December 2022 Wrestling Discussion

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

Watching more 1998 WCW. 

Is it just me or are we sleeping on how much better the overall standard of bumping has got in the past 20 years? So many bumps that are just garden variety today - catching guys on dives, the clothesline to the outside, top rope dive/attack on prone opponent. These all wall to wall look like shit here and it stands out in a big way.

[Elsalvajeloco]

14 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

Watching more 1998 WCW. 

Is it just me or are we sleeping on how much better the overall standard of bumping has got in the past 20 years? So many bumps that are just garden variety today - catching guys on dives, the clothesline to the outside, top rope dive/attack on prone opponent. These all wall to wall look like shit here and it stands out in a big way.

I think a lot of that has to do with a good portion of those wrestlers being trained by old school guys whose philosophy was to leave your feet very rarely. In 1998, by then the crowd had been trained to watch for run-ins so the crowd usually wasn't paying attention to the match and looking at the entrance way instead. If you had a 5 minute schmoz, everyone goes into autopilot. You will notice it gets progressively worse from 1997 to 1999.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Watching 98 WCW too. Spring Stampede week, and aftermath. 

Why the hell did WCW stop booking luchador trios matches? Super Calo, La Parka, and Psychosis cannot work a proper in-ring singles match these people understand without Rey Mysterio guiding them. 
 

Goldberg Vs. Raven is still an amazing well worked match. Raven had been doing similar stuff with The Flock prior to that. This was the groups crowning achievement with all the run-ins into bumps. Another notable thing about the match that never crossed my mind before was that Goldberg doesn’t throw punches. His comeback is usually just countering a guys attack with a big slam, and when he’s in control he’s just tossing them. Rookie monster faces take notes.

Edited December 26, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[cwoy2j]

Just now, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Watching 98 WCW too. Spring Stampede week, and aftermath. 

Why the hell did WCW stop booking luchador trios matches? Super Calo, La Parka, and Psychosis cannot work a proper in-ring singles match these people understand without Rey Mysterio guiding them. 
 

Goldberg Vs. Raven is still an amazing well worked match. Raven had been doing similar stuff with The Flock prior to that. This was the groups crowning achievement with all the run-ins into bumps.

I've said it here many times and I'll say it again, Goldberg/Raven is probably the best sub-10 minute match ever. They hit every story beat perfectly and gave the fans exactly what they wanted. Packed a shit ton of storytelling into about 10 minutes of entrances and bell to bell time. Probably Goldberg's best match other than the match with DDP at Halloween Havoc or one of his matches with Scott Steiner. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I think the Jerry Flynn matches deserved to be added in to Goldberg’s best. Those are were he started to incorporate the Pancrase stuff into his move-set.

[Elsalvajeloco]

About a month before that, Goldberg murders Lodi on the Spring Break episode of Nitro and destroys everyone in the flock not named Raven or Saturn. The fans were clearly ready for him to take the next step.

IMO I think it's funny that if you built an entire stable from the ground up in what? 9 or 10 months? Only for them to just get destroyed thoroughly by one guy with ZERO help from anyone else, then that's considered burying the talent and making them seem like jobbers. In actuality, if you have a midcard stable that in no way has anyone that can elevate it above that and you have a supernova star, why not make that one person in one night and let him take down everyone? It's the inverse of what happened to the Four Horsemen where the group was thoroughly over and everyone is made to look like fools by just random folks.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

Raven explains it extremely well in interviews. He basically called The Flock a traveling battle royale. Every spot they do when interfering in any match usually ends up with them taking nasty bumps. It’s almost like clockwork. Kidman is the centerpiece for the biggest bumps, and Sick Boy was the master of the Springbboard Nothing.

[Cobra Commander]

IIRC, the ECW Flock was pretty transient aside from Raven and Richards too? so guys would join up to have something to do and people would leave and set up feuds as a result

The WCW Flock managed to get Saturn and Kidman into spots to do something in WCW post-Flock.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

But only Saturn was allowed to win matches. Everybody else lost. So it was a toss whether they’d do anything with the others. Kidman’s came out of nowhere.

I believe it might’ve been said that Saturn, Kidman, Hammer, Sickboy, and Horus were all guys Raven did not actually want on his Flock. But it was ultimately the a WCW office decision. They ultimately did exactly what needed to be done in my eyes. Van Hammer, and Horus might’ve been the only pieces that I felt were unnecessary. Horus though as said by Raven was more like a nice little favor to Hogan to get under his good graces, in case. It didn’t do much for him(Raven) in the end.

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Elsalvajeloco]

10 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

But only Saturn was allowed to win matches. Everybody else lost. I believe it might’ve been said that Saturn, Kidman, Hammer, Sickboy, and Horus were all guys Raven did not actually want on his Flock. But it was ultimately the a WCW office decision. They ultimately did exactly what needed to be done in my eyes. Van Hammer, and Horus might’ve been the only pieces that I felt were unnecessary. Horus though as said by Raven was more like a nice little favor to Hogan to get under his good graces, in case. It didn’t do much for him(Raven) in the end.

It kills me everytime I go on like wrestlingdata.com or like prowrestling.fandom.com and see Sick Boy listed in the dark matches results on like a WWF show post WCW closure. 

I didn't see much in Sick Boy enough to garner multiple WWF tryout matches.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

He had a completely different, and Star quality look after The Flock. But yeah he never got past rookie quality, and never figured out what to do after doing a springboard. 
 

Still is apparently 6’5”, he could do springboards, and was still very young. If he needed 15 years, then so be it. He had potential. I guess it wasn’t worth it to him to continue a consistent path, or really improve his craft. He’s off and on, on a lot of his resume. A guy his size on the indies could have been a star somewhere, and probably given a 2nd look, or a spot in Japan during the late 00’s resurgence.

 

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Elsalvajeloco]

4 minutes ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

He had a completely different, and Star quality look after The Flock. But yeah he never got past rookie quality, and never figured out what to do after doing a springboard. 
 

Still is apparently 6’5”, he could do springboards, and was still very young. If he needed 15 years, then so be it. He had potential. I guess it wasn’t worth to him to continue. 
 

Edit: Oh shit, he did keep going. I guess he was never good enough.

Part of the issue is outside of Goldberg and maybe a few other guys, most of the Power Plant guys seem to fall into the category of perhaps a bunch of WWE PC talents have probably fallen into: super athletic but not competent enough in the ring. Even with Goldberg, honestly, it's grading on a serious curve cause he was too unpredictable in the ring. Bill's super lucky he never tore an Achilles or tore an ACL with some of the shit he seemed to be freestyling while doing a rolling kneebar/leglock or leaping back up to his feet after a no sell or going full bore into a spear. Without Goldberg, that success to failure ratio for the Power Plant looks even worse.

When he got released by WCW, he probably should went somewhere else and THEN tried his hand at WWE. I mean ECW had PN News in for a run with The Baldies. They would have taken Sick Boy.

[odessasteps]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

In 1998, by then the crowd had been trained to watch for run-ins so the crowd usually wasn't paying attention to the match and looking at the entrance way instead. If you had a 5 minute schmoz, everyone goes into autopilot. You will notice it gets progressively worse from 1997 to 1999.

I think its usually accepted that started in JCP when all the Dusty finishes conditioned the fans not to expect a clean finish. 

[LoneWolf&Subs]

I think WWF/E got super lucky they ended up scouting a ton of sports athletes that somehow convert perfectly into the system like Brock, Angle, Shelton, etc. These new guys, and the Power Plant back in the day are like the Wheel of Pain. You’d be lucky to get a Cimmerian out of that wheel from the talent pool.

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[Elsalvajeloco]

On 12/26/2022 at 6:55 PM, odessasteps said:

I think its usually accepted that started in JCP when all the Dusty finishes conditioned the fans not to expect a clean finish. 

The funny thing is that by the time Nitro started, outside of the goofy Hogan/Dungeon of Doom/Four Horsemen triangle saga or the never-ending Sherri/Colonel Parker stuff, they did a good amount of trying to condition the fans the expect decisive finishes. If they did give you a fuck finish, it wasn't exactly 5 guys hauling ass down to the ring and not every other match. I think there was too much thought of not having the fans click over. I understand Bischoff's reasoning of having the fans not being able to predict what's going to happen next, but once the run-in becomes predictable, then it's way too many.  That and the overreliance on long extended beatdowns. For example, Warrior's last WCW appearance was perhaps the most bizarre thing I've ever seen (for Warrior, that's saying something). Warrior comes out to make the save for someone, the NWO beats him down for what seems like forever, Warrior doesn't exactly know how to sell it, they pitch to the commercial break and do a wide crowd shot, and you can see Warrior faintly in the middle ring pop up after a 6 minute beatdown like nothing happened. Commentators don't mention it, and we just go to break. Like it never happened. You would think you're on a hallucinogen based on what you just saw. If I am in the Gorilla position (or the Jody position as it was called in WCW), I am having a come to Jesus meeting with the entire creative team on how we can reel this back in. 

On 12/26/2022 at 7:00 PM, LoneWolf&Subs said:

I think WWF/E got super lucky they ended up scouting a ton of sports athletes that somehow convert perfectly into the system like Brock, Angle, Shelton, etc. These new guys, and the Power Plant back in the day are like the Wheel of Pain. You’d be lucky to get a Cimmerian out of that wheel from the talent pool.

Well, people weren't confined to just purely that system. That and they placed a lot of faith in Danny Davis, Les Thatcher, Dr. Tom Prichard, Dory Funk Jr., Jesse Hernandez/Rick Bassman in Southern California, etc. to get those guys over the hump and develop them. Plus, it's a lot different when it's 10 people versus maybe up to 60-75 people that you have to be accountable for. Yes, there were more than 10 people in developmental back in the heyday. However, they knew who ALL the blue chip guys were. Now? It's the scratch off lottery tickets.

[Cobra Commander]

I've been reading the Jeff Pearlman book on Bo Jackson and it mentioned that he was on the High School Wrestling team for a time, picking up wins by forfeit because competing schools didn't have heavyweights, and then his wrestling win streak ended with him refusing to face a 300lb heavyweight from another school and forfeiting.

The book mentioned that Bo tried wrestling in Jr High but was disillusioned that slamming a kid was a disqualification. Not sure how much Gulas regularly ran in Birmingham in the mid/late-70s so who knows which wrestler inspired Bo Jackson there.

As weird as this might sound, Ahmed Johnson might be the closest to a Bo Jackson.. meaning he was freak of nature wrestler that had problems with injuries. Although Ahmed didn't get to as high of a level by summer 1996 when he had his first big injury.

[odessasteps]

There’s also the brief wrestling career of Marcus Dupree. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

1 hour ago, LoneWolf&Subs said:

Watching 98 WCW too. Spring Stampede week, and aftermath. 

Why the hell did WCW stop booking luchador trios matches? Super Calo, La Parka, and Psychosis cannot work a proper in-ring singles match these people understand without Rey Mysterio guiding them. 
 

Goldberg Vs. Raven is still an amazing well worked match. Raven had been doing similar stuff with The Flock prior to that. This was the groups crowning achievement with all the run-ins into bumps. Another notable thing about the match that never crossed my mind before was that Goldberg doesn’t throw punches. His comeback is usually just countering a guys attack with a big slam, and when he’s in control he’s just tossing them. Rookie monster faces take notes.

I'm in February. I finally got around to a DDP vs Benoit US title match that was on a Thunder, that I only ever knew about from a PWI magazine that talked about how the Flock sabotaged the match by putting a smoke machine under the ring.

It's weirdly smoky in the arena, but the angle is never once referenced on the show at all. It's a really good match too, DDP keeps up with Benoit move for move. Hitting the Diamond Cutter on a Sick Boy springboard was one of the first real high spots out of nowhere aspects of the move.

[Cobra Commander]

The book mentions Dupree, since they were in HS at the same time to contrast the recruitment pushes for them both and how people interpreted Bo not liking to practice/lift weights/talk to coaches/etc. Bo's 17 months older than Dupree but was held back a year so he graduated high school at 19.

Bo ended up saying he wasn't leaving Alabama so his recruitment process became a bit more subdued than what Dupree did.

Then his number one choice (Alabama) pretty much pushed him towards Auburn. Hopefully it's not a spoiler to mention the people talking about how Bear Bryant spelled like alcohol and that recruits figured they'd have a better chance of playing at Auburn.

[Elsalvajeloco]

23 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

I've been reading the Jeff Pearlman book on Bo Jackson and it mentioned that he was on the High School Wrestling team for a time, picking up wins by forfeit because competing schools didn't have heavyweights, and then his wrestling win streak ended with him refusing to face a 300lb heavyweight from another school and forfeiting.

The book mentioned that Bo tried wrestling in Jr High but was disillusioned that slamming a kid was a disqualification. Not sure how much Gulas regularly ran in Birmingham in the mid/late-70s so who knows which wrestler inspired Bo Jackson there.

As weird as this might sound, Ahmed Johnson might be the closest to a Bo Jackson.. meaning he was freak of nature wrestler that had problems with injuries. Although Ahmed didn't get to as high of a level by summer 1996 when he had his first big injury.

Not too long ago, I saw 1 or 2 matches of Ahmed in Global. Here is where the setting yourself up for failure comes into play for both WWF and Tony Norris himself:

1. Even though he was a heel in Global, he clearly has that "Oh shit, this guy is a fucking wrecking ball" unique physical charisma that you only get but so often. I think that's sort of missing with Wardlow for example. However, I think 9 out of 10 times it's innate. Problem is though, in Ahmed's case, he couldn't work. If I'm WWF, I would sign the guy on the condition he go to USWA for no less than a year and put him with some of those guys I listed above to get some of that under control. Plus, I put a stipulation in there saying he has to stay within a certain weight range. After two or three injuries in WWF, he blew up in size and just looked like anything on his body could go at anytime.

2. If I am Tony Norris and I am in the industry where a black man would have good cause to have serious mistrust for the business, the FIRST person I am making friends with IS Ron Simmons. I am not trying to get on his bad side. Moreover, I am learning how to improve on my craft and learning how to cut promos. In that era, where WWF really needed stars, I think they started signing everyone who had ONE good quality and where willing to take a wait and see approach with the rest. I mean they gave a shot to Terry Gordy after the plane incident where he was never the same again. With that in mind, he had a GOLDEN opportunity to be the first black star of that era and IMO the next Junkyard Dog. Coming off a horrific 1995 where there were only a handful of bright spots, he could have walked into the proverbial endzone and been one of the top guys heading into the next era with Austin/Rock and then Austin/Rock/HHH and sometimes Foley.

[LoneWolf&Subs]

6 minutes ago, GuerrillaMonsoon said:

I'm in February. I finally got around to a DDP vs Benoit US title match that was on a Thunder, that I only ever knew about from a PWI magazine that talked about how the Flock sabotaged the match by putting a smoke machine under the ring.

It's weirdly smoky in the arena, but the angle is never once referenced on the show at all. It's a really good match too, DDP keeps up with Benoit move for move. Hitting the Diamond Cutter on a Sick Boy springboard was one of the first real high spots out of nowhere aspects of the move.

Oh I might need to check that out. I’ve been skipping Thunder. But I do know that DDP, and Raven feud were relegated Thunder a lot. That’s been a blind spot on rewatches.

Edited December 27, 2022 by LoneWolf&Subs

[odessasteps]

This reminds me of the discussion we had about what if Karl Malone or Barkley had gone into the rasslin. 

[Pedro]

14 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Not too long ago, I saw 1 or 2 matches of Ahmed in Global. Here is where the setting yourself up for failure comes into play for both WWF and Tony Norris himself:

1. Even though he was a heel in Global, he clearly has that "Oh shit, this guy is a fucking wrecking ball" unique physical charisma that you only get but so often. I think that's sort of missing with Wardlow for example. However, I think 9 out of 10 times it's innate. Problem is though, in Ahmed's case, he couldn't work. If I'm WWF, I would sign the guy on the condition he go to USWA for no less than a year and put him with some of those guys I listed above to get some of that under control. Plus, I put a stipulation in there saying he has to stay within a certain weight range. After two or three injuries in WWF, he blew up in size and just looked like anything on his body could go at anytime.

2. If I am Tony Norris and I am in the industry where a black man would have good cause to have serious mistrust for the business, the FIRST person I am making friends with IS Ron Simmons. I am not trying to get on his bad side. Moreover, I am learning how to improve on my craft and learning how to cut promos. In that era, where WWF really needed stars, I think they started signing everyone who had ONE good quality and where willing to take a wait and see approach with the rest. I mean they gave a shot to Terry Gordy after the plane incident where he was never the same again. With that in mind, he had a GOLDEN opportunity to be the first black star of that era and IMO the next Junkyard Dog. Coming off a horrific 1995 where there were only a handful of bright spots, he could have walked into the proverbial endzone and been one of the top guys heading into the next era with Austin/Rock and then Austin/Rock/HHH and sometimes Foley.

Didn't he go to USWA for awhile though? I never really watched much USWA but I did read all the Apter mags during that time. Moadib was a beast in GWF/

 

Yes!  I agree on the Simmons comment. Ron would have been a great mentor to Tony had Tony wanted to listen and behave. 

[Elsalvajeloco]

7 minutes ago, Pedro said:

Didn't he go to USWA for awhile though? I never really watched much USWA but I did read all the Apter mags during that time. Moadib was a beast in GWF/

 

Yes!  I agree on the Simmons comment. Ron would have been a great mentor to Tony had Tony wanted to listen and behave. 

He had a few matches in USWA but he was already in WWF by then. He won the USWA heavyweight title and did a couple matches with Lawler and Jesse James.

[Elsalvajeloco]

19 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

This reminds me of the discussion we had about what if Karl Malone or Barkley had gone into the rasslin. 

I think Barkley would have sucked as a wrestler, but it's killing me that he shows up randomly in the WCW hype videos in the lead up for Flair vs. Vader at Starrcade 1993. Then, he shows up on a Nitro in 1995 with Flair when they're at the America West Arena. Maybe it's just the knowing Flair part, but he's clearly enjoying himself.