The Wall Street Journal Vince McMahon Thread.

[TimLivingston]

There’s an implicit bias with so much here in this thread because we all are in the camp of how horrible it is this happened, and so the tendencies are to bristle at any notion that anyone who worked closely with Vince or with him for a long time HAD to know something given what info we had at our disposal through the sheets or retconning past promos, etc. about his proclivities. This goes way past it and trying to Pepe Silvia shit together when there’s actual good work being done to uncover things doesn’t really do any good. 
 

Especially considering this is the first of many civil lawsuits, which will in turn became many criminal lawsuits, which will lead to a string of convictions that, just even based on the initial wording of Grant’s lawsuit, seem to prelude what is more than likely the most impactful thing to ever happen to the business. 

[Curt McGirt]

2 hours ago, Infinit said:

I'm sure few of the men in the company would be exposed to "that side" of Vince.

That's under the impression that Vince hasn't abused members of the same sex, which I believe is not only possible but likely, considering the people he's had work for him. According to Sabu the entire early '80s ring crew were young boys hired specifically for that reason. 

[(BP)]

Let’s get real, there’s a history of sexual sadism inside all-male locker rooms in sports in general, and it’s been notoriously bad in wrestling. Because it’s ultimately about power, the “ribs” like the eyebrow shaving seemed to overlap to the women who were abused while the sexual abuse aspects were often present in the ribs on the men.

[Sublime]

Monster like Vince don’t usually flaunt their deeds to everyone, they will look for those who share their “interests” and show themselves more to those like if the lawsuit is 100% true Vince did with people like Brock and Johnny Ace. It is very possible the majority of the locker room was not majorly in the know of nearly the full extent of the disgusting truth of what Vince is. These types of people stay hidden for a long time not just because of NDAs and people looking the other way but because these types of monsters know how to hide 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

That's under the impression that Vince hasn't abused members of the same sex, which I believe is not only possible but likely, considering the people he's had work for him. According to Sabu the entire early '80s ring crew were young boys hired specifically for that reason. 

[The Natural]

Previously unreleased statement by Ashley Massaro to Vice News. It's hard to read knowing what happened to Ashley Massaro and taking her own life so here's a warning:

"During my time with the WWE, I had observed Vince McMahon making-out with other divas in the locker room, but he never paid attention to me, and I assumed I was not his type. This changed after my Playboy cover was released. I was fortunate enough to be allowed to fly on the company jet and stay at the same hotels as the executives for a period of time so that I could get home faster to spend more time with my daughter. On one of these occasions, Vince was attempting to get me alone with him in his hotel room late at night and I felt extraordinarily uncomfortable. He began calling the hotel room phone and my cell phone nonstop. I called Kevin Dunn to explain the situation and he said I should tell Vince I was not feeling well and would see him on TV the next day, so I did. Immediately after that night, Vince started writing my promos for me. Vince does not write promos for female wrestlers—that is the job of the creative department—and he certainly wouldn’t have, under any normal circumstances, written a promo for me. But he did, and the promos were written with the clear intention of ruining my career. I brought the first script Vince wrote for me to the WWE employee in charge of Creative at the time, Michael Hayes, and he said, ‘you’re not saying this, who the [expletive] wrote this?’ and I told him that Vince did. He said, ‘Well kid, these are the breaks,’ meaning that Vince wanted to end my career and destroy my reputation on my way out. He is known for this type of behavior and also did this to [REDACTED] upon her departure from WWE. In addition, after that night, each time I walk by him he would make vulgar sexual comments that were clearly designed to make me uncomfortable."

Edited February 9 by The Natural

[odessasteps]

2 hours ago, (BP) said:

Let’s get real, there’s a history of sexual sadism inside all-male locker rooms in sports in general, and it’s been notoriously bad in wrestling. Because it’s ultimately about power, the “ribs” like the eyebrow shaving seemed to overlap to the women who were abused while the sexual abuse aspects were often present in the ribs on the men.

Look at current ongoing investigation of Team Canada junior hockey mess.

[odessasteps]

4 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

People like Cornette (probably others of his generation and before) use 2000 as this year of delineation or demarcation of the business changing. However, folks have to realize that was a quarter century ago. I would say between 1995-2015, if you got into the business then, you're probably smart to just about everything that went on with not only Vince but most of the stories surrounding everyone. A lot of these folks are huge wrestling nerds. Hell, I think most of them probably got their info without even subscribing to the dirt sheets. Now yes, if pro wrestling wasn't your first option and you just started following wrestling within the last five years, you probably don't know much about wrestling at all. However, that's a very, very small percentage. Either way, that doesn't really apply to Seth cause he's been around for a hot minute. 

I wonder if there are younger people who ever bothered with reading the sheets since they grew up with most everything in the Observer was posted online. Either on News Sitez or message boards. 

[piranesi]

Quote

‘Well kid, these are the breaks,’

scumbags every single one. Disgraces.

No one should have a single bit of respect for anyone who is 1) wealthy enough to leave 2) has daughters of their own 3) brands themselves as some great hero to kids and an icon of "hard work" but still stays to milk a little extra money out of this sick company or to keep their platform in place so they can promote their next big brand move in their precious "career."

It's not a career anymore.  Dwayne, at this point you're just a rich cowardly weakling and your "brand" is just a lure for more prey and a distraction.

Nice work if you can get it. But be careful. If yo buy into the dream you might just end up on the wrong side of "the breaks."

 

 

Edited February 9 by piranesi

[Elsalvajeloco]

17 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I wonder if there are younger people who ever bothered with reading the sheets since they grew up with most everything in the Observer was posted online. Either on News Sitez or message boards. 

Depends what you consider as younger. I am pretty sure there are a bunch of millennials who went down the internet rabbit hole (especially when you're getting those only started watching during the Attitude Era/Ruthless Aggression period) and somehow ended up subscribing. Gen Z? No, especially with Dave being in his mid 60s and Alvarez basically being 50 years old. There is a clear generation gap. 

[RazorbladeKiss87]

1 minute ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Depends what you consider as younger. I am pretty sure there are a bunch of millennials who went down the internet rabbit hole (especially when you're getting those only started watching during the Attitude Era/Ruthless Aggression) and somehow ended up subscribing. Gen Z? No, especially with Dave being in his mid 60s and Alvarez basically being 50 years old. There is a clear generation gap. 

I started seriously watching in 1997 at age ten. I was casual before then but seeing The Giant chokeslam someone on a random Saturday Night got me to stop flipping channels. I was an internet newz site fan and discovered the Observer in like 99. Joined here not long after and got in trouble for trolling Mike Sweetser so I went to CZWFANS for a bit but eventually came back. Long way to say, yeah I did that and I know others my age who did.

[piranesi]

4 minutes ago, RazorbladeKiss87 said:

I started seriously watching in 1997 at age ten. I was casual before then but seeing The Giant chokeslam someone on a random Saturday Night got me to stop flipping channels. I was an internet newz site fan and discovered the Observer in like 99. Joined here not long after and got in trouble for trolling Mike Sweetser so I went to CZWFANS for a bit but eventually came back. Long way to say, yeah I did that and I know others my age who did.

I only got back into wrestling around that same time (1998 or so) as an adult. And it was 100% Mankind that did it.

And that's why I can't seem to just shake this loose and why I see it as different than abuse in the military, in the film industry, or any other. I didn't follow or have any part in any of that. But like I "know" Mick Foley (not "know him" know him but you know I read his book . i watched the docs. on him. I held him up as an inspirational story). And yeah, he already is implicated in some various shady shit and whtiewashing of nasty stuff over the years and just being a company shill. And that's my culpability and another reason I can't like shake loose from this story.

I could've disowned him as a sycophant and follower and apologist for some of the most sadistic people to every work in entertainment 20 years ago. but I didn't because none of that stuff was "bad enough" for me to be bothered with having to rethink my enjoyment. It took a lot I guess.

This clearly is. bad enough. But so many workers in that company, some that don't need that work at all to just live a decent life and raise their families, are like "Well, seems like this much might blow over. No ones really pressuring me yet. But hey, If more bad stuff comes out, then I might have to make a move. But I don't HAVE to yet...."

In other words this story is only "bad enough" if some outside market force tells them so...and that's kind of fucking gross. This is clearly bad enough. But they will smile right through it until someone else (the media, the public, stock people, The DOJ???) decide that it can't be whitewashed and THEN they'll stand tall!

They're not the band playing on while the titanic sinks to soother the other doomed souls. they're just not that bothered with any of this, I guess. And a lot of them knew deep down that this shit was happening and just buried. And I can understand that. I did too and I had a hell of lot less of a direct economic stake in it. But this is bad enough. Anyone who doesn't see that is...just kind of lost for good.

[odessasteps]

18 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Depends what you consider as younger. I am pretty sure there are a bunch of millennials who went down the internet rabbit hole (especially when you're getting those only started watching during the Attitude Era/Ruthless Aggression period) and somehow ended up subscribing. Gen Z? No, especially with Dave being in his mid 60s and Alvarez basically being 50 years old. There is a clear generation gap. 

From the outside and in hindsight, I just wonder how many fans that were getting their news for free online would pay to subscribe to the original source? I guess the line becomes blurred once Dave and Bryan merge the websites. Andihad forgotten about the Eyada years when you could Dave everyday for free IIRC. 
 

as someone with no kids or sibilings either at the start of the internet age or now, I have no daily knowledge of how younger people consume their wrestling news (or real news).

[Technico Support]

18 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Michael may be dumb enough to say what he did to Mark Henry but he's smart enough to keep his shoot talk to the Territories show.

Dumb enough from a "don't say racist shit" perspective? Sure.

Dumb enough from a "you'll get your ass kicked" perspective?  Nope.  This hillbilly used the N word to Henry's face and Henry didn't do shit.  Mark Henry ain't shit and, in later years, only existed to back the company in public whenever a black wrestler was getting uppity.

[Elsalvajeloco]

Outsides of stories like this obviously (which as Greggulator has already pointed out can/should be covered by actual journalists at this point) and stuff here and there, if you're just a WWE fan, what are you really looking for? Twitter and Instagram is gonna be your fix cause there isn't much that will fall between the cracks. Now if you want to expand your horizons, then you will need to dig a little further like everyone else did.

Remember when WWE wanted to break their own news? Well by basically being much more social media friendly, they've pretty much done that. The problem is someone has to carry the weight for everything that's not a work or worked shoot adjacent (i.e. legit injuries worked into beatdowns etc.). 

If Endeavor era WWE is half as newsworthy as some of the stories between the Zahorian stuff to when the wrestlers got named in the steroid list several years back where there is something major almost EVERY week, then it's going to be very intriguing how pro wrestling continues to be covered. Meltzer and all those guys could get away with their journalism back then cause pro wrestling was basically Ringling Bros. with some wild west shit thrown in. You cannot cover this version of WWE (and honestly, AEW, New Japan, TNA, CMLL, etc.) like that. That's why that style of journalism (if we're being nice and grading on a serious curve) feels so antiquated. 

[The Comedian]

3 hours ago, The Natural said:

Previously unreleased statement by Ashley Massaro to Vice News. It's hard to read knowing what happened to Ashley Massaro and taking her own life so here's a warning:

"During my time with the WWE, I had observed Vince McMahon making-out with other divas in the locker room, but he never paid attention to me, and I assumed I was not his type. This changed after my Playboy cover was released. I was fortunate enough to be allowed to fly on the company jet and stay at the same hotels as the executives for a period of time so that I could get home faster to spend more time with my daughter. On one of these occasions, Vince was attempting to get me alone with him in his hotel room late at night and I felt extraordinarily uncomfortable. He began calling the hotel room phone and my cell phone nonstop. I called Kevin Dunn to explain the situation and he said I should tell Vince I was not feeling well and would see him on TV the next day, so I did. Immediately after that night, Vince started writing my promos for me. Vince does not write promos for female wrestlers—that is the job of the creative department—and he certainly wouldn’t have, under any normal circumstances, written a promo for me. But he did, and the promos were written with the clear intention of ruining my career. I brought the first script Vince wrote for me to the WWE employee in charge of Creative at the time, Michael Hayes, and he said, ‘you’re not saying this, who the [expletive] wrote this?’ and I told him that Vince did. He said, ‘Well kid, these are the breaks,’ meaning that Vince wanted to end my career and destroy my reputation on my way out. He is known for this type of behavior and also did this to [REDACTED] upon her departure from WWE. In addition, after that night, each time I walk by him he would make vulgar sexual comments that were clearly designed to make me uncomfortable."

Kevin Dunn - not quite as bad as we thought? 

[odessasteps]

1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Outsides of stories like this obviously (which as Greggulator has already pointed out can/should be covered by actual journalists at this point) and stuff here and there, if you're just a WWE fan, what are you really looking for? Twitter and Instagram is gonna be your fix cause there isn't much that will fall between the cracks. Now if you want to expand your horizons, then you will need to dig a little further like everyone else did.

Remember when WWE wanted to break their own news? Well by basically being much more social media friendly, they've pretty much done that. The problem is someone has to carry the weight for everything that's not a work or worked shoot adjacent (i.e. legit injuries worked into beatdowns etc.). 

If Endeavor era WWE is half as newsworthy as some of the stories between the Zahorian stuff to when the wrestlers got named in the steroid list several years back where there is something major almost EVERY week, then it's going to be very intriguing how pro wrestling continues to be covered. Meltzer and all those guys could get away with their journalism back then cause pro wrestling was basically Ringling Bros. with some wild west shit thrown in. You cannot cover this version of WWE (and honestly, AEW, New Japan, TNA, CMLL, etc.) like that. That's why that style of journalism (if we're being nice and grading on a serious curve) feels so antiquated. 

And in the old days, you had the “respected journalist” referring to people as Junkfood Dog and Anabolic Warrior. 
 

glad my “wrestling journalism” was mainly limited to being a columnist, which gave you a little more creative freedom than being a reporter. And I’m sure there’s plenty of cringe worthy columns out there. Glad to be a non-practicing journalist in 2024.

[TimLivingston]

It’s all cringe. What none of these reporters understand is they’re always getting worked, and if they say they aren’t it’s because they’ve been convincing themselves of it through self-fulfillment. And they present as fact because of “sourcing” but all the sources work you to some degree.

To trust anyone on these sites when the fucking Wall Street Journal is sourcing things out properly is like choosing McDonalds when the actual handmade burger spot is across the street and then saying, “That Big Mac is a real burger, I’ll tell you what.”

Edited February 10 by TimLivingston

[odessasteps]

This company. 

[tbarrie]

3 hours ago, odessasteps said:

I wonder if there are younger people who ever bothered with reading the sheets since they grew up with most everything in the Observer was posted online. Either on News Sitez or message boards. 

To echo Elsalvajeloco, what do you consider "younger"? I just turned fifty and that describes me pretty well.

[odessasteps]

I was thinking people who grew up when the internet/WWW was already part of their lives.  So, probably people born in the mid 1980s and later. 

[piranesi]

Some of us when we hit our 70s and 80s are going to be sat down and given a stern talking to, and possibly heavy medication, by our grandkids over the shit we used to watch.

[odessasteps]

But by then, all the content providers will have locked everything away and no one under 50 will have ever seen F-Troop or Gilligan’s Island or Threes Company or Battle of the Network Stars. Unless they watched the future version of the dark web on their Vision Pro BR goggles. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

25 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

But by then, all the content providers will have locked everything away and no one under 50 will have ever seen F-Troop or Gilligan’s Island or Threes Company or Battle of the Network Stars. Unless they watched the future version of the dark web on their Vision Pro BR goggles. 

Is that a threat or a promise?

[The Natural]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nAuRBHPhOOY&t=32s&pp=ygUMZGF2ZSBtZWx0emVy