December 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[Elsalvajeloco]

23 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I've been reading the Jeff Pearlman book on Bo Jackson and it mentioned that he was on the High School Wrestling team for a time, picking up wins by forfeit because competing schools didn't have heavyweights, and then his wrestling win streak ended with him refusing to face a 300lb heavyweight from another school and forfeiting.

The book mentioned that Bo tried wrestling in Jr High but was disillusioned that slamming a kid was a disqualification. Not sure how much Gulas regularly ran in Birmingham in the mid/late-70s so who knows which wrestler inspired Bo Jackson there.

As weird as this might sound, Ahmed Johnson might be the closest to a Bo Jackson.. meaning he was freak of nature wrestler that had problems with injuries. Although Ahmed didn't get to as high of a level by summer 1996 when he had his first big injury.

Not too long ago, I saw 1 or 2 matches of Ahmed in Global. Here is where the setting yourself up for failure comes into play for both WWF and Tony Norris himself:

1. Even though he was a heel in Global, he clearly has that "Oh shit, this guy is a fucking wrecking ball" unique physical charisma that you only get but so often. I think that's sort of missing with Wardlow for example. However, I think 9 out of 10 times it's innate. Problem is though, in Ahmed's case, he couldn't work. If I'm WWF, I would sign the guy on the condition he go to USWA for no less than a year and put him with some of those guys I listed above to get some of that under control. Plus, I put a stipulation in there saying he has to stay within a certain weight range. After two or three injuries in WWF, he blew up in size and just looked like anything on his body could go at anytime.

2. If I am Tony Norris and I am in the industry where a black man would have good cause to have serious mistrust for the business, the FIRST person I am making friends with IS Ron Simmons. I am not trying to get on his bad side. Moreover, I am learning how to improve on my craft and learning how to cut promos. In that era, where WWF really needed stars, I think they started signing everyone who had ONE good quality and where willing to take a wait and see approach with the rest. I mean they gave a shot to Terry Gordy after the plane incident where he was never the same again. With that in mind, he had a GOLDEN opportunity to be the first black star of that era and IMO the next Junkyard Dog. Coming off a horrific 1995 where there were only a handful of bright spots, he could have walked into the proverbial endzone and been one of the top guys heading into the next era with Austin/Rock and then Austin/Rock/HHH and sometimes Foley.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

6 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I'm in February. I finally got around to a DDP vs Benoit US title match that was on a Thunder, that I only ever knew about from a PWI magazine that talked about how the Flock sabotaged the match by putting a smoke machine under the ring.

It's weirdly smoky in the arena, but the angle is never once referenced on the show at all. It's a really good match too, DDP keeps up with Benoit move for move. Hitting the Diamond Cutter on a Sick Boy springboard was one of the first real high spots out of nowhere aspects of the move.

Oh I might need to check that out. I’ve been skipping Thunder. But I do know that DDP, and Raven feud were relegated Thunder a lot. That’s been a blind spot on rewatches.

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[odessasteps]

This reminds me of the discussion we had about what if Karl Malone or Barkley had gone into the rasslin. 

[Pedro]

14 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not too long ago, I saw 1 or 2 matches of Ahmed in Global. Here is where the setting yourself up for failure comes into play for both WWF and Tony Norris himself:

1. Even though he was a heel in Global, he clearly has that "Oh shit, this guy is a fucking wrecking ball" unique physical charisma that you only get but so often. I think that's sort of missing with Wardlow for example. However, I think 9 out of 10 times it's innate. Problem is though, in Ahmed's case, he couldn't work. If I'm WWF, I would sign the guy on the condition he go to USWA for no less than a year and put him with some of those guys I listed above to get some of that under control. Plus, I put a stipulation in there saying he has to stay within a certain weight range. After two or three injuries in WWF, he blew up in size and just looked like anything on his body could go at anytime.

2. If I am Tony Norris and I am in the industry where a black man would have good cause to have serious mistrust for the business, the FIRST person I am making friends with IS Ron Simmons. I am not trying to get on his bad side. Moreover, I am learning how to improve on my craft and learning how to cut promos. In that era, where WWF really needed stars, I think they started signing everyone who had ONE good quality and where willing to take a wait and see approach with the rest. I mean they gave a shot to Terry Gordy after the plane incident where he was never the same again. With that in mind, he had a GOLDEN opportunity to be the first black star of that era and IMO the next Junkyard Dog. Coming off a horrific 1995 where there were only a handful of bright spots, he could have walked into the proverbial endzone and been one of the top guys heading into the next era with Austin/Rock and then Austin/Rock/HHH and sometimes Foley.

Didn't he go to USWA for awhile though? I never really watched much USWA but I did read all the Apter mags during that time. Moadib was a beast in GWF/

 

Yes!  I agree on the Simmons comment. Ron would have been a great mentor to Tony had Tony wanted to listen and behave. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Didn't he go to USWA for awhile though? I never really watched much USWA but I did read all the Apter mags during that time. Moadib was a beast in GWF/

 

Yes!  I agree on the Simmons comment. Ron would have been a great mentor to Tony had Tony wanted to listen and behave. 

He had a few matches in USWA but he was already in WWF by then. He won the USWA heavyweight title and did a couple matches with Lawler and Jesse James.

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

This reminds me of the discussion we had about what if Karl Malone or Barkley had gone into the rasslin. 

I think Barkley would have sucked as a wrestler, but it's killing me that he shows up randomly in the WCW hype videos in the lead up for Flair vs. Vader at Starrcade 1993. Then, he shows up on a Nitro in 1995 with Flair when they're at the America West Arena. Maybe it's just the knowing Flair part, but he's clearly enjoying himself.

[odessasteps]

I’d love to hear stories about the Crockett guys and if they were  hanging out the UNC or NC State players in the mid 80s. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I feel like we got Barkley, with Pittman. Malone with say 50 more pounds of muscle might be very interesting with his handsome facial features.

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Dog]

Settle down, Hollywood Subsetico.

[The Green Meanie]

Cultaholic did another AI episode, this time for Smackdown:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yU90jT8bgw

[The Natural]

 

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

20 hours ago, Infinit said:

WWE is doing an MSG house show and a Best of Raw on USA instead of a live Raw featuring the return of John Cena at MSG. Help make that make sense lol

 

 

 

 

 

 

Was Cena ever actually booked for MSG? I read the results and didn’t see him listed at all. But the fans were treated to two Braun Strowman matches to end the night, plus Jinder Mahal. 

[Dolfan in NYC]

2 hours ago, LF2 said:

Was Cena ever actually booked for MSG? I read the results and didn’t see him listed at all. But the fans were treated to two Braun Strowman matches to end the night, plus Jinder Mahal. 

He definitely appeared in the commercials, but of course, "Card Subject To Change".  

They did get Bray's first match since his return though.

[odessasteps]

4 minutes ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

He definitely appeared in the commercials, but of course, "Card Subject To Change".  

They did get Bray's first match since his return though.

I doubt that was worth braving the elements.

[Cobra Commander]

John Cena in the news:

https://www.inquirer.com/entertainment/john-cena-twitter-followers-wwe-smackdown-live-20221227.html

[SirSmUgly]

I think, at best, Ahmed gets the Sid treatment and fades out by mid-1998 instead of mid-1997 like Sid did. His accent was too thick to cut the longer promos and skits that the company moved toward.

Ahmed was maybe ten years too late because that type of physical charisma, paired with a manager who could talk for him, would have been unstoppable. Stick Ahmed with Gary Hart and watch the magic happen (and the face turn when Hart eventually pisses off Ahmed would be flames, though I don't know who you'd get to talk for him as a face manager).

Edited December 27, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia

[odessasteps]

But it likely would have come with a gimmick deemed problematic in 2022, be he some kind of African Gary Hart found on a world tour or some gang member from Halsted Street in Chicago. 

[For Great Justice]

16 hours ago, odessasteps said:

This reminds me of the discussion we had about what if Karl Malone or Barkley had gone into the rasslin. 

I mean, as a big ole country kid from north Louisiana, a Malone that came around about 10 years earlier could’ve definitely entered the business for sure. He was taken in the 85 draft, and by that point Mid South was on the downward slope and would turn into the UWF six months later…so a little late.

But a 1975 Malone? I could easily see a big athletic dude from Summerield that was already a local celebrity like Malone joining up with Watts after leaving La Tech instead of going to the NBA or shortly after. The Doctor Death career track.

[SirSmUgly]

14 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

But it likely would have come with a gimmick deemed problematic in 2022, be he some kind of African Gary Hart found on a world tour or some gang member from Halsted Street in Chicago. 

Sure, but Ahmed ended up feuding with a bunch of Black Nationalist caricatures in 1997 anyway. Such is the pro wrestling business.

Also, I would have been a sucker for Ahmed's gimmick being a dude who ran with Gary Hart on the streets of Chicago and helped unite the black and white gangs to run the Chicago underworld. Regressive? Yeah, but also entertaining enough for me to just go with it.

Edited December 27, 2022 by SirSmellingtonofCascadia

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

I think, at best, Ahmed gets the Sid treatment and fades out by mid-1998 instead of mid-1997 like Sid did. His accent was too thick to cut the longer promos and skits that the company moved toward.

Ahmed was maybe ten years too late because that type of physical charisma, paired with a manager who could talk for him, would have been unstoppable. Stick Ahmed with Gary Hart and watch the magic happen (and the face turn when Hart eventually pisses off Ahmed would be flames, though I don't know who you'd get to talk for him as a face manager).

I don't think Sid faded as much as he no longer had the luxury to continue to freely bounce around from #1 promotion to #2 promotion and back again. I don't think anyone has had the success that Sid had from the his initial WCW run with the Skyscrapers to his final run with WCW. Hell, had he not gotten seriously injured in 2001, whose to say he wouldn't have been in the Invasion angle? This motherfucker fell up his entire career. Guys would love to have that type of career especially for his level of in ring talent.

46 minutes ago, SirSmellingtonofCascadia said:

Sure, but Ahmed ended up feuding with a bunch of Black Nationalist caricatures in 1997 anyway. Such is the pro wrestling business.

Also, I would have been a sucker for Ahmed's gimmick being a dude who ran with Gary Hart on the streets of Chicago and helped unite the black and white gangs to run the Chicago underworld. Regressive? Yeah, but also entertaining enough for me to just go with it.

Even though they ultimately went back to the islander savage thing with Umaga, yeah you cannot do Kamala Redux. However, going back to the awfulness of WWF in 1995, I wonder where they would have went with the Making a Difference Fatu thing. Along with Bradshaw, Holly, the real double JJ/ the future Road Dogg, Scott Taylor, and a few other guys, Fatu is one of the guys they kept because they liked him so much and well obviously his family's connection with WWF. However, at the beginning before they made him just another goofy gimmick, I thought they were go a more serious route and actually try to do something where Fatu has to actually confront some of his family members who still run in the streets, do various unsavory things, and touch on various subjects that WWF had never really delved into. Then, I think about how the Ahmed/Ron Simmons thing played out. You had some of the elements that worked just because there was natural chemistry there between the two performers but you have a bunch of whites dudes in their mid 30s to mid 50s in charge of creative who only can think in the aspect of "well, they have to call each other Uncle Tom cause I saw it on Donahue a few years ago". In addition, it's a group of guys who come from the territories who believe you have to go for all the heat in the world because we need something that creates some headlines. I don't think certain ideas for angles and storylines are problematic as much as the mentality of if we do touch on a serious issue such as race it has to be from zero to 60 cause it's pro wrestling and pro wrestling has to be over the top.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Yeah, you really can’t touch on serious topics in a modern pro wrestling episode. Pro wrestling is Real Housewives, not season one Real World.

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[odessasteps]

Presumably any attempt to deal with a serious topic on wrestling show would just get bad press from  one side of the aisle or the other and a concerned phone call from a sponsor and/or the network. 

[cwoy2j]

57 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

 Along with Bradshaw, Holly, the real double JJ/ the future Road Dogg, Scott Taylor, and a few other guys, Fatu is one of the guys they kept because they liked him so much and well obviously his family's connection with WWF. However, at the beginning before they made him just another goofy gimmick, I thought they were go a more serious route and actually try to do something where Fatu has to actually confront some of his family members who still run in the streets, do various unsavory things, and touch on various subjects that WWF had never really delved into. 

I vaguely remember hearing that the Samoan Gangsta Party were going to be involved in the whole Fatu deal at some point but it never came to fruition. I don't know how serious that was as it could've been one of those "Yokozuna in the Hart Foundation" things where it made sense on a few levels so people ran with it as a rumor but it just never came together.

[cwoy2j]

18 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

2. If I am Tony Norris and I am in the industry where a black man would have good cause to have serious mistrust for the business, the FIRST person I am making friends with IS Ron Simmons. I am not trying to get on his bad side. Moreover, I am learning how to improve on my craft and learning how to cut promos. In that era, where WWF really needed stars, I think they started signing everyone who had ONE good quality and where willing to take a wait and see approach with the rest. I mean they gave a shot to Terry Gordy after the plane incident where he was never the same again. With that in mind, he had a GOLDEN opportunity to be the first black star of that era and IMO the next Junkyard Dog. Coming off a horrific 1995 where there were only a handful of bright spots, he could have walked into the proverbial endzone and been one of the top guys heading into the next era with Austin/Rock and then Austin/Rock/HHH and sometimes Foley.

I can't remember if it was D'Lo or Godfather but one of them said that Simmons tried to mentor Ahmed but he (Ahmed) just wouldn't listen. They said Simmons told him something like, "listen man, they're literally trying to give you money and basically begging you to take it! Do you know how many other blacks who've been in this business would kill for that?" Basically trying to get him to stop being hard headed and appreciate his spot but obviously that never took. Ahmed has only been in the business for a couple of years at that point so when you think about it like that, the amount of push he got was crazy.

Edited December 27, 2022 by cwoy2j

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

4 hours ago, Dolfan in NYC said:

He definitely appeared in the commercials, but of course, "Card Subject To Change".  

They did get Bray's first match since his return though.

See that’s where I had no idea. I live in NY, but I only get commercials for Binghamton and Syracuse shows. Or Wilkes-Barre when they go to PA.

I noticed the video you posted that’s why I mentioned Jinder. I see they still got it better than Columbus being down Becky, Seth, Alexa, and Lashley.