Your wrestling HOT TAKES

[supremebve]

40 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

Mero, Jacqueline, Luna, and Goldust don't get enough credit for how much they helped her get over, though. 

Jacqueline is in the WWE hall of fame, and quite frankly her work in getting Sable over is probably the only reason she was considered.  You could make a case that she's the most important female worker in the company's history, because without her I don't think they'd ever really push women as wrestlers.  Sable was the star, but Jackie was the one who made it work.

[SirSmUgly]

5 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Jacqueline is in the WWE hall of fame, and quite frankly her work in getting Sable over is probably the only reason she was considered.  You could make a case that she's the most important female worker in the company's history, because without her I don't think they'd ever really push women as wrestlers.  Sable was the star, but Jackie was the one who made it work.

I think (from what I can glean) wrestlers value her work, but I don't think the general fandom values it enough. 

[odessasteps]

The Brad Armstrong of ladies wrestling. 

[clintthecrippler]

On 3/15/2025 at 11:32 AM, zendragon said:

More like Blandy Borton AMIRTE!

On a different note. Working through these early 90's VHS releases on The Vault I'm surprised how many matches have non-finishes. I would think if you are putting them out on video tape you would be ready to blow them off

WWF Home Video releases between PPV's from about 89 through 94 weren't really meant to showcase feud-enders or even really enhance ongoing storylines that much, and just primarily served to keep the rental market calendar moving throughout the year between the 4 or 5 PPV release videos. Home video releases like "Supertape", "Rampage" and the such were basically glorified comp-tapes of matches that had been in the can for months and upon release didn't really factor into the main weekly television or even got heavily promoted on TV beyond generic "in video stores now" promo.

The selling points were primarily (save for a few exceptions like Smack Em Whack Em with the Bret Hart World Title win) (1) competitive matches that you wouldn't see on TV during the era where WWF weekly TV was still pretty squash-heavy, (2) "attraction matches" like a feud that got blown off on PPV or house shows months ago being revisited one more time in a special stipulation like a steel cage, (3) tag team matches where main eventers that didn't interact often with each other would team up (Randy Savage and Bret Hart vs Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels being one example), and (4) battle royals during the era where that was still the only time you could see specific talents interact with each other. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, clintthecrippler said:

WWF Home Video releases between PPV's from about 89 through 94 weren't really meant to showcase feud-enders or even really enhance ongoing storylines that much, and just primarily served to keep the rental market calendar moving throughout the year between the 4 or 5 PPV release videos. Home video releases like "Supertape", "Rampage" and the such were basically glorified comp-tapes of matches that had been in the can for months and upon release didn't really factor into the main weekly television or even got heavily promoted on TV beyond generic "in video stores now" promo.

The selling points were primarily (save for a few exceptions like Smack Em Whack Em with the Bret Hart World Title win) (1) competitive matches that you wouldn't see on TV during the era where WWF weekly TV was still pretty squash-heavy, (2) "attraction matches" like a feud that got blown off on PPV or house shows months ago being revisited one more time in a special stipulation like a steel cage, (3) tag team matches where main eventers that didn't interact often with each other would team up (Randy Savage and Bret Hart vs Ric Flair and Shawn Michaels being one example), and (4) battle royals during the era where that was still the only time you could see specific talents interact with each other. 

Yeah I always saw the Coliseum Video releases as special attractions, nothing more. Of course there wasn't going to be a conclusive finish when the Nasty Boys and the Beverly Brothers teamed to face the Bushwhackers, Hacksaw Jim Duggan, and Sgt. Slaughter! How's the ref supposed to keep control of eight guys like that? Sheesh! Someone's bound to get disqualified.

[Cobra Commander]

Ed Leslie as the Disciple was his best look in WCW, and possibly his best WCW gimmick too.

And I just realized that Ed Leslie with a beard was his Hank Jr period (Hank Jr’s look exists to cover the scars from falling off a mountain)

[No Point Stance]

On 3/15/2025 at 5:59 PM, The Great ML said:

Hot take: This opinion may not be shared by some, but guys like Tito Santana and Greg Valentine had overstayed their welcome in the WWF by 1990. Valentine, probably earlier than that.

I largely agree, though I remember (erroneously?) the Greg Valentine-Ronnie Garvin submission match in early '90 being a lot of fun. Santana was generally better in the WWF but he always had very vanilla offense, and by that point was probably a little demoralized by his jobber-to-the-stars status.

[Matt D]

Tito had a lot of value as a name babyface with a connection to the crowd who could put over up and coming heels. They turned Valentine at the start of 91 to basically do the same. It would have obviously been better for Valentine’s career to jump to Crockett a couple of years earlier. 

[tbarrie]

6 hours ago, Matt D said:

Tito had a lot of value as a name babyface with a connection to the crowd who could put over up and coming heels. They turned Valentine at the start of 91 to basically do the same. It would have obviously been better for Valentine’s career to jump to Crockett a couple of years earlier. 

Was Tito still a name babyface with a connection to the crowd come 1990, though? Given how much WWF marketed to kids in that era, how many viewers at that time would have remembered back when Tito was relevant?

[Matt D]

12 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

Was Tito still a name babyface with a connection to the crowd come 1990, though? Given how much WWF marketed to kids in that era, how many viewers at that time would have remembered back when Tito was relevant?

From watching the footage, the answer seems to be yes.

[Technico Support]

33 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

Was Tito still a name babyface with a connection to the crowd come 1990, though? Given how much WWF marketed to kids in that era, how many viewers at that time would have remembered back when Tito was relevant?

I mean Tito had a hot run at the IC level (winning the belt twice, around 7 months each) just five years before that, and a tag title run in 87/88.  I get how you feel, though.  As a kid, 1985 to 1990 felt like a lifetime.

[Matt D]

When I started watching in 90, he was immediately one of my favorites. Him being one of the survivors in Survivor Series 90, who made it to the final match, might have went a long way towards that.

[Technico Support]

Damn, you guys have me wanting to abandon my WCW rewatch (thoughts on late 80s/early 90s WCW in the Netflix thread) and go back to 80s/90s WWF.

[tbarrie]

32 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I mean Tito had a hot run at the IC level (winning the belt twice, around 7 months each) just five years before that, and a tag title run in 87/88.  I get how you feel, though.  As a kid, 1985 to 1990 felt like a lifetime.

You know, I had completely forgotten Strike Force, despite being way into them as a kid. Yeah, you and Matt are likely right. His relevance wouldn't have completely faded from memory by 1990.

[Matt D]

18 minutes ago, tbarrie said:

You know, I had completely forgotten Strike Force, despite being way into them as a kid. Yeah, you and Matt are likely right. His relevance wouldn't have completely faded from memory by 1990.

There was a period where he was losing handicap matches vs Andre or whatever which was his lowest. But when he got stale, they did the El Matador thing to freshen him up too.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Tito didn't dip into, say, Tony Garea territory where he's teaming with a job guy on the wrong end of squash matches (aside from the one-time handicap match Matt mentioned against Andre teaming with Jimmy Powers, which was more to boost Andre than it was to show how far Tito had fallen). There were a lot of guys that crowds were completely apathetic towards in the late-1980s but Tito wasn't one of them.

[BobbyWhioux]

Tito had the other Wrestlemania Streak, unfortunately 

[odessasteps]

8 hours ago, Matt D said:

Tito had a lot of value as a name babyface with a connection to the crowd who could put over up and coming heels. They turned Valentine at the start of 91 to basically do the same. It would have obviously been better for Valentine’s career to jump to Crockett a couple of years earlier. 

Him going in 87 or 88 would have been interesting, either as a Horseman or Horseman foe, 

[AxB]

WWE likes to keep the odd babyface around long after their over-ness has expired. Like Hardcore Sparkplug Bob Holly had a really long run, and was only a pushed, over guy for very little of it.

[supremebve]

13 minutes ago, AxB said:

WWE likes to keep the odd babyface around long after their over-ness has expired. Like Hardcore Sparkplug Bob Holly had a really long run, and was only a pushed, over guy for very little of it.

Bob Holly isn't quite Mike Rotunda, but he's really high on the longest time in the spotlight with fewest meaningful moments list.

[Technico Support]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Him going in 87 or 88 would have been interesting, either as a Horseman or Horseman foe, 

He would have fit right in in the WCW 89/90 PPV undercards, which were full of name guys like Landel, Sheik, Irwin, Race, etc., who’d show up out of nowhere for one match or a handful of matches, then disappear.  The 1990 Bash, for example, is just egregious with the number of going nowhere cup of coffee guys on the show.

Edited March 17 by Technico Support

[J.H.]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Him going in 87 or 88 would have been interesting, either as a Horseman or Horseman foe, 

Lord, the number of Tito challenging for the TV Tirtle matches we could've got just breaks my heart!

James

[BobbyWhioux]

Never getting to properly thump Martel for walking out/turning on him at Wrestlemania 5 probably prevented Tito having a second life/doomed him to JTTS everafter.

Which would be forgivable if Martel really took off HBK style, but they never quite gave Martel all they could've, either.  Alas.

[caley]

10 hours ago, tbarrie said:

You know, I had completely forgotten Strike Force, despite being way into them as a kid. Yeah, you and Matt are likely right. His relevance wouldn't have completely faded from memory by 1990.

I remember when I was a kid seeing WM V and Martel walking out on Santana and it was SUCH a big deal. And as I was playing catch-up (I wasn't allowed to watch wrestling until I was about 10 so, this being pre-internet, the only way to catch up on what I had missed was to rent the videos the video stores had available and try to piece it all together), I thought Strike Force must have been this long-running, super-succesful team. But I was surprised to find years later that they teamed for less than two years, with Martel taking 6 months off during that less than two year run!

[BobbyWhioux]

to be fair, that is pretty long-running on the Vince scale...