in Kane, loses to everyone on WWF's syndicated shows. We laughed at Vader calling himself a piece of shit in an interview, but it's really kind of sad. Then, what, months later, he's back in All Japan and it's like a totally different guy. His run from like late 98 to maybe 02 or so is really good. Wasn't really a big fan of the team with 2 Cold Scorpio, but it's fun (and weird) seeing Scorpio wrestle the likes of Akiyama and Misawa, though.

I really need to step up my 80s-mid 00s joshi watching. I'm pretty exclusively just Nakano/Kong/Hokuto/Toyota matches, and some current Stardom/TJPW with a real small sampling of Sendai Girls mixed in. Not the same conversation, but I'm still trying to find Billie Starkz vs Yuka Sakazaki somewhere.

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44 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Steamboat vs Bockwinkel

Here's something you probably didn't know:

There were a series of Bockwinkel vs Steamboat matches in JCP in 79. Most were for the AWA title but sometimes Steamboat defended the TV title and it ended in a title vs title match that was, of course, a count out. We don't even have a glimmer of these obviously.

791019_hampton.jpg

Edited by Matt D
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2 hours ago, Casey said:

I've mentioned this in regards to Jeff Jarrett, but having rewatched post-Screwjob 1997 WWF up until 2000 currently with a buddy of mine... Vader is a complete afterthought. End of '97/1998 he's in a weird feud with Goldust & Luna, then used to put over the new giant monster pick in Kane, loses to everyone on WWF's syndicated shows. We laughed at Vader calling himself a piece of shit in an interview, but it's really kind of sad. Then, what, months later, he's back in All Japan and it's like a totally different guy. His run from like late 98 to maybe 02 or so is really good. Wasn't really a big fan of the team with 2 Cold Scorpio, but it's fun (and weird) seeing Scorpio wrestle the likes of Akiyama and Misawa, though.

I really need to step up my 80s-mid 00s joshi watching. I'm pretty exclusively just Nakano/Kong/Hokuto/Toyota matches, and some current Stardom/TJPW with a real small sampling of Sendai Girls mixed in. Not the same conversation, but I'm still trying to find Billie Starkz vs Yuka Sakazaki somewhere.

Once you get out the AJW comfort zone and go through most of the notable matches, it's pretty freeing. Unfortunately, there isn't a laundry list of great AJW matches post 97 exodus. There is some good stuff with Momoe/Nanae/Watanabe/Ito vs. LCO/Maekawa and freshly turned Hotta and Toyota in various permutations and some decent stuff with Black Joker, but you can go through that pretty quickly. The good thing and probably bittersweet thing is once you get to the dark age era of like JWP, NEO, OZ, and some of the other promotions in the mid 2000s, you can see the through line for what's going to today and how influential that generation is today's generation. Kaori Yoneyama is kinda a bit player in Stardom as Fukigen Death, but in her heyday, she was a badass wrestler. Same with Emi Sakura. Also, you run into some straight weird shit like Kyoko Kimura and Bullfight Sora vs. prepubescent Rebecca Knox and whoever the hell she was tagging with, and it's like you're on some type of LCD trip. You're going to get pleasantly surprised a lot.

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6 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Kaori Yoneyama is kinda a bit player in Stardom as Fukigen Death, but in her heyday, she was a badass wrestler.

Yoneyama confuses me as she was still that wrestler when she started in Stardom and can still clearly go now. I'm curious why she decided she would rather do mostly comedy.

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2 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Yoneyama confuses me as she was still that wrestler when she started in Stardom and can still clearly go now. I'm curious why she decided she would rather do mostly comedy.

Maybe she gets her kicks doing stuff like YMZ and being wacky. That and besides like Tam Nakano who no one would believe is older than 25 and Nanae returning, there ain't that many women in Stardom over 30. Risa Sera is 31, but she's basically working freelance/has her own promotion. KAIRI is 34 but she isn't on every tour obviously.

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2 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Maybe she gets her kicks doing stuff like YMZ and being wacky. That and besides like Tam Nakano who no one would believe is older than 25 and Nanae returning, there ain't that many women in Stardom over 30. Risa Sera is 31, but she's basically working freelance/has her own promotion. KAIRI is 34 but she isn't on every tour obviously.

Mai Sakurai, Mina Shirakawa, Natsuko Tora, Syuri, Sayaka Unagi, & Momo Kohgo are all over 30. Unagi and Kohgo are apparently in 37-38 range. 

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49 minutes ago, Eivion said:

Mai Sakurai, Mina Shirakawa, Natsuko Tora, Syuri, Sayaka Unagi, & Momo Kohgo are all over 30. Unagi and Kohgo are apparently in 37-38 range. 

....that's exactly my point. Besides Syuri who holds the red belt, is a top 5 female worker, and probably top 15-20 regardless of gender, who of that group is getting a push? Mina just got a shot at the Wonder of Stardom title (almost had her jaw detached from her skull in the process fwiw), but she serves a certain role. Add in the fact, Tam, Unagi, and Mina could all pass for 21 and no one would bat an eye. The latter two only started wrestling 3 years ago. Tora just came back from injury just to job to Utami and finish off that red belt match that got cut short.

If you take away the girls that are * > 35 or on the cusp of 30 like Iwatani, you don't many approaching 40 or way over like the aforementioned Yoneyama and Nanae who obviously help found the company. You definitely don't have ones who are getting significant pushes. So for someone like Yoneyama, I can see why she would just decide to be the comedy person in the openers. Now is she underutilized based on her skill level? Yes, but that is probably applicable to a bunch of (most likely younger) women on that roster. 

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My tournament bracket -

2003/04 WWE Eddie Guerrero vs 2022 AEW Bryan Danielson 

This match would be story telling at it's absolute peak. The counters, the mat work, the Lucha mixed with the Strong style... 

2007/08 WWE John Cena vs 2011/12 NJPW Hiroshi Tanahashi 

It's 'peak' Ace vs 'peak' Ace. Cena was great in this time as a hated man who worked as a super face. Tanahashi was the ultimate "fave of a company" and the I think he could take Cena to the absolute limit. 

1993/94 WCW Sting vs 2012-14 WWE Brock Lesnar

Sting's best ever work (IMO) was as the athletic underdog vs Vader. Lesnar's work when he first returned to WWE was next level. Before the Suplex City stuff started up he was really good at working his size and strength advantages into interesting matches. 

1993/94 WWE Bret Hart vs 1999/00 WWE Mick Foley 

I really loved Bret's work vs bigger guys in 93. The Razor match at the Rumble, the KOTR matches, the Diesel match... Foley in 99 was a madman and his turn as Cactus Jack made Triple H a main event star. I think these two could work a pretty vicious little match here.

Not sure on the semis and finals just yet... Will come back to it one day.

 

Edited by L_W_P
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15 hours ago, Phantom Lord said:

There's an alternate time line where The Iron Sheik didnt loose the title and he and Slaughter's blood soaked war in the summer over the belt is the stuff of legend.

This is an interesting answer to the question "What does Vince do if he can't get Hogan to jump?"

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