May 2024 Wrestling Talk

[EVA]

Consider how long Bill DeMott got away with running developmental like a psycho. I doubt anyone in power at WWE looked negatively at Gulak roughing up the trainees a little.

[steve]

I don't understand why half the locker room wasn't waiting at gorilla for him after that Chen spot.

[Elsalvajeloco]

27 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

People also forget the following things about the Yoshiko situation:
- Act Yasukawa threw shoot punches first, and there were multiple punches thrown before Yoshiko responded
- They were actually broken up before Kyohei Wada decided to let the match continue, even though Act's face was clearly busted up
- When they tried to get back to a normal match, Act again started throwing shoot punches first and Yoshiko retaliated
- Kyohei Wada continued to do nothing to stop it until Kyoko Kimura finally threw in the towel for Act, who screamed that she wanted to keep going and had to be physically dragged away from the ring

Yoshiko beating Act so severely was obviously wrong, but I don't know what Yoshiko was supposed to do there aside from take more punches to the face and not defend herself, even if those punches weren't doing a thing to her.

People also keep claiming that Act has been retired forever because of this, but Act's still wrestling today (albeit for Actwresgirlz).

Like yeah. Yoshiko should've tried to do more to control the situation. She was clearly much more skilled at throwing legitimate punches. But at the same time, there were multiple chances for others to step in and try to deescalate the situation - or also, get Act to stop trying to throw legitimate punches - and people didn't do anything.

A true "everyone sucks here" case if there ever was one.

There is always the leave the ring option, which has been explored more than once in wrestling. If someone doesn't want to cooperate, that option is always on the table. 

I am not saying you necessarily need to get blackballed from wrestling, but after that, you probably cannot come back.

Moreover, there is clearly an underlying issue that caused that as that is not something you have seen before or since. Maybe you can put the Jackie Sato/Shinobu Kandori incident up there since you got to be pretty ballsy to shoot on your boss (a goddamn legend at that) and intentionally try to injure them on top of that. That was also a case of someone (Kandori) who legit knew what they were doing in terms of adequately defending themselves and also going way too far. However, as we saw years later when the original JWP split, that was clearly something politically motivating that and not just a case of a regular pro wrestling receipt.

Here with Gulak, I am not sure what to make of all of this just happening under the noses of folks who been in the business longer than he has been alive. I cannot buy that stretch.

[odessasteps]

Quote

There is always the leave the ring option, which has been explored more than once in wrestling. If someone doesn't want to cooperate, that option is always on the table.

It worked for Lex. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

Just now, odessasteps said:

It worked for Lex. 

That was the primary example I was thinking of. 

There are other examples, but that's always going to be THE example.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

30 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

There is always the leave the ring option, which has been explored more than once in wrestling. If someone doesn't want to cooperate, that option is always on the table. 

I am not saying you necessarily need to get blackballed from wrestling, but after that, you probably cannot come back.

Moreover, there is clearly an underlying issue that caused that as that is not something you have seen before or since. Maybe you can put the Jackie Sato/Shinobu Kandori incident up there since you got to be pretty ballsy to shoot on your boss (a goddamn legend at that) and intentionally try to injure them on top of that. That was also a case of someone (Kandori) who legit knew what they were doing in terms of adequately defending themselves and also going way too far. However, as we saw years later when the original JWP split, that was clearly something politically motivating that and not just a case of a regular pro wrestling receipt.

Here with Gulak, I am not sure what to make of all of this just happening under the noses of folks who been in the business longer than he has been alive. I cannot buy that stretch.

I actually have a theory as to why walking out of the ring didn't happen, and it's completely a "dumb wrestler brain" situation (meaning I think this is absolutely nonsensical logic, but I fully believe a wrestler would think it makes a ton of sense)... it was a title match, titles switch in Stardom on a countout, so walking out means Act becomes the champ.

See? Dumb.

The other great option would have been to just lay on Act until either she settled down and started cooperating or she gave up, but that goofball Kyohei Wada probably would've stood them back up and started the punches all over again.

Either way, everyone sucked in this situation (except for Kyoko Kimura, who threw in the towel, and Ruby Soho, who at least tried to get Act calmed down).

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I actually have a theory as to why walking out of the ring didn't happen, and it's completely a "dumb wrestler brain" situation (meaning I think this is absolutely nonsensical logic, but I fully believe a wrestler would think it makes a ton of sense)... it was a title match, titles switch in Stardom on a countout, so walking out means Act becomes the champ.

See? Dumb.

The other great option would have been to just lay on Act until either she settled down and started cooperating or she gave up, but that goofball Kyohei Wada probably would've stood them back up and started the punches all over again.

Either way, everyone sucked in this situation (except for Kyoko Kimura, who threw in the towel, and Ruby Soho, who at least tried to get Act calmed down).

And that's why Mike Rotundo deserves flowers for how he handled the one guy who tried to probably legit kill him (and post match, followed him out of the ring). He could have legit fucked that guy up, but he was just sound of mind enough to where he can clearly control that situation and just tie him up enough to get it over and done. There was no Perry Saturn overreaction where it escalates to "let me try to kill you now." And Rotundo could have done that. However, he didn't. More impressively, that was a time when folks would clearly go overboard with enhancement talent and no one would feel bad.

IMO, in that situation (Yoshiko/Act), there was clearly something going on behind the scenes that got it to a boil cause 99% of scuffles in pro wrestling are just that: scuffles. They go at it for a minute, but ultimately no one gets hurt or seriously hurt. Or something like an eight woman tag between AJW and LLPW in 1999 (from the same show as the Zap T and Eagle Sawai bloodbath) where everyone just no sells, stands there looking pissed, and don't really cooperate and it's just an absolute mess full of awkward moments and botches (namely Toyota trying to JOCS Kuzama three straight times and failing, and Toyota/whatever still active Jumping Bomb Angel having a super tense staredown after a piledriver no sell). There is a lot of stuff between THAT and let me try to break your face. There is unprofessional and then being unprofessional and heinous. I get self-defense (and I think most people here understand self defense), but I think we also get degrees of cause and effect.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

And that's why Mike Rotundo deserves flowers for how he handled the one guy who tried to probably legit kill him (and post match, followed him out of the ring). He could have legit fucked that guy up, but he was just sound of mind enough to where he can clearly control that situation and just tie him up enough to get it over and done. There was no Perry Saturn overreaction where it escalates to "let me try to kill you now." And Rotundo could have done that. However, he didn't. More impressively, that was a time when folks would clearly go overboard with enhancement talent and no one would feel bad.

IMO, in that situation (Yoshiko/Act), there was clearly something going on behind the scenes that got it to a boil cause 99% of scuffles in pro wrestling are just that: scuffles. They go at it for a minute, but ultimately no one gets hurt or seriously hurt. Or something like an eight woman tag between AJW and LLPW in 1999 (from the same show as the Zap T and Eagle Sawai bloodbath) where everyone just no sells, stands there looking pissed, and don't really cooperate and it's just an absolute mess full of awkward moments and botches (namely Toyota trying to JOCS Kuzama three straight times and failing, and Toyota/whatever still active Jumping Bomb Angel having a super tense staredown after a piledriver no sell). There is a lot of stuff between THAT and let me try to break your face. There is unprofessional and then being unprofessional and heinous. I get self-defense (and I think most people here understand self defense), but I think we also get degrees of cause and effect.

You're right, there had to have been something else happening, because there's multiple moments where Kyohei Wada (or Rossy Ogawa, who is sitting at ringside) could be the adults in the room and go "you know, this has really gone far enough", and they let it continue.

That to me is why I'm alarmed that Yoshiko is always the one blamed for the situation, when there were clearly so many other people who should shoulder their share of blame for what happened (including Act, although considering her face got essentially exploded I can understand why people don't blame her). Similar to your point about how Drew Gulak has had multiple incidents happen and there had to have been a failing at some point for how it was allowed to continue for so long, really. Act was in no condition to continue after maybe 45 seconds. Kyohei Wada let the thing continue for another seven minutes. It was shameful all around.

The thing that fascinates me is that I took a look at Yoshiko's Cagematch profile just now, and there are still people as recently as a month ago calling for her to be banned from wrestling, citing that she ended Act's career. Yoshiko hasn't wrestled since 2022 and probably won't ever wrestle again; Act literally wrestled today.

[Eivion]

2 hours ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Spoiler

People also forget the following things about the Yoshiko situation:
- Act Yasukawa threw shoot punches first, and there were multiple punches thrown before Yoshiko responded
- They were actually broken up before Kyohei Wada decided to let the match continue, even though Act's face was clearly busted up
- When they tried to get back to a normal match, Act again started throwing shoot punches first and Yoshiko retaliated
- Kyohei Wada continued to do nothing to stop it until Kyoko Kimura finally threw in the towel for Act, who screamed that she wanted to keep going and had to be physically dragged away from the ring

Yoshiko beating Act so severely was obviously wrong, but I don't know what Yoshiko was supposed to do there aside from take more punches to the face and not defend herself, even if those punches weren't doing a thing to her.

People also keep claiming that Act has been retired forever because of this, but Act's still wrestling today (albeit for Actwresgirlz).

Like yeah. Yoshiko should've tried to do more to control the situation. She was clearly much more skilled at throwing legitimate punches. But at the same time, there were multiple chances for others to step in and try to deescalate the situation - or also, get Act to stop trying to throw legitimate punches - and people didn't do anything.

A true "everyone sucks here" case if there ever was one.

 

I don't recall Act throwing shoot punches at all. Mostly recall both throwing normal punches until Yoshiko clearly got serious. Its also hard to defend Yoshiko considering she was blatantly smiling after having beaten and bloodied Act. Yoshiko was not simply defending herself and going too far. 

35 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

That to me is why I'm alarmed that Yoshiko is always the one blamed for the situation, when there were clearly so many other people who should shoulder their share of blame for what happened (including Act, although considering her face got essentially exploded I can understand why people don't blame her). Similar to your point about how Drew Gulak has had multiple incidents happen and there had to have been a failing at some point for how it was allowed to continue for so long, really. Act was in no condition to continue after maybe 45 seconds. Kyohei Wada let the thing continue for another seven minutes. It was shameful all around.

And people did blame Wada for how poorly he handled the entire situation as ref back then. They also blamed Rossy and Nanae. Fuka took blame as well management were aware of the issues between Act & Yoshiko before then. People give Yoshiko the majority of shit still years later because its also well known Yoshiko and Nanae had been bullying roster members behind the scenes, including Act, due to a very pissed Alpha Female revealing this when she heard about the incident.

35 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

The thing that fascinates me is that I took a look at Yoshiko's Cagematch profile just now, and there are still people as recently as a month ago calling for her to be banned from wrestling, citing that she ended Act's career. Yoshiko hasn't wrestled since 2022 and probably won't ever wrestle again; Act literally wrestled today.

The initial incident caused Act to retire early as it damaged her eye. She returned 6-7 years later, but that is still a lifetime of opportunity and chance in wrestling that was taken from her. She also isn't really wrestling the way she originally intended seeing that she has been focused on the side of AWG that isn't considered real wrestling by AWG and its roster themselves.  Yoshiko wrestled for years after the incident having only disappeared seemingly because of an injury or personal issue.

 

Edited May 5 by Eivion

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

8 minutes ago, Eivion said:

I don't recall Act throwing shoot punches at all.

Go back and rewatch. She's throwing live rounds right away, then after they're broken up she does so again. The problem is, Act can't throw a decent punch whatsoever, and Yoshiko can. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, and this was a stupid prize for certain.

Also, I don't care what AWG calls themselves, it's wrestling.

[Eivion]

22 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

Go back and rewatch. She's throwing live rounds right away, then after they're broken up she does so again. The problem is, Act can't throw a decent punch whatsoever, and Yoshiko can. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes, and this was a stupid prize for certain.

Also, I don't care what AWG calls themselves, it's wrestling.

I just rewatched the first minute or so, and you are off the mark like I recall. It was clearly supposed to be a strike exchanging only for Yoshiko to start throwing live rounds after one punch or elbow (hard to tell from the angle). Act gets a few shots in during the first attack, but Yoshiko pretty much started off trying to actively hurt Act from the getgo. She even went as far as to take Act down so she had no way to defend herself from Yoshiko's punches. Even the restart is Yoshiko clearly gearing up for more with Act clearly just trying to defend herself. 

I liked both women a good bit (admittedly Yoshiko more), but Yoshiko was always the blatant aggressor in that situation, and I'm not sure why people try to downplay that. She may no be an asshole all the time, but she very much was there. I think its fine to acknowledge that though I do think the idea some people have that Yoshiko should be blackballed years after the fact is weird. The reality is that was nearly a decade ago, and both women have long moved on. Fans should as well instead of bringing it back up every few months like I have seen on reddit.

Edited May 5 by Eivion

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

25 minutes ago, Eivion said:

like I have seen on reddit.

I can think of no finer way to bring this talk to a close, then, than to point out that Reddit is a silly place.

[madl]

Didn’t expect to stumble across this while looking at photos from the Kentucky Derby.  I hope they’re in character.  If not,….

 

[Brandon Bones]

That picture hurts my fucking eyes.

[Nice Guy Eddie]

How are Seth and Becky not the biggest heels dressed like that? Everything about their appearance screams ASSHOLE.

[sabremike]

4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Re: the WrestlePurists tweet

This seems very much like left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. That or someone is embellishing a little bit since he is already on his way out.

Cause the waistband thing is already enough to get you out of the paint. The other allegations are extremely serious as well. So was he not punished each incident? He was just allowed to get back in there as if nothing happened? A reprimand is one thing. Each someone is doing it repeatedly, then there has to be a system in place. People are bringing up Sexy Star and Yoshiko, but AFAIK, those two only did it once with the latter being extremely egregious. If WWE is so on the ball and has all their ducks in a row, then why was this allowed to just happen? That is on top of the Rousey story, which is its own fireable offense. So with that in mind, how do we end up with, "well, his contract wasn't renewed." Let me get this right. A person under your employ was doing all that (allegedly), BUT you were waiting for his contract to run out? What in the entire fuck? 

This other stuff is being put out there to distract from the other story involving Drew that's the real reason he got sent packing.

Also want to say the smarmy pricks doing the "he wasn't released, his contract expired and that's not the same thing" thing thinking they are so smart and clever are room temperature IQ clowns.

[Technico Support]

10 minutes ago, sabremike said:

This other stuff is being put out there to distract from the other story involving Drew that's the real reason he got sent packing.

Also want to say the smarmy pricks doing the "he wasn't released, his contract expired and that's not the same thing" thing thinking they are so smart and clever are room temperature IQ clowns.

And of course HHH snidely quipping to the person asking about Gulak, who mentioned Sapp and another site as sources, “you need to find better sources” or something like that.  Like the post Vince comments, it seems like every damn time this goof speaks on something official, he just steps on his dick, either by being tone deaf or by being a petty bitch.  At what point does TKO realize he’s just a meathead in a suit?

Edited May 6 by Technico Support

[RazorbladeKiss87]

32 minutes ago, madl said:

Didn’t expect to stumble across this while looking at photos from the Kentucky Derby.  I hope they’re in character.  If not,….

 

Outside of the obviously vile humans in the business, Seth Rollins is my least favorite wrestler to ever exist. Pictures like this just solidify that opinion. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Technico Support said:

And of course HHH snidely quipping to the person asking about Gulak, who mentioned Sapp and another site as sources, “you need to find better sources” or something like that.  Like the post Vince comments, it seems like every damn time this goof speaks on something official, he just steps on his dick, either by being tone deaf or by being a petty bitch.  At what point does TKO realize he’s just a meathead in a suit?

Not to bring this back, but I love the indirect Ospreay shot coming from the entity that went all in on Gable Steveson.

But yeah, Paul Levesque is Paul Levesque and this isn't what he's initially trained in. Could someone become better suited at this especially over time? Sure, but one of people's first defense mechanisms is "well, he's just working the marks" like it's 1997 and everyone is still insulated in the wrestling bubble. As said as much weeks ago when this was a hot button issue, the sooner he comes out of that, the better he will be at his job. If he doesn't, that is what we have to look forward to. 

Overall, maybe it's a Dana White (another person who wasn't someone who came from a corporate environment) thing where he's only there to act as a middle man and to make folks feel like that the corporate overlords haven't fully taken over the field. The only difference is Dana has been with the UFC long enough where his vision has been fully realized twice over, and Mick Maynard and Sean Shelby can do their jobs without him. Do people at TKO feel like Paul is just so integral that he cannot be replaced with someone just as knowledgeable and with similar expertise? 

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I can think of no finer way to bring this talk to a close, then, than to point out that Reddit is a silly place.

[John E. Dynamite]

Didn't AJPW's Brute Issei retire because Minoru Suzuki took a liking to bullying him and intentionally seperated his shoulder in a match?

 

[odessasteps]

 

[odessasteps]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not to bring this back, but I love the indirect Ospreay shot coming from the entity that went all in on Gable Steveson.

But yeah, Paul Levesque is Paul Levesque and this isn't what he's initially trained in. Could someone become better suited at this especially over time? Sure, but one of people's first defense mechanisms is "well, he's just working the marks" like it's 1997 and everyone is still insulated in the wrestling bubble. As said as much weeks ago when this was a hot button issue, the sooner he comes out of that, the better he will be at his job. If he doesn't, that is what we have to look forward to. 

Overall, maybe it's a Dana White (another person who wasn't someone who came from a corporate environment) thing where he's only there to act as a middle man and to make folks feel like that the corporate overlords haven't fully taken over the field. The only difference is Dana has been with the UFC long enough where his vision has been fully realized twice over, and Mick Maynard and Sean Shelby can do their jobs without him. Do people at TKO feel like Paul is just so integral that he cannot be replaced with someone just as knowledgeable and with similar expertise? 

Both companies need to review the whole idea of “post game press conferences” as they seem to do more harm than good for their promotions. 

[username]

6 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

So wait...they weren't aware but (1) one or more people kept a running tally of his offenses and (2) they weren't paying close attention to his matches when we all know folks are in the Gorilla position attentively watching matches.

 

I will simply copy what Meltzer wrote (emphasis mine):

 

- Regarding the Drew Gulak situation after yesterday's press conference with Paul Levesque, technically his contract is expiring and not being renewed as opposed to firing but that's largely word semantics. The Ronda Rousey story is the reason he stopped being used and wasn't going to be brought back, but with him gone, we're told the stories surfacing are accurate as less experienced talent had not been comfortable talking about a veteran on the roster.

 

So it seems less that someone was keeping a tally but that after the Rousey thing came out a lot of younger wrestlers who weren't comfortable talking about him for fear of not being believed/possible repercussions were willing to talk about it now that he was being looked into. Based on all I know of how shit like this usually goes (I'm not talking just wrestling but... well everywhere more or less) I find that to be a very believable course of events.

[Curt McGirt]

Somebody needs to send Dustin a link to some Mid-Atlantic episodes on Youtube or something. Maybe the Houston footage.