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JUNE 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION - Thread 2

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Just now, nate said:

I see your Keith and raise you Hyatte.

Talk about a guy that descended into self-parody within the space of about three months...

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12 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

I feel like Matt made me watch a Mocho Cota match, and Cota was doing some excellent mugging into the camera when he was booted in the face by a heel at close range. Seriously some of the funniest shit I've ever seen. 

That dude's alright with me, but I just can't get into trios matches like that, unfortunately. 

@OSJ: Agree to disagree. That first season with the derivative "evil owner" stuff didn't work for me at all, and I wasn't really into any of the interweaving side storylines. It wasn't until the actor playing Dario Cueto went from "typical evil executive" to "dude with a serious bloodlust who was deeply involved in evil Aztec mysticism and the criminal underworld" that the show started to get better, and I'm a huge Matanza/Jeff Cobb mark because of Cobb's work as Matanza. 

@For Great Justice: Y'all just keep making interesting points while I try to post. Disagree on your point because Bret was ALL about story; he just focused closely on how the story would play out in-ring. He wasn't doing flashy moves just to do them; he'd do moves and callbacks and finishes that enhanced whatever story was being told. I just mentioned not long ago the Bret/Owen WM X finish as one of my favorites in wrestling because it showed that Owen wanted to win so badly and to show Bret that he was as great as Bret was that he scouted the shit out of Bret's matches and recognized the victory roll strategy that Bret used against Bam Bam at KotR '93 ten months earlier. It made Owen more than just a jealous scumbag; he really did think that he was underappreciated, and maybe he was, and that gave his heel turn some emotional weight.

Seth Rollins ain't doing anything half that smart or half that interested in telling a story for his finishes, I can assure you of that. 

@Elsalvajeloco: You definitely know more than me in this regard, so I'll defer to your knowledge.I just have a feeling that more ex-football players came over to wrestling rather than going into MMA; I don't have actual numbers or enough knowledge of boxing and MMA to make a definite claim. 

It's a more natural progression especially if you're under 170 pounds which is probably the cutoff considering Matt Riddle was a lifelong welterweight which is 170 lbs in MMA. But to be honest, most of these dudes coming from college wrestling and football have the charisma of a plank. I think Riddle made it because he was already considered a weirdo and a bit out there. I mean his first thing on TV ever was on TUF and he KO'd a dude so badly he was stretchered out or something and referee Herb Dean is raising his hand in victory while this dude has like this wide shit eating grin. Herb just turns to him, looks at his reaction to this brutal happening, and just walks away weirded out. Herb Dean referees in a different locale across the globe every damn weekend for the last 15 years at least and I've never seen him that shocked by a victor in an MMA fight. And Herb has been apart of some strange and bizarre shit in his day. I knew then he was a different type of dude. I think what propelled him is he liked smoking weed, wasn't that dedicated to MMA in the first place even though the UFC was high (I guess pun intended) on him at the beginning, and he eventually faded out. If he was a good fighter or good enough to justify him keeping him around, he would still be in MMA. WWE lucked out on that one because he is a real life character. 

I mean if you think about someone like a Dominic Breazeale in boxing...he had a late start in boxing because he was a quarterback at Northern Colorado. He was an Olympian. Yet, he has the physique of someone working mall security part time. On the other hand, Vince would lose his mind over an Anthony Joshua who probably never did anything but boxing. Whether he is on the gimmick or not, he is built like a comic book character, charming, and the women go crazy for him. He sells out stadiums based on all that. If this was the old WWF Vince, he would get pushed way AHEAD of a Daniel Bryan, Kofi Kingston, or Seth Rollins. No question about it in my mind. But just like with someone like The Rock, there hasn't been someone like AJ in boxing in forever. It's the luck of the draw. 

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I can't tell if Rollins is working me or not, but my instinct is that he's never been clever enough to work like this before, so no. He's probably just in his feelings.

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For the love of Gotch, Becky, take Seth's damn phone away!

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

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.

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs

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I don't even like Will Ospreay but this is getting ridiculous.

Rollins' interview with Sports Illustrated continues and furthers all of his Twitter rants, too.

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6 hours ago, Craig H said:

Meltzer and Alvarez brought that up on WOR this morning that if you have to mention your bank account then you've lost the argument.

I'm starting to see why some of y'all don't like Seth. He's being a gigantic douchebag.

I never gave him a lot of grief. I didn't love or hate him as Tyler Black or Seth Rollins. Using Rollins in his ring name as an homage to Henry Rollins gave him points in my book. Seth hasn't just crept across the line into giant asshole territory, he obliterated that line. He really should keep his fucking mouth shut. He should remember that he was HHH's nxt golden child. He didn't get booked to look like a complete idiot like Moxley did.

Maybe he feels like the weight of the world his on his shoulders, being champion when the ratings are at almost historically low numbers and they're performing in half-empty arenas. We might be in the midst of watching the guy having a meltdown.

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I think one big problem with the ECW,  NJPW,  Meltzer etc. influence talking points is the fan who likes what he likes in part because he feels he is a part of a secret underground club outside of the mainstream.  It's like the indie band that they grew up loving and then they went platinum and casual listeners started liking them.  

I think there's some of that going on here.  

A lot of dudes in the 90s and early 2000s sat around saying "wouldn't it be cool if WWF was like this?"  not thinking that WWF would ever in a million years employ those people or at least not push them..  

I saw this happen with CM Punk early on.  Then it became less about whether the guy would be pushed but how he would be pushed or who he would be paired with.  These were valid criticisms.  However,  fast-forward to today and it's evolved to where most of the talent came from an underground club.  Now you have situations like the other night where Samoa Joe is facing Ricochet and they have a good match and Meltzer's take on it is "It was alright but it wasn't PWG!"  

Or AJ Styles and Ricochet last night have a great match and literally nobody is talking about it.  

I get that creative is to blame for some of that or even most of that because of how things are built or aren't built but I do feel there are a lot of lapsed fans who would not like anything from WWE because it's the corporate machine they've fought so hard against for the last 20 years. 

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49 minutes ago, For Great Justice said:

Also, and this might be contentious I think, I would lay some blame at Bret Hart. Now, Bret was awesome, but through admiration of Hart I believe that this notion of the physical execution of the moves being of greater importance than the story being sold was grown within the early internet fan base, through which stuff like Lance Storm, RVD/Lynn and in general 10.0 Perfect Execution became en vogue. 

You could trace that to DK/TM if you wish, but for US audiences perhaps it is Hart and (God love him) guys like Scott Keith that promoted it in the mid 90’s.

 

Bret told the story with the moves dude. His gimmick was entirely being the best at doing moves. He was literally called the excellence of execution. 

33 minutes ago, nate said:

I see your Keith and raise you Hyatte.

Damn Nate's got me on block

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Is this like Office Space and Seth is trying to get fired?

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13 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

I can't tell if Rollins is working me or not, but my instinct is that he's never been clever enough to work like this before, so no. He's probably just in his feelings.

Depends on what your definition of "working" is. Will it result in you spending money on his merch or tickets to see him wrestle? If anyone says yes, then it worked. I wonder who those people are though.

Becky talking shit to Beth Phoenix made me want to spend money on a Becky/Beth match.

Seth talking shit is much like his wrestling. Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

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Just now, Craig H said:

Is this like Office Space and Seth is trying to get fired?

He's part Peter Gibbons and part Milton, obviously.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, jaedmc said:

Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.

Also, the bit about the tale being told by an idiot.

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy
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3 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

Also, the bit about the tale being told by an idiot.

Maybe not. He may be fleecing money out of the old man with this kind of company man banter.

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, jaedmc said:

Maybe not. He may be fleecing money out of the old man with this kind of company man banter.

Jinder Mahal just signed a new five-year contract. The old man is fleecing himself at this point. 

Edited by West Newbury Bad Boy
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The one thing I kinda agree with Seth on is that Ospreay is coming off as someone who knows it all and I don't think you can compare yourself to people who have worked under Vince's maniacal machine.  Ospreay would have to work NXT for a year,  garner all the praise and adulation from that audience and then have it stripped away little by little by little until he's just another cog in the machine working tirelessly to a point of nowhere to understand.  If he's lucky he'd be a midcarder with 50/50 booking.  If he's unlucky he's working 205 Live where casual audiences shit on you or sit on their hands or go use the restroom. 

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Oh man, what's Jinder up to? I haven't seen that dude in ages. 

I was there the night he won the title. Might need to make my own power point on how WWE taking Chicago for granted that night lead to fans selling out the Sears Centre for All In.

 

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1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

The one thing I kinda agree with Seth on is that Ospreay is coming off as someone who knows it all and I don't think you can compare yourself to people who have worked under Vince's maniacal machine.  Ospreay would have to work NXT for a year,  garner all the praise and adulation from that audience and then have it stripped away little by little by little until he's just another cog in the machine working tirelessly to a point of nowhere to understand.  If he's lucky he'd be a midcarder with 50/50 booking.  If he's unlucky he's working 205 Live where casual audiences shit on you or sit on their hands or go use the restroom. 

Rollins didn't go through any of this either, though. He might be friends with some people who did, but on the other hand, Ospreay might be friends with people who went through that too.

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I say this non-sarcastically, but is Seth okay?

Like within 48 hours this went from him being a company man trying to defend the locker room to just outright picking fights with Dave and Wade. Like I am genuinely concerned he is having some sort of mental and emotional breakdown from the pressure of being the main event during the current time. 

Either that, or he has decided to live the "Burn It Down" gimmick.

Man, if only Bob Geigel was still alive so he could strip him for "conduct unbecoming a champion."

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5 hours ago, Smelly McUgly said:

(Is there really an anti-British English rhetoric that's serious? People over here in 'Merica still think the Queen's sounds classy AF and even would probably love a Cockney accent despite any of the "My Fair Lady" bias that might have permeated our culture.)

Meant mostly in jest, there was some friendly banter about Massachusetts accents / British English somewhere in a recent thread. 

I’m equally jealous of folks like @Tromatagon who live local enough to go to Lucha Underground (when it existed). Well, now living in Oz the only wrestling positive is I can watch both US and Japanese wrestling without staying up ungodly hours. 

Wow, Seth is really succeeding in working us, if his goal is to make himself look like a tit. I also agree on those SI comments countering Moxley being just bad form, whether you’re a company man or not there is a way to do it without attacking your supposed friend’s character.

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27 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I think one big problem with the ECW,  NJPW,  Meltzer etc. influence talking points is the fan who likes what he likes in part because he feels he is a part of a secret underground club outside of the mainstream.  It's like the indie band that they grew up loving and then they went platinum and casual listeners started liking them.  

I think there's some of that going on here.  

A lot of dudes in the 90s and early 2000s sat around saying "wouldn't it be cool if WWF was like this?"  not thinking that WWF would ever in a million years employ those people or at least not push them..  

I saw this happen with CM Punk early on.  Then it became less about whether the guy would be pushed but how he would be pushed or who he would be paired with.  These were valid criticisms.  However,  fast-forward to today and it's evolved to where most of the talent came from an underground club.  Now you have situations like the other night where Samoa Joe is facing Ricochet and they have a good match and Meltzer's take on it is "It was alright but it wasn't PWG!"  

Or AJ Styles and Ricochet last night have a great match and literally nobody is talking about it.  

I get that creative is to blame for some of that or even most of that because of how things are built or aren't built but I do feel there are a lot of lapsed fans who would not like anything from WWE because it's the corporate machine they've fought so hard against for the last 20 years. 

Remember when Vince McMahon was good enough to get people en masse to buy into whatever it was he wanted to do and like it?

Pepperidge Farm remembers.

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Maybe Seth is also playing the long game. He sees what HHH did and figures that Vince may live until his 90s and never release his grasp on WWE. We may never get HHH running WWE, but we could get HHH doing it. Too bad Seth can't marry into the family unless Steph leaves HHH, which would be a really weird Demi Moore leaves Bruce Willis and hooks up with Ashton Kutcher type of thing.

I mean, it's not a stretch to think that 2000/2001 HHH would have been acting the same way if Twitter and Instagram were around back then.

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Now I want some goldfish

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