September 2024 Wrestling Discussion

[The Natural]

2 hours ago, zendragon said:

Ospreay is kinda the natural evolution of stuff like HBK and Angle doing a minutes long ankle lock spot at WM

also

In William Regal's excellent autobiography, Welcome a Golden Mile, there's a glossary translating English words to Americans like advert to commercials. From me to you with love, Paul:

Honour.

Maths.

Favourites.

Autumn.

Series instead of Season.

Date/Month/Time.

Etc...

;).

[StuntmanCrowley]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:23 PM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

The answer fully begins with CM Punk and this was before he showed his whole ass in AEW.  Outside of the MJF feud, I never understood what people saw in him dating all the way back to Ring of Honor.  Always seemed a lesser talent with the biggest mouth.  Even now I think Drew needs a back brace from carrying the feud he's in.  I also think he's one of those people who is a living embodiment of the Raylan Givens quote "If you wake up in the morning and you meet one assht met an asshole.  If you meet assholes all day, you're probably the asshole"  I butchered that I think.

Outside of Punk, I'd have to say HBK, Edge and Seth Rollins.

One interesting one I say is Stone Cold during the attitude era.  As a younger fan, it just didn't click, but as I've gotten older I've grown to fully appreciate how big Stone Cold was and honestly, how great he was.

 

Also, right now......I absolutely don't get Joe Hendry....at all

Edited September 4 by StuntmanCrowley

[J.H.]

Dude I am so with you on Joe Hendry!

He just seems so generic to me. Nothing he does outside his ring entrance impresses me. How is this guy getting over?

James

[Log]

I don’t know why more wrestlers don’t realize this: The quickest route to getting over is simply having something the crowd can chant/clap/sing along with. Wrestling history is littered with perfectly average (or even below average) workers who got way over with that. Thats all Hendry is doing. 

[For Great Justice]

My entire “I don’t get ‘em” wing is simply enough littered with workrate guys who are wrestling for the sake of being workrate guys. That whole thing absolutely sucks.

I was going to mention this in the RIP thread but I’m pretty sure the whole reason younger me found DVDVR in the first place 25 years ago is because I was in a virtual shouting match with those claiming that Lance Storm was a better pro wrestler than Sid. Which is just blasphemy, and I felt like I was shouting into the internet void until I found this place. 

Thankfully this archetype has, mostly, gone away - even the Ospreay types bring a lot more to the table than the Storms. But there are still a few: Gresham is terrible, for instance. FTR has a pretty big whiff of this which is why I think they rub some (including me) the wrong way. 

Edited September 4 by For Great Justice

[JLowe]

1 hour ago, Log said:

I don’t know why more wrestlers don’t realize this: The quickest route to getting over is simply having something the crowd can chant/clap/sing along with. Wrestling history is littered with perfectly average (or even below average) workers who got way over with that. Thats all Hendry is doing. 

Kennedy

 

 

 

Kennedy

[JLowe]

1 hour ago, For Great Justice said:

My entire “I don’t get ‘em” wing is simply enough littered with workrate guys who are wrestling for the sake of being workrate guys. That whole thing absolutely sucks.

I was going to mention this in the RIP thread but I’m pretty sure the whole reason younger me found DVDVR in the first place 25 years ago is because I was in a virtual shouting match with those claiming that Lance Storm was a better pro wrestler than Sid. Which is just blasphemy, and I felt like I was shouting into the internet void until I found this place. 

Thankfully this archetype has, mostly, gone away - even the Ospreay types bring a lot more to the table than the Storms. But there are still a few: Gresham is terrible, for instance. FTR has a pretty big whiff of this which is why I think they rub some (including me) the wrong way. 

Mine is Speedball Bailey, he’s every indie cliche rolled into one.

[SirSmUgly]

2 hours ago, Log said:

I don’t know why more wrestlers don’t realize this: The quickest route to getting over is simply having something the crowd can chant/clap/sing along with. Wrestling history is littered with perfectly average (or even below average) workers who got way over with that. Thats all Hendry is doing. 

That, or bust out a dance. Dancing will get you over all day, every day. 

[dokdoyle]

https://www.f4wonline.com/news/aew/kevin-kelly-tate-twins-file-lawsuit-against-aew/

I want this to get thrown out of court so quickly, simply for using Cornette's sponsor lawyer.  

[SirSmUgly]

On 9/2/2024 at 7:23 PM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

Pretty much everyone who is hyped in modern American wrestling today. 

I'll never run out of old stuff to watch, but I miss being into a modern weekly wrestling show. There's nothing like the anticipation of waiting for the next episode of a hot wrestling show. 

[AxB]

On 9/3/2024 at 3:23 AM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

The Rock.

 

7 hours ago, The Natural said:

Funny you mention pumpkin items during the Fall we call Autumn...

When Josh Matthews still worked for WWE, he would turn up doing local tour hype on the UK versions of Raw and SD (and Superstars!). WWE was coming over twice a year in that era, once-post Mania and then again in October. And so for half of the year, we'd have Josh Matthews showing up on every show saying "What's popping UK, we're headed you're way this fah!"

(Because his Boston accent made him pronounce Fall as Fah)

And nobody would have any idea what he was talking about.

[The Comedian]

On 9/2/2024 at 10:23 PM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

I hated ECW-era RVD. I was never big on "gymnastics-as-pro-wrestling" guys to begin with (see also: Ruckus in CZW), and I found him kicking out of shit like top rope powerbombs to be ludicrous. I thought his Jerry Lynn series was overrated. Laughed my ass off at that one DVDVR 500 (I think it's the same one Lance Storm bitched about) where Shane McMahon was ranked 499 and RVD was 500.

[Death From Above]

God, the Rock's prime stuff has aged so fuckin' bad. His promos are total ass. Shit that 14 year old boys think is clever with so much misogany they can't even air half of it anymore because it will damage his standing as a B action guy now.

[BloodyChamp]

Back on topic. I posted that without reading the thread late yesterday. I choose The Rock and Cena for reasons already given and reasons I’ve gave before. Early Steve Austin, as Jarrett and Farooq so gracefully pointed out, is another one because all he did was say ass over and over. That was the cheapest pop of them all, overshadowed only by the others that involved blood and shit. SCSA grew on me though because he expanded on the whole thing and I realized that he deserves respect for coming up with a cheap pop that didn’t almost kill somebody like others did. 

[Technico Support]

20 hours ago, Just Adam Bay Bay said:

I’ll be the one to say it. Bryan Danielson during his AEW run. If he wasn’t into faking injuries every match I’d love him as much as you do, but that takes away my enjoyment of his work. I’ll admit he’s the greatest ROH Champion ever though.

I’d also throw in FTR as being my version of what the Bucks are to you and others. I can’t stand the Bret Hart tribute act and Dax in particular annoys the hell out of me. 

The one act I’m really loving in AEW at the moment that I’m glad to see getting love here is The Outrunners. When I attend Dynamite and Rampage in two weeks I hope to see Turbo Floyd and Truth Magnum (oh and Mariah May).

One day I’ll find the time and energy to articulate why I can’t stand FTR but in the meantime, preach on my brother.

6 hours ago, Log said:

I don’t know why more wrestlers don’t realize this: The quickest route to getting over is simply having something the crowd can chant/clap/sing along with. Wrestling history is littered with perfectly average (or even below average) workers who got way over with that. Thats all Hendry is doing. 

But at the same time, the bell does have to ring at some point.  That’s why Orange Cassidy still has a career while most other meme wrestlers are. struggling.

[For Great Justice]

57 minutes ago, Death From Above said:

God, the Rock's prime stuff has aged so fuckin' bad. His promos are total ass. Shit that 14 year old boys think is clever with so much misogany they can't even air half of it anymore because it will damage his standing as a B action guy now.

Oh my god prime Rock promos are theeeeeeee drizzling shits. I can’t watch it without cringing and turning it off.

But I guess context is warranted? The late 90’s “extreme” era of pop culture has not aged particularly well, to put it kindly. Howard Stern at the time or Season 1 South Park - same cringe reaction as the Rock stuff. 

[just drew]

Oooh, put me down for Seth Rollins, too. Prodigious athlete who’s never been interesting a day in his life. 
 

I’ve never understood why Cm punk is as popular as he is. More angst-driven notoriety that I just don’t relate to. 
 

I think Bret Hart is overrated, in that I think he’s great but not the GOAT. I’d put Eddy, Kurt Angle, Randy Savage, Curt Hennig and Owen ahead of him at minimum. Probably Danielson, too, but that depends on when you ask me.

[SirSmUgly]

42 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

One day I’ll find the time and energy to articulate why I can’t stand FTR but in the meantime, preach on my brother.

I enjoyed the Revival in NXT, and they'd occasionally bring back classic spots (like the Arn Anderson feint/DDT spot).

But at some point, that's all they became. A shitty cover band. A facsimile of a facsimile. Why watch them cosplay Tully and Arn when I live in the Information Age and actual Tully and Arn are a click away?

That's a lot of what makes up modern wrestling in America: Cirque du Soleil performed by a bunch of cosplayers.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

33 minutes ago, just drew said:

I think Bret Hart is overrated, in that I think he’s great but not the GOAT. I’d put Eddy, Kurt Angle, Randy Savage, Curt Hennig and Owen ahead of him at minimum. Probably Danielson, too, but that depends on when you ask me.

Owen was absolutely better than Bret. Owen was so much more versatile of a performer, I personally don't think it's even close.

[Hamhock]

5 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Owen was absolutely better than Bret. Owen was so much more versatile of a performer, I personally don't think it's even close.

Owen was more versatile of a performer/athlete, but Bret was a more believable worker - merge them together into one and they’d be the best of the best. My two cents on it, anyway.

In a related vein, I was curious and searched Cagematch, and apparently Owen worked Bobby Eaton at a 1991 WCW house show, so that’s now my holy grail match that no footage exists for, along with US Express vs. Hart Foundation. 

[zendragon]

Owed had the flashier move set with the suplexes and the top rope stuff, along with the facials. Bret had better psychology and match layouts. I'd take Bret's stuff over Owen's by a hair

[Robert S]

I am not sure if I buy the versatility argument. Both knew how to work face and heel, though did it very differently. Both had relatively fixed styles of how they worked their roles and changed it only slighty over the years (I mean when Owen wrestled as face in 97 against Vader, he apparently did basically the same match that he did with Makhan Singh a decade earlier). I guess Bret's heel and face did not differ that much as it did for Owen, but I am not sure if I would call that "versatility". I guess the best argument you could make here is that Owen had a more prolific run in Japan than Bret did.

Anyway: my answer to the posed question would have to be Kurt Angle and Homicide. I think everyone knows the arguments against Angle and regarding Homicide, I think he wrestled too long self-trained that by the time he got proper training it was too late to get rid of a lot of things that he did wrong. Anyway, a lot of this stuff just looked off execution wise, like you see things being done on backyard clips not as being done by a properly trained professional. He got how to do matches psychology wise and knew how to portray his character in the ring, but his execution was always a dealbreaker for me.

Edited September 4 by Robert S

[YouHaveUntil5]

Post-comeback Shawn Michaels is absolutely unbearable to me - all his big matches were forced epics instead of being organically good. It’s like he had a “what makes a good match” checklist and made sure to check every single thing off when putting his matches together. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

Owen's stooging and comedy were way better than Bret's, I don't think anyone could deny that. He could also be a stooge, he could be a comedy guy, he could work serious matches, he could put people over, he could be a top guy, he could be a mechanic, whatever you needed him to be. I don't say "versatile" in the sense of "he wrestled a different style comparing two matches ten years apart", I mean versatile in "how many different roles can you put him in on your show and have him still be effective". Owen could play tons and tons of different roles; he's a Swiss army knife. Bret could either be a serious babyface or a serious heel.

Also, Bret's something of a hypocrite for being a formula guy who calls people to task for relying on formulas. There's nothing wrong with being a formula guy, do what you've got to do to get through the night without getting hurt, but when most of the audience can call your comeback of manhattan drop / Russian legsweep / backbreaker / second rope elbow / Sharpshooter just as well as you can, you don't really have a leg to stand on to call out Ric Flair for always getting caught on the top rope.

[zendragon]

12 minutes ago, YouHaveUntil5 said:

Post-comeback Shawn Michaels is absolutely unbearable to me - all his big matches were forced epics instead of being organically good. It’s like he had a “what makes a good match” checklist and made sure to check every single thing off when putting his matches together. 

and I think this has bleed over into what a lot of peoples arguments with modern wrestling (see Omega, Kenny)