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Dynamite - 8/3/2022


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3 hours ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Can anyone think of an instance where a Jericho program has been good and he's been the supporting actor/not the focus of attention?

Only instance I can think of is the Saturn dress feud in WCW, but even that gets an * given he was on the way out. Everything else is either Jericho being the centre of attention in 80% of the feud, a program where he's less influential and its not about him (HHH, Hogan) or its a Fandango program where he's dogged it (Orton title program when he first returned)

The MJF promo about him hitching his wagon to upcoming stars and pretending he's putting them over has more than a kernel of truth to it. 

Churned thru the upper to mid card as champ before dropping the belt to Moxley, and never really returned the falls to guys who probably needed them afterwards (Darby, Page mostly). 

Orange Cassidy feud where the majority of the major moments centred around Jericho, Orange beat him twice (including a flubbed finish) and no-one really cares about it a month later.

MJF program should have focused around MJF, the Pinnacle and the prospect of MJF getting his comeuppance. Instead it was around the Labours of Jericho, the Inner Circle tension, and Jericho getting his win back. Both the War Games and the PPV finish felt anticlimactic as a result.

Kingston feud has at least been even in its focus, but it's lead to a Jericho title program and Kingston in a nothing match with Sami, following a PPV match where Jericho gets the victory over Danielson (in fairness injury prevented this going anywhere) and the War Games finish that also has gone nowhere so far. 

You have last week where Danielson put Garcia over big time, and then this week, Jericho taking 2/3 of the match, beating Yuta cleanly and beating him down after the match when Yuta is absolutely hot right now to set up a nothing title match with Mox.  Self serving.

BUT: Any reasonable list of "pro wrestlers who are way way way way way more over, famous, and popular now than they were three years ago" would definitely have to include Orange Cassidy, Darby Allen, Adam Page, MJF, and Eddie Kingston.  So, I don't think there's any reasonable way to argue that feuding with Jericho actually hurt any of those dudes. Honestly, how much hotter could, say, Darby or Kingston possibly be?

Edited by Gordlow
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10 minutes ago, Gordlow said:

BUT: Any reasonable list of "pro wrestlers who are way way way way way more over, famous, and popular now than they were three years ago" would definitely have to include Orange Cassidy, Darby Allen, Adam Page, MJF, and Eddie Kingston.  So, I don't think there's any reasonable way to argue that feuding with Jericho actually hurt any of those dudes. Honestly, how much more hotter could, say, Darby or Kingston possibly be?

I'm not suggesting that feuding with Jericho hurt them. It just didn't do that much for them and the "Jericho working with the younger talent" talking point is closer to "Jericho leeching off the younger guys", and in hindsight the majority of these star making programs have been largely presented from the perspective of Jericho exclusively.

Darby kinda floundered for a bit until Sting arrived, they could have easily put him in the slot that Orange got instead. Kingston was already massively over before the Jericho program, and I think it's probably lineball to suggest he's hotter post-Jericho program than he was before it (or could have been had they continued the Punk program beyond where they left it). 

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I dunno, I'll need to rewatch it - but the match felt very similar to the times Rock would come back and put someone over in 2003, only for HHH to then squash them in under 5 minutes and make them look like a loser a week later. 

I feel like they could have done the same match with Claudio, and achieved a similar result whilst avoiding Yuta taking the unnecessary loss and beating while he's got the momentum he does.

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7 hours ago, John E. Dynamite said:

This speaks to a larger character problem with Jungle Boy, though. All the leather jackets and swear word promos on Earth don't stop him from being a 5'5" born rich workrate guy. How much money you think he wants to lose an apuestas?

Jungle Boy 5'5"?

Luchasaurus Jungle Boy Marko Stunt Jurassic Editorial Stock Photo - Stock  Image | Shutterstock | Shutterstock Editorial

Luchasaurus is 6'4". Marko is 5'3". 

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Went back through a good chunk of the show I hadn't been able to see last night. Lethal vs Cassidy was really good. Lethal showed a lot of ass for the head games. The transition worked well. Cassidy's selling to explain pretty much everything that happened in the back half was aces. Probably Lethal's best AEW match. I also thought Matt vs Christian was very good. Matt came in with a decent amount of intensity and it's fun to see Christian remixing all of his stuff to work as a heel again so it plays in different parts of matches and in different ways. I'd love to see him against Cassidy actually. The dumpster match had some nice moments but might have gone on for a tad too long. 

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I don’t really have anything to add, I just came here to heart all the positive Jamie Hayter posts. She’s my Cesaro. She’s clearly great, but just doesn’t have the machine behind her. 

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29 minutes ago, Mr Harms said:

I don’t really have anything to add, I just came here to heart all the positive Jamie Hayter posts. She’s my Cesaro. She’s clearly great, but just doesn’t have the machine behind her. 

They should pull the trigger on her. For one thing, you need an actual title change on one of these Battle of the Belts. Run it for a couple of months where Baker gets more and more jealous of her being champ. You can use ThunderStorm as an attraction and feud them with TayJay or something. Rosa doesn't need the belt right now. 

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8 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

A Camel Clutch with the recipient in a Full Nelson would be a mean finish. 

EDIT: Or just steal Shinzaki's Straightjacket Camel Clutch

I'm here for either of these.  Mr. Gannosuke from the FMW days did a Full Nelson Camel Clutch and I've always felt it would get over in the States.  Same for Shinzaki's Straightjacket Camel Clutch (Gokuraku-gatame?  It's been a while.)

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5 minutes ago, Matt D said:

They should pull the trigger on her. For one thing, you need an actual title change on one of these Battle of the Belts. Run it for a couple of months where Baker gets more and more jealous of her being champ. You can use ThunderStorm as an attraction and feud them with TayJay or something. Rosa doesn't need the belt right now. 

Rosa had a busted run, it isn't entirely her fault but she isn't blameless. I know I'm over her

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Miro is already using a Camel Clutch as his finisher though.

 

Edited by AxB
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8 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

A Camel Clutch with the recipient in a Full Nelson would be a mean finish. 

Stu Hart’s Sugar Hold?  Is that a real thing?  I’ve only seen the move in Fire Pro games so I’m not sure it’s anything more than an urban legend.

Supposedly, the sugar hold resembles a horizontal full nelson.  The wrestler puts his opponent in the camel clutch starting position, then changes the positioning of his hands so that the opponent basically locked in the full nelson.  The attacking wrestling then grinds his knees into the opponent’s back and the opppent hopefully gives up.

Curious if anyone has seen this.  I’ve only seen it in video games.

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12 minutes ago, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

Stu Hart’s Sugar Hold?  Is that a real thing?  I’ve only seen the move in Fire Pro games so I’m not sure it’s anything more than an urban legend.

Supposedly, the sugar hold resembles a horizontal full nelson.  The wrestler puts his opponent in the camel clutch starting position, then changes the positioning of his hands so that the opponent basically locked in the full nelson.  The attacking wrestling then grinds his knees into the opponent’s back and the opppent hopefully gives up.

Curious if anyone has seen this.  I’ve only seen it in video games.

The Sugar Hold is a very different thing. 

Stevie Richards / Mr. Gannosuke's Seated Full Nelson is its own move, but a lot of people think it's the Sugar Hold because of one old list of wrestling moves that explained it poorly.

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  • Lethal vs. Cassidy was pretty good.  Orange Cassidy is the king of selling.  Not just with actions though.  Cassidy screaming at the ref to do his job and get Lethal to break the Figure-Four after he refused to relinquish the hold during Orange's rope break was tremendous.  Good on the cameraman to be in the right spot to catch the chatter in the ring.  Trent coming out on Chuck's shoulders to counter Singh was also great.  GIANT TRENCH COAT~!
  • Hung Bucks vs. UE in the Trios tournament will be a match.  Don't really care about the outcome.  The tournament is the House of Black's to win or lose.  To the Buck's credit, the UE heel turn made a small child cry tears of pure fucking rage  When I was a kid, I wept buckets when Johnny Valentine kayfabe broke Tim Woods's leg.  Same with Greg Valentine breaking Wahoo McDaniel's leg and Randy Savage crushing Ricky Steamboat's windpipe.  I believed.  Pro wresting is having the desired effect when you can cause a young boy to become so inconsolable than only a Turtle Sundae will cheer him up.
  • Jamie Hayter comes to the ring in her PAWG tights and suddenly it is all Settle Down, Cibernetico! at the JT household.  It is about time that Jamie picked up a career defining win.  The enthusiasm of her celebration was contagious.  I was so happy for her.  Was it irony that Rosa wore a Sandbaggin' shirt to the ring and then commenced to sandbag?  Perhaps they should put the belt on Toni Storm for a bit.  Nah.  The belt belongs around the waist of Kris Statlander.
  • Hobbs killing dudes will never not be entertaining.  The blood feud with Ricky Starks should be awesome.
  • Matt Hardy is 47 years old.  He moves like a 74 year old.  Normally you prepare for your big match in the feud by killing someone with similar qualities as your opponent.   Cage should have been working someone quick like Fuego to prep for Jungle Boy.  I love Matt, but he is barely mobile.
  • The Dumpster Match was a dumpster fire.  I only paid attention to Caster's rap.
  • Jericho worked about the smartest match I have ever seen him work.  Weathered Yuta's storm, slowed down to a deliberate pace, and used the knee in the back of the head version of the Liontamer to secure the win and send a message.  I was kinda happy when Jericho was phased out of the AEW world title picture, but now I am interested in seeing Moxley and Jericho beat the holy hell out of each other for the richest prize in the industry.  Jericho cares again and so do I.

As far as clutch style finishers go, I was always a fan of stiff ass Low Ki's Dragon Clutch. 

IIRC Nigel McGuinness had a camel clutch variation which incorporated a hammerlock when the Tower of London and the Jawbreaker Lariat became two-count hope spots.

Edited by J.T.
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Alexa, show me shirts made for wrestling fans to go "OOOOOOOOHHHHH!" like someone just said a bad word.

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I really like how AEW isn't afraid to just beat somebody instead of playing the "how do we get out of this match we booked?" game.  

LOOOOOL Best Friends bringing back the GIANT TRENCH COAT from 2014.

It's insane that we're watching Christian vs Matt Hardy almost a QUARTER CENTURY after both guys came to prominence.  Props to the fan with the sign "I played this match on No Mercy"

Why did Brody King look like Captain Spaulding in that promo shot?

Women's tag was amazing!  Fuck yeah give Hayter a win.

Ethan Page continues to do nothing for me as he takes TV time to shoot~! on the boss for not giving him TV time.

I rewound the Acclaimed rap multiple times, laughing my ass off.

Hangman!  Bucks!  FRIENDSHIP

MANCE WARNER!  I did not expect that.  AEW is crazy.

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, J.T. said:

As far as clutch style finishers go, I was always a fan of stiff ass Low Ki's Dragon Clutch. 

IIRC Nigel McGuinness also used this as his finish when the Tower of London and the Jawbreaker Lariat became two-count hope spots.

Wasn't sure whether to correct a bestie of mine, Nigel McGuinness' was to the arm calling the move the London Dungeon. 0:53.

I thought it was a great move more should use. Thankfully Zack Gibson thought so bringing it back as Shankly Gates, 1:50.

Criminal Grizzled Young Veterans never won the Dusty Rhodes Tag Team Classic or the NXT World Tag Team Championship.

Edited by The Natural
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Rosa has a nice connection with the crowd and seems like a quality human being, but she is clearly in need of some fine tuning. Sometimes, like last night, she’s fine, but the inconsistency is so clear. AEW needs to properly access who their best women’s division performers are and place them correctly in the hierarchy. And belt them. I sometimes wonder if they’re too concerned with Toni needing to be in the company x number of days before strapping her. I’d save Hayter for the inevitable tag titles with Britt. DMD is far more effective in tags. It saves her from blowing up (as she so often did in that title run) and allows her undeniable charisma to shine beside a workhorse like Jamie. I love Hayter as much as anyone, but she needs to choose a hair colour. Goddamn is that two tone horrible looking. And the gaudy make-up. Tho, it does scream heel. I’d also suggest, tho I undeniably enjoy her current ring gear, I wonder if something slightly more respectable might be a better idea for her and the company overall. Perhaps I’m wrong here.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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44 minutes ago, Tarheel Moneghetti said:

Stu Hart’s Sugar Hold?  Is that a real thing?  I’ve only seen the move in Fire Pro games so I’m not sure it’s anything more than an urban legend.

Supposedly, the sugar hold resembles a horizontal full nelson.  The wrestler puts his opponent in the camel clutch starting position, then changes the positioning of his hands so that the opponent basically locked in the full nelson.  The attacking wrestling then grinds his knees into the opponent’s back and the opppent hopefully gives up.

Curious if anyone has seen this.  I’ve only seen it in video games.

Stevie Richards definitely used to do the camel clutch full nelson on Sunday Night Heat, 2003/04 time. Pretty sure it was called the Rat Trap.

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6 minutes ago, The Natural said:

Wasn't sure whether to correct a bestie of mine, Nigel McGuinness' was to the arm calling the move the London Dungeon. 0:53.

I thought it was a great move more should use. Thankfully Zack Gibson thought so bringing it back as Shankly Gates, 1:50.

Criminal Grizzled Young Veterans never won the Dusty Rhodes Tag Team Classic or the NXT World Tag Team Championship.

Yep.   I edited my post when I remembered that he secured a hammerlock with his clutch finisher.

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Please no babyface Young Bucks. I think I'll actually be pulling for Adam Cole to win a title ? so the Bucks can fuck up Page for their failure or something. Wouldn't hate it if the titles go to a less predictable team as the two obvious choices cancel each other out in some way. Cassidy is a star but always been on the periphery of the title scene. I get that the Best Friends aren't exactly peaking right now but I'd love to see them pull off an upset, however unlikely that is. 

I was thinking the same thing, Matt, about a title eventually having to change at one of the next couple of Battle of the Belts shows or the concept is meaningless. Doubt they pull the trigger with Hayter despite the story beats between her and Baker being obvious and different from anything they've done to date. I do think that is a more interesting route than Hayter turning on Baker since that would be too similar to the Hobbs turn. People want to cheer a bad ass like Hayter too. 

Edit:moving the discovery talk to the appropriate thread. 

Edited by Jiji
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13 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Ethan Page continues to do nothing for me as he takes TV time to shoot~! on the boss for not giving him TV time.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's done this tired fucking gimmick of claiming to be underutilized everywhere he's been featured: EVOLVE for sure alongside ACH (who actually was underused), Impact I think, and now AEW. He's above average in pretty much every aspect and about right where he should be. It's also poor heel work when you get the audience cheering you (and also too similar to the much better mjf promo). Maybe he should have started with his glasses on so he could dramatically take them off halfway to make sure we knew he was serious now. Lmao. 

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10 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I really like how AEW isn't afraid to just beat somebody instead of playing the "how do we get out of this match we booked?" game.  

Well said, ppl ought to consider this before bellyaching about their favourite not going over. Sure beats a lame finish being on the table every time out. The ‘clean’ finish is one of the most refreshing and strong attributes of this company. I was reminded of this while watching a very good Bianca Belair match on Tuesday morning. Without the (nearly) always clean finishes policy, it wouldn’t be nearly as fun to speculate who wins in the pre-chat. Think back to the excitement surrounding the Page-Danielson matches.

I’m not a fan of 2022 Jericho the Wrestler, but the wins over Kingston (who was totally protected) and Yuta (he’s still young and should absolutely be able to eat a loss to a ‘legend’) have positioned a potential big viewership/interest match with Moggsley. Not sure I Need to see it, but I can certainly accept a few less desirable matches aimed at the mainstream tv audience. 

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13 minutes ago, Jiji said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he's done this tired fucking gimmick of claiming to be underutilized everywhere he's been featured

If you smell shit everywhere you go, check your own shoes

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