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Can we be done with quarter hours and ratings talk, for fuck's fucking sake? This is not 1997. This shit does not matter. Using an outdated value system to criticize something is really really stupid.

Years from now, remember this, when the newly All Elite Izzy takes her revenge like Nakia from Kill Bill Vol 1 will take on the Black Mamba some day. Her being the one to send Mercedes back to WWE or possibly even into retirement... that's what pro wrestling is all about.

People are trying to quarantine the ratings talk again. The feeling has been restored.

I haven't watched WWE in over 8 years, so I missed most of Mercedes' heyday and am pretty much unfamiliar with her work. Coming in cold, I'll say she has incredible charisma. But she also comes off very inauthentic, and that's at the feet of her being "WWE born and bred." Walk out of the entrance, be sure to hit that pose we came up with for you, walk to the ring in your specific character fashion, and do the pose again, etc. It's just so manufactured and fake. And that dance. Jesus Christ. That fucking dance. After her very good promo, she danced. And danced. Same move. Over and over. It was like she didn't know what else to do. Same thing at the end of the show. Fuck. Jaw at the fans, climb the ropes and celebrate, go slap some hands. Anything. But she just kept spamming that same move over and over. I was overwhelmed with secondhand embarrassment. As much as WWE feels like they need to retrain bad habits out of experienced performers, I think that should go both ways. WWE Style presentation creates products, not people, and it's glaring how disingenuous it looks when they show up in AEW and do that same played out stuff. Mercedes' presentation felt like a TGI Friday's waiter got a new job at a decent restaurant and showed up on day 1 with 41 pieces of flair. Or the guy who plays Goofy at Disneyland got an office gig and showed up in his Goofy suit. Just so out of place and weird.

i just want to pop in here and point out that the 80s Transformers and GI Joe cartoons are legitimately good. they're not the fucking Sopranos, or Game of Thrones, or what have you, but for 80s kids TV, animated or not, they are pillars of quality. Their contemporaries: He-Man, Thundercats, MASK, GoBots, et. all., are all objectively of lower quality, but Transformers and GI Joe i found hold up reasonably well for what they are. source: i love cartoons (you may remember my 'Help me find all the cartoons' thread from a few years ago) and finished rewatching those two series a year or two back.

It would have been better ratings in the Tokyo Dome

I honestly don't think it's a stretch to say Mercedes/Sasha is the most important wrestler this century. The 4HW all deserve credit, as do many others before them, but never forget crowds were always chanting "We Want Sasha." in 2014, people were still talking about Trish/Lita main eventing Raw 10 years prior as the high watermark of American women's wrestling, and the thought of getting anything better was not seriously considered. After Sasha's 2015 essentially wrapped up at Takeover Respect, it was 6 months before the word "diva" was purged from WWE lexicon, a year before women main evented a PPV, just over 2 years to main eventing a Rumble, and 3.5 years to main eventing Mania. Imagine telling somebody in 2012 that women will main event a freaking WM before the end of the decade. Looking back nearly 10 years now, it's easy to take for granted, but the opportunities that are available now for women in wrestling both financially and artistically in the US were unfathomable 12 years ago and it was Sasha's run of matches that pushed that boulder over the hill. I think about people like Julia, Skye, Billie, etc who were literal kids in 2015 and wonder if they would've even pursued wrestling as a career (let alone to what success) if the landscape for women's wrestling was still what it was 2013.

Sorry if this should go in another forum. But Mercedes making her AEW debut has inspired me to rewatch the Sasha/Bayley match from NXT Takeover in Brooklyn. This is their first big PPV match. I've watched the Iron Woman match roughly 200000 times since that's my favorite type of match stipulation. First of all -- this match took place in 2015. WTF? I can't believe it was that long ago. I'm also watching this without the context of watching it in the middle of the serial drama of weekly NXT. The Four Horsewomen had been tearing down the house around NXT. The best NXT Women's match before this from my memory was Sasha vs. Becky Lynch from the Takeover before this, but they had up-and-down so many good matches. Steph is kicking off the match. Just a few weeks earlier, Steph announced the call-ups of Charlotte and Becky to side with Paige, along with the call-up of Sasha to join up with Naomi and Tamina to form Team BAD (they're there live for the match) so they could battle with the Bella Twins and I want to say Alicia Fox. It's wild, because in the intro, Steph is calling this "The Divas Revolution." They haven't done away with Divas as the branding yet. Ugh. Steph is also calling this the first of two main events of the night (some men's match is after this, I don't remember or even care.) The intro package for this is awesome. Bayley in 2015 might have been the best babyface of the century. It's either here or Sami or Yes Movement Daniel Bryan. There's this really funny moment in the video when they are playing Bayley's theme song with the wacky arms, and there's a distorted version of the song as the wacky arms are deflated. I completely forgot Bayley had to get past Charlotte and Becky before she could get to Sasha. Now I want to watch those matches. Bayley comes out to her wacky arms and the reaction is so huge. The pop for Sasha's theme is even bigger. She comes rolling out all blinged out in an Escalade, surrounded by a security team. Two of the guards hold the ropes for her. She summons the other two who lift her onto the apron. I remembered the Escalade but forgot about the security force. Sasha is also just the absolute best foil for the pure heartedness that is the version of Bayley. Sasha starts by mocking Bayley's playful outfit (complete with polka dots in tribute to Dusty.) It immediately starts with a cheapshot attempt from Sasha, but Bayley brawls back to get control. The crowd is DEAFENING with dueling chants. They start off hot -- Bayley gets Sasha in a tree of woe. She runs to the corner. I think she at the time did a sliding dropkick from this position. Sasha did a sit up while in the tree of woe to maybe counter that, only for Bayley do do a really awesome springboard elbow. There are so many good counters -- Bayley knows to protect herself against Sasha's knee smash in the corner, Sasha does some cheapshots to get Bayley back to the floor. Sasha does so many awesome taunts -- pretending to do the wacky arms before slapping Bayley across the face. There's a good control segment with Sasha working Bayley's neck, and then getting Bayley in a straigthjacket. Sasha does some trash talking but, most importantly, it's a great cue for the crowd to start to rally. Sasha goes for the double knees again, and there's a rad counter/counter headscissors between both of them. Sasha splays Bayley across the top rope, and the crowd murmurs because of the added danger... and then Sasha does the knees that way. Such an awesome moment for the match -- Sasha and Bayley have to heighten everything to go forward. Bayley's advantage comes after Sasha decides to verbally berate Bayley. But the berating really reveals Sasha's character -- "You think you're better than me because all of these people love you?" That was the magic of Sasha's character. She started off as an insecure "happy to be here" type like Bayley but then found her leggings by adapting The Boss presona... but there was always the insecurity and jealousy underneath. But Sasha regains control and gets Bayley to the floor. Sasha on the floor targets Bayley's hurt and bandaged wrist, taking off the protectve guard. There's a great spot where Sasha slams Bayley's hand on the ring steps, and then stomps in on the floor, and then wedges Bayley's hand between the ring steps and stomps. The crowd reacts like they've just seen an execution -- what a great testament to their character work and Bayley's selling. Then things GO UP another notch -- the ref is kneeling between the middle and top rope to check on Bayley, but then Sasha hurdles the ref with a sention to the floor! I don't think Sasha ever used that move before this match, and especially not with the ref decoy. Bayley tosses Sasha to the floor and the crowd is now fully behind Bayley. Sasha just being so vicious and mean really tilts a naturally heel leaning Brooklyn crowd firmly to Bayley's camp. Bayley hits an awesome Exploder Suplex kind of thing into the ropes. After some counters, Sasha gets on The Banks Statement (but without the backstabber.) Bayley crawls to the ropes, but Sasha stomps away with pure viciousness on the hurt hand. But then Bayley ends up reversing into the Banks Statement, and Sasha is screaming like it's pure death. Sasha is SO good at using her body to express pain and to reach the ropes. There's an awesome near fall when Bayley hoists Sasha onto her feet into a quick Belly-to-Bayley. The crowd is ELECTRIC with a deserved This Is Awesome chant. Bayley and Sasha end up on the top rope. Bayley goes for a hurucanrana from the top but Sasha avoids it. Bayley nearly ends her career as she spikes herself on the way down. It looks like she rung her bell real bad -- but don't fear, Sasha's going to hit a meteora off the top anyways for an epic near fall and a great "NOOOOOOOOO!!!!" reaction from Sasha. They're on the top rope again, and Bayley gets the advantage with some nasty elbows. THen WTF POISON RANA FROM THE TOP FROM BAYLEY!!! She pulls the heaband, and now has the Belly-to-Bayley and wins! There's the post-match celebration, with Charlotte and Becky joining in. Sasha comes in, too. They all flash the Four Horsewomen sign. It's maybe a bit too kayfabe breaking... but, screw it, they absolutely earned it. Nobody could have predicted what the hell The Horsewomen were going to do in NXT. Dear god was this match amazing. And while I forget the context of it happening then, we do have the context of what happened over the next decade after this match. Women's matches have headlined WrestleManias. Women closing out Raw or Smackdown doesn't even make me bat an eye anymore. This match felt special at the time and it was somehow more special that we could imagine -- it literally changed wrestling history, and for the better. Now I hope Mercedes gets to change it even more in AEW.

Hooting, hollering, and things of that nature.

I always loved the 5-parters where the Joes and Cobra had to travel the world trying to beat each other to the parts for whatever McGuffin they were building (Werther Dominator, etc.). Also the one where the Joes were scrambling because they were getting phone calls telling them that a guy called THE VIPER was coming, only for it to turn out to be the window cleaner, who had an accent (here to "vipe your vindows").

There was a time where Sasha had Becky, Bayley, Charlotte, Ronda, Nia, Bianca and others' best matches... she was THE common denominator. Since then they've all had so many great matches that it's hard to rank them in any particular order. I'm excited to see her work all of the AEW women.

I know Rock is gonna be the shits in the ring because he has one speed and with all the muscle he’s put on 50+ he’s gonna hurt himself but everything leading up to that match is gonna be absolutely insane. There are promos and then there’s The Rock.

I just watched the Iron Woman. It’s a perfect wrestling match. I don’t know what else can be said about it. Ironman matches are my favorite gimmick. One of the pet peeves with an Ironman is when and how a first fall comes. An Ironman always comes at the end of a feud, and by that time you’ve seen the participants have these long matches and then the first fall comes like six minutes into it. The Brooklyn classic went just about 20 minutes. The first fall in this one comes with nine minutes gone, but these two had so many NXT TV matches that went about that length, so it does not feel egregious. Another thing with Ironman matches is that the matches can get driven by when the falls come. But this match is driven by the characters and their motivations first — just like any good wrestling match or, frankly, any narrative in ant art form. This is an absolute masterpiece in character work in any kind of performance art. It is really transcendent. The big pivot of the story takes place before the first fall. Ahead of that, it’s a whole “these two women respect each other” vibe. Bayley goes to respectfully lift Sasha up out of the corner, and Sasha does this awesome “I really appreciate this and respect you too” face before snatching Bayley’s wig and throwing her onto the mat. That just starts Sasha putting on an all-time great hammy villainess performances. I say hammy as a compliment, because wrestling should always be over-the-top. It’s why we love it. And the motivation is clear. Sasha does not think she can beat Bayley without being even more despicable than the Brooklyn match, and she’s not wrong. The first fall comes soon after. There is a switcheroo that ends with Sasha in the corner blocking the ref’s vision, followed by an awesome looking eye poke (Bayley is the absolute best at selling those types of things) before a roll-up. Perfect — the villain takes the lead by being diabolical, and now our beloved hero has to fight from underneath. The whole rest of the match, Sasha either cheats or usually does something heinous but within the rules. One of my favorite spots — Bayley went to the well too often with her corner dropkick on the floor. Sasha caught her legs and then swung Bayley’s head and back into the steps (actually catching more of the corner, which I doubt was intentional, but it is NASTY.) This happens right in front of Bayley’s family and Bayley Superfan (and audience proxy Izzy.) Sasha of course has to taunt them. This leads to one of the truly iconic moments in wrestling heeldom. Sasha gets her second fall by marching Bayley (selling like she’s endured major head trauma) up to the ramp where she throws Bayley head first into the LED countdown clock that flickers in and off, which is such great wrestling nonsense. Sasha then on her way back snatches Izzy’s headband, crawls into the ring to beat the count, mocks Bayley, does a fake cry taunt, and then snaps the headband before whipping it back to a now sobbing Izzy. Sasha gets some massive heel heat for this and it is truly a chef’s kiss of wrestling. There are a lot of callbacks and reversals from the Brooklyn match. My favorite: Bayley goes for the top rope poison rana like in Brooklyn, but Sasha rolls through (the agility to do that is unreal) and then Bayley adjusts her ponytail as the visual cue for her finisher, only to eat the Belly to Bayley from Sasha for a great near fall. But the ultimate callback comes from Bayley realizing she has to fight fire with fire to win — like some kind of action movie hero who starts of innocent but then knows he/she has to do what the bad guys do to save the day. Bayley is on the floor and does some really good and nasty looking work on Sasha’s left hand, just like what Sasha did so viciously to Bayley in Brooklyn. Bayley smashes Sasha’s hands into the ringsteps, she does an arm breaker thing through the ropes, etc. This first leads to Sasha not being able to fully hook the Bank Statement (procured after a reversal of a reversal, another evolution from the Brooklyn match.) Bayley then reverses it into her own submission, wrenching on the fingers she attacked earlier, while stomping away on Sasha’s face with her boot like Sasha did to her in Brooklyn, And like all good villains, Sasha does not have the guts to hold on and reveals her ultimate cowardice and verbally taps out with just a few seconds left. (They also avoided the dumb ‘overtime’ Ironman gimmick that happens so much. I know Bryan/MJF’s Ironman was fantastic, but the overtime addendum and confusion from it was so bad.) Afterwards, the locker room pours out, and the other Horsewomen and HHH are there. They literally give them both their flowers. The emotion is absolutely real. And fully earned. Painting one masterpiece is hard enough. They then had to do so in one of the most anticipated matches in WWE history (it really was) and with a gimmick that can really get tripped up. They more than delivered. This is one of the best matches in WWE history. My all-time favorite match was the epic Shield/Wyatts from 2014… but man, I might need to change that. Mercedes absolutely friggin’ rules. I hope the rest of the division can get elevated because she is a generational talent. I just hope Tony does not get wonky with it and Sasha ends up like the BCC where they’re sometimes heels and sometimes badass faces and it never really makes sense. Face Sasha aligned with Willow to go after Julia and Sky Blue is fine enough. The two witches will get better by being in the ring with a maestro. But the real storytelling magic awaits when The CEO backstabs Willow because if anyone in AEW can be a breakout babyface once they have a proper evil foil to overcome, it’s Willow.

The thing about Ratings talk is, we have a Ratings thread, where people who want to talk about ratings can do it, without bogging down the main TV and General threads with their nonsense. The last time anyone posted in it was like two months ago, but it's there.

Then let that be the value of it and let them alone use it. People around here use it as an empty cudgel to complain and say "AEW stinks and this is why". It's like attacking someone with a Nerf baseball bat. It's irritating but it's not really doing any damage so what's the point. I keep forgetting there is an ROH thread grrrrrrrrr

AEW hasn't been around for long enough for me to forget, and then be surprised by reading about and reminding myself, that DDP wrestled a match there. Additionally, it's probably his defacto retirement match. Wild. Edit: wrong thread but the damage is done.

So WWE is sending contracted Wrestlers to a GCW show:

That’s going to be a huge date night movie for couples who inhale keyboard cleaner together.

Unless we get insight into what Warner Discovery/TNT/TBS consider good ratings or a baseline bottom number that would cause them concern, then its all pointless speculation. Also:

My favorite moments on the show aside from Mercedes involved Samoa Joe, Will Ospreay and Okada. - Samoa Joe nudging the dead security guard off the stage was hilarious. - Okada saying "No...sing it.." was hilarious as is everything he's doing. - Ospreay's entire promo was fucking A+ and has me hyped for Dynasty. I saw Meltzer today say something about how Triple H was unfamiliar with Ospreay's game and to that I say... I think most of us were? I don't know. We knew he was one of the best wrestlers in the world but did we know he's one of the better promos in the business as well? Not to pick on Seth Rollins because I like him sometimes but imagine Ospreay in Rollins role. But we don't have to imagine that because instead he'll be putting on a dozen MOTYC's in AEW... What a signing.

He was in Detroit with my mom when she was researching crows right before she died.

Fun, fun, fun! I really liked Renee opening with a little rundown. The Mercedes promo was fine, and I was mostly along for the joy-ride. Samoa Joe promo was on point, the Cole Video was slightly less appetizing, but alright. Wardy showed he can promo, but didn't get any mic time after the PPV win. That is to say - the build over the past week left a little to be desired. Wardy v Joe was fine. I'm with @MattD on there should've been an escape and follow up Kokina Clutch. Not saying they buried the guy, but I wondered to myself - is 'Mike' headed to WWE now? I like seeing Swerve run-in, but kinda hate the destroy all security trope. It did lead to that fun Joe bit tho. Bucks/Okada promo was great as per usual. I couldn't stand Alex Marvez until I met him, and now I can't dislike him. Heel Okada, amirite? Bucks/Okada v Penta/Pac/Eddie was all kinds of fun as expected. I'm getting a feeling like even the Bucks low voters are coming around on this excellent heel act. Nice build to Okada v Eddie. Not that there was much indecision, but - I'm in. Christian/Copeland video was alright. To be clear, Orangeville Ontario is not Toronto. Not that I wouldn't like to know more about that town. Another excellent Will Ospreay promo. I imagine it's shitty to be a hater when he's killing it in ring and on the mic. The surprise at his promo aptitude is strange to me. It seemed pretty clear during his Forbidden Door etc cameos that he needed to be on US TV showing his excellent promo skills for at least two years. If a DVDVR 2022 archive is intact there might just have been a poster suggesting as much. Ospreay looks poised to be the biggest brightest star in wrestling by 'Dynasty' if not sooner. Deonna promo was excellent. I'm feeling that natural heel coming alive and I love it! Jay White v Darby was every bit as wonderful as I thought it could be. These two are poetry in motion in that ring. Fucking insane bump. Would've been totally fine with the countout, but loved the finish! POP! The post match angle was wonderfully heated. And Relieving. Welcome back Jay White! I got distracted by the boobirds in the Hook/Jericho v Gates bout. I'm not sure I was paying much attention at all here. Might even take a second look. The Gates entrance costumes and Laker colors were fantastic. Kyle O'Reilly promo was solid. I like the reference to the quality of this roster. Looking forward to Keith v O'Reilly, but... that being the only match advertised is 'AEW promoting' at it's worst. Jericho/Hook promo was good. Goddamn, please Chris Jericho end this babyface run next week. I love that Jericho told Hook that he could be a World Champion one day while holding a belt over his shoulder that says World Champion. Is there a way we can summon Poffo/Hennig from their graves to hammer the fuck out of that needless title belt? Willow v Riho was fantastic. Willow looked like a proper powerhouse. Riho is such a smart worker. I loved this match. Brutal bump by Willow there. Skye Blue is exponentially better as a heel. The Mercedes run-in was great. Time to question Kristin Statlander about her whereabouts. Hoping for the heel turn there. What an 'AEW rules the world' episode! Can't wait to ride the 511 down to the Coca Cola Coliseum next week and feel the AEW Live NRG!

Dear god The Rock’s promo once we got past the concert was all-time despicable heeling, Nothing quite like referencing the kids movie you starred in when saying you are going to beat a man with a belt and then hand his mom said belt. Incredible.

Best part of the show was easily this: https://youtu.be/D8M8I2SYEiA?si=ZAjjhl4HXy5nM_1f

Yeah, I asked around and got on a pretty big Facebook page for horror traders/buyers. Some stuff goes up to 300 bucks on there and I'm wondering how much my copy of, say, Psychomania might go for. I have Tetsuo the Iron Man around here and god know what that goes for.

Gotta love when you cut a promo that throws to clips like you’re sitting with Johnny Carson…

Settle down, twiztoretico. ;).

Shayna vs Masha Slamovich please

I assume its because Shayna isn't wrestling at Wrestlemania and Barnett is one of her former trainers. Its nice to see them willing to do more of these one-offs. I hope it continues. I know Michaels has mentioned wanting to do such things for NXT.

her Secret 6 run is fantastic, isn't it? you framing her upcoming X-Men stint as relative to that could not excite me more. [Reader, you make your own determination if i mean that in a sexual or non-sexual way]

Kenny does this too. They brought him up right in Deep South.

I’m 67, and The Viper joke is older than I am.

This feels like it came out of nowhere but good for him. Get out while still reasonably healthy. Incredible player. Enjoy that trip to Canton, Aaron!

I've gone too far down the early '00s rabbit hole: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLvETWzme3Z_bjJs3lPoH9M5PCIG9rfWBH&si=vij6GXNLxP7GGLKD

The Crow was one of those movies like Tango & Cash where my mom had saw a review on TV or something and was irrationally prejudiced to and considered a no-watch for me. Meanwhile I was renting Texas Chainsaw, but whatever.

I was just having some fun and don’t actually want to jump into this but we do have an idea of what they want (keep it over 500k) and half the discussions on this board are pointless speculation

This combined with the fact that once he's up there he may decide to skateboard back down has me worried. So, if there's only 50% chance he won't JUMP to begin with... damn!

MY TESTICLES ARE THE CUBAN ASSASSINS YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

If Okada beating Eddie indeed leads to a big match with PAC at Dynasty, then I'm all for it. That way I get to see both of those matches. I don't like the idea of breaking up the Continental Triple Crown so quickly, though. It must be weird for AEW to catch a lightning in a bottle with Swerve and still have Ospreay and Okada out there waiting. Hangman and MJF will be back at some point, Moxley and Bryan (and Jay White, now too) are still alive and Samoa Joe is the champion during all of this. Even with some guys leaving and others injured, that's still quite the crop of credible top talent to go after the World title. And when they aren't challenging for the belt, the matches against one another will still be amazing. Of course, with the number of PPV's constantly increasing, the need for marquee matches on tap increases as well. Similar situation is developing on the Women's roster as well. There would be plenty of talent to go around if they were given more time. AEW won't run out of big one on one Women's world title matches any time soon, given their pace.

Looking forward to Mercedes Mone vs. Jamie Hayter the most then Mone vs. Toni Storm and Mone vs. Serena Deeb to name just three. WWE's loss is AEW's gain. Said when Sasha Banks walked with Naomi that I didn't think she'd go back to WWE.

Great show. Mercedes came off like a proper mega star throughout. Wasn't sure about Okada's sudden turn but absolutely loving it already a week in, he was on fire here. Joe/Wardlow felt surprisingly short. Lionhook was fun and next week they implode already. rip Bang Bang Scissor Gang. Great main event, Riho matches are generally always fantastic, nice finish.

Btw, this show fucking ruled. Mone’s music sounds awesome and sets herself apart from so many others. Dickhead Okada is awesome. This is fun watching him adapt his style, which was already pretty safe and close to a western style, to American audiences. Holy shit. Never did I imagine that Will Ospreay would suddenly become one of the best babyface promos in wrestling. That was fucking amazing. As big of a star as Mone came off as, Ospreay looks like he’s just as big of a star. This guy is fired the fuck up. It’s too bad that he’s about as reckless as Darby and twice as banged up as Darby. Speaking of, I’m almost happy Darby is going to be taking time off from wrestling to do something probably much safer for him, climbing Everest.

The current power brokers grew up in an era where commentators were instructed to ignore what was happening in the ring in favour of shilling the fact that Hulk Hogan would be out for the main event, and hated it. Tony Schiavone hated his job, at that time.

Had Phil on the newest episode of my podcast that dropped today. We talked everything DEAN~! related and covered most everything that’s been announced this far.