September 2024 Wrestling Discussion

[odessasteps]

He was definitely part of the problem in the style shift. 

[For Great Justice]

See I like post-comeback Shawn in the sense that wrestling is a 3 ring circus and overly emotive, playing for the back row, dramatic stadium show style has its place. Dug the comeback Triple H match, first Taker match, Flair match, etc. I also dig the Cena Raw match which is definitely this style, because it played to a crowd that elevated it.

I think it’s when he continuously tried to shoehorn that stuff into matches that definitely were not the right place and time that it went bad. Three stages of Hell being the most egregious example. 

Flair had his pattern but every once in a while you got him having these brutal wars with Valentine or Garvin or something. Post-comeback Shawn didn’t have that versatility in his bag.

[ka-to]

6 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

That, or bust out a dance. Dancing will get you over all day, every day. 

Especially if you are a fat man.

[odessasteps]

5 minutes ago, ka-to said:

Especially if you are a fat man.

Or a giant. Kurrgan danced in front of Vince and his days as a monster were over.

[NikoBaltimore]

This conversation is completely fascinating and I got some things to marinate on. I'm a die-hard Bret and Danielson guy yet there's some great points that make me go "You know what? Yeah, I can dig that." The strongest argument so far is about Owen compared to Bret. They sound like the absolutely perfect combination for a team yet they're so good it's no wonder they had more singles runs than tags. Actually don't hold me to that last part as I'm not as sure on Owen's tags compared to singles. But it feels that way. 

I love Omega though the Michaels comparison makes me wonder how many heads would explode if their prime versions faced each other. 

Oh, and I appreciate what Hendry is doing but he is the current epitome of "And then the bell rang." 

[Ace]

On 9/2/2024 at 7:23 PM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

I've known that Low Ki was a dick with a napoleon complex since 2002.

[Technico Support]

2 hours ago, SirSmUgly said:

I enjoyed the Revival in NXT, and they'd occasionally bring back classic spots (like the Arn Anderson feint/DDT spot).

But at some point, that's all they became. A shitty cover band. A facsimile of a facsimile. Why watch them cosplay Tully and Arn when I live in the Information Age and actual Tully and Arn are a click away?

That's a lot of what makes up modern wrestling in America: Cirque du Soleil performed by a bunch of cosplayers.

Take the Outrunners, subtract every molecule of joy and fun, and then add glurge promos.

[Ramo2653]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:23 PM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

FTR for sure. They just come off as try hards to me and fake. I'm up and down on Danielson, I think the WWE system helped him tame a lot of his bad stuff and helped him overall. Becky Lynch never did it for me. Does Britt Baker count now? 

[Sublime]

Add me to the FTR list, I liked them when they started as the Revival and were throwback wrestlers but then they got too cute with it and too into things and like someone else said just became a cover  band of old wrestlers. Thrown in the fact that they take themselves too seriously with the act and it’s a big eh from me.

[BloodyChamp]

I love postprime HBK just because he could freaking do all that stuff at his age. And the storyline they pulled off with the UT matches. Only he could do that. 

[Technico Support]

FTR came out with Orange for a six man wearing denim jackets, and Dax still had to put on Bret style mylar sunglasses instead of aviators.  FTR in a nutshell.

[The Natural]

Thank you to all replies to my question. Interesting seeing the names mentioned but particularly the ones that keep coming up like FTR and the Young Bucks.

[username]

The thing that always stuck out to me about FTR is that they don't really wrestle like an old school tag team but like a tag team with an old school gimmick if that makes any sense. While probably the wrong era to judge... well most on, I remember when both them and Gallows and Anderson were on Raw and while FTR was probably better Gallows and Anderson actually wrestled like a throwback team in how they handled cutoffs and setting up the finishing stretch. Meanwhile FTR would bust out numerous other old team's finishes for near falls which is... not that.

TBF there's nothing inherently wrong with that but for whatever reason it always irked me a bit.

[southofheavy]

I still dig FTR. It helps that I pretty much completely tune out anything about them outside of the ring. That said, they've got their NXT run, the Briscoes trilogy and that awesome match vs Juice and Jay White, and then a lot of filler that just didn't grab me at all. When they don't have game opponents or there isn't good focus on the tag division, they seem a little tuned out. 

I couldn't care less about their matches with the Bucks, but that's far more on the Bucks than FTR. 

[DreamBroken]

On 9/2/2024 at 9:23 PM, The Natural said:

What are some popular/heavily hyped wrestlers you were in the minority on? Low-Ki, Shawn Michaels, Will Ospreay and Marty Scurll for me. Scurll, long before what he'd done. You thought Marty had a big future as a prominent Bullet Club member, and would go to AEW like Cody, Kenny Omega, Hangman Adam Page and the Young Bucks who I don't like either. Instead, Marty Scurll became head booker of ROH then Speaking Out.

Sami Zayn for me. Mostly can't stand him outside of the admittedly great Johnny Knoxville feud.  I find bayley to be the most overhyped wrestler of the past decade and will just never get it.

[The Natural]

I was thinking about one of the most surreal things in my years of watching wrestling, Ric Flair of all people in 2006 WWE using barbed wire, falling in barbed wire and thumbtacks. It's something I never thought I'd see. Like Kenny Omega in a no rope barbed wire exploding death match vs. Jon Moxley at AEW Revolution 2021.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

16 hours ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Also, Bret's something of a hypocrite for being a formula guy who calls people to task for relying on formulas. There's nothing wrong with being a formula guy, do what you've got to do to get through the night without getting hurt, but when most of the audience can call your comeback of manhattan drop / Russian legsweep / backbreaker / second rope elbow / Sharpshooter just as well as you can, you don't really have a leg to stand on to call out Ric Flair for always getting caught on the top rope.

Toooo beeeee fairrrrrrr, I don't think anyone calls a winning NFL team formulaic for running a playbook, y'know?

Jokes aside, I'd CERTAINLY entertain an argument/comparison for the sternum/buckle bump - when J.R. was still doing commentary regularly, nothing would drive me more insane than when he would call that bump and mention Bret.

At least with the Flair bump, there's sort of a built in story for the old-schoolers, like "He won his first title in '81 with the cross body, and is going back to the well... Again..."

[The Natural]

6 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Toooo beeeee fairrrrrrr, I don't think anyone calls a winning NFL team formulaic for running a playbook, y'know?

Jokes aside, I'd CERTAINLY entertain an argument/comparison for the sternum/buckle bump - when J.R. was still doing commentary regularly, nothing would drive me more insane than when he would call that bump and mention Bret.

At least with the Flair bump, there's sort of a built in story for the old-schoolers, like "He won his first title in '81 with the cross body, and is going back to the well... Again..."

You've reminded me of Nigel McGuinness who in an ROH interview when ROH World Champion was asked why all he threw was lariats. Nigel said because they work and you wouldn't tell a pro golfer not to use a certain club.

Edited September 5 by The Natural

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

10 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Toooo beeeee fairrrrrrr, I don't think anyone calls a winning NFL team formulaic for running a playbook, y'know?

I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. I said there was something wrong with bashing people for doing the exact thing you're doing, which is what Bret was doing by bashing Flair for sticking to a formula when Bret himself stuck to a formula. Or a playbook. Or whatever. Point is, Bret's wrong.

Edited September 5 by Stefanie Sparkleface

[Zakk_Sabbath]

2 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Point is, Bret's wrong.

Does not compute

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

4 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Does not compute

Okay, Dax Harwood.

[madl]

At the moment, my “Just Don’t Get It” list is topped by anything Wyatt related (Bray, Wyatt Sycks, Alexis talking to the doll, etc.) and “Timeless” Toni Storm. Popularity of both just baffles me. Unlikely to spend another 60 seconds of my life watching either one.

Edited September 5 by madl

[Zakk_Sabbath]

13 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Okay, Dax Harwood.

Haha, had to!

8 minutes ago, madl said:

At the moment, my “Just Don’t Get It” list is topped by anything Wyatt related (Bray, Wyatt Sycks, Alexis talking to the doll, etc.) and “Timeless” Toni Storm. Popularity of both just baffles me. Unlikely to spend another 60 seconds of my life watching either one.

I haven't seen any of the new Wyatts-Without-Wyatt, but I gotta say, I find both your picks really interesting because I can't imagine anything much more tonally dissimilar to Timeless Toni

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

So here's a question I'm curious about, based on the "don't get it" topic... how do you folks watch wrestling? Do you watch matches in and of themselves, do you watch them within the context of the shows in which they occurred, do you watch live, do you watch after the fact (and if you do, how soon after it happened do you watch)?

For me, I always try to watch whole shows because I find I appreciate things better within the context in which they took place. I liken it to watching the entirety of a movie, not just a scene. A match might be slower paced than expected because it immediately followed a sprint, so the people involved decided to slow things down a bit as a result. There might also be moves that you'd expect to be used that aren't because they were used elsewhere (for example, you might see a superplex not be used in the fourth match when it's a signature of the participants because it's a big spot in the main event). That's always why I find it hard to watch matches by themselves outside of their context.

I rarely if ever watch live, but that's a product of what I watch (mostly joshi and DDT, which is usually running when I'm asleep). Even if I am watching wrestling in North America, it's rarely appointment viewing for me, but I'll try to watch within a week of airing.

How about you?

[SirSmUgly]

13 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I didn't say there was anything wrong with that. I said there was something wrong with bashing people for doing the exact thing you're doing, which is what Bret was doing by bashing Flair for sticking to a formula when Bret himself stuck to a formula. Or a playbook. Or whatever. Point is, Bret's wrong.

I think this is a rigid definition of "routine" compared to the point Bret was making. Bret did moves and spots across matches, but those moves were worked in without seeming illogical, which I think is the point Bret makes.

On the other hand, (for example) Flair still working in his heel stooge spots as a babyface against heel Sting is illogical. It's an immersion breaker.

Bret going to the side Russian as a setup makes sense from a pro sports logic. You run your best plays in crunch time. To make a pro sports analogy since Bret's philosophy is to embody realism as much as possible within the confines of a worked sport, that's like calling Steph Curry looking for a three while down two late in the fourth "routine" rather than "logical."

Flair going up top when he hit a top-rope move once every couple years at most is illogical. He's supposed to be one of the finest wrestlers of all time. That's a defining aspect of his gimmick. Consistently going for a low-percentage move every match works against that gimmick. It explains why as a kid, I far more easily and quickly bought into Bret's matches than Flair's: Flair stuck moves and spots in as a routine without thinking about how they fit the logic of the match.

Flair's philosophy about why he did the same spots no matter whether he was face or heel makes sense from a certain standpoint, but it reinforces that he has certain spots that he is doing specifically as part of a routine to give the crowd the spots that he thinks they expect to see, first and foremost. The psychology of the thing is entirely different than Bret taking a chest bump every other match or whatever.

I'm not saying Flair is objectively wrong in his approach (obviously he's not, considering his level of stardom and success). However, I think Bret makes it fairly clear in his book/interviews that he defines "routine" as "contriving spots into a match because you want to pop a crowd whether or not that spot fits the logic of the match," not the broader definition you're using.