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August 2021 Wrestling Discussion


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2 hours ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I hesitate to play into any kind of camp tropes because wrestling does not have the strongest track record in doing those well. And really, I think it says a lot that people cite the best example of a LGBTQ character portrayed well is someone playing into camp tropes, except they win their matches.

Perhaps it's because people who are LGBTQ and don't play into those tropes often don't get noted as LGBTQ characters within wrestling. Frankly, I'd much rather see that. LGBTQ representation, to me, is far more important as LGBTQ people existing without having to play into what cis/hetero people think LGBTQ people are.

In that case, Darren Young? He came out as gay and nothing about his presentation changed IIRC.

Edited by kafkonia
Better wording.
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I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees here.  Someone's sexual orientation isn't a character trait.  Seriously, Hulk Hogan could be gay, and it wouldn't change the character at all.  Steve Austin could have been gay, and nothing would be different.  If the Rock would have never mentioned his affinity for poon tang pie, could have played the same character and been gayer than Liberace.  Shawn Michaels...he pretty much played a male stripper and that is about as predominantly gay of an occupation that exists.  If you expect Vince McMahon of all people to create a subtly gay character that addresses LGBTQ issues in an intelligent way, you are asking for trouble.  

Of course someone posts exactly my point while I was typing this up.

Edited by supremebve
Pointing out my bad timing
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24 minutes ago, supremebve said:

 Shawn Michaels...he pretty much played a male stripper and that is about as predominantly gay of an occupation that exists.  

I would say the male stripper thing was extremely time sensitive in terms of a gimmick just like the rap thing w/ a PN News or somebody like that. Being a male stripper/escort (or dick dancer as Ric Flair calls it) in 90-95 and even a little before that was the default gimmick if you couldn't think of anything else and had a mildly decent body. Not only did you have Shawn, you had Scotty the Body, Marcus Bagwell as The Handsome Stranger and in the American Males, Scott Hall as The Diamond Studd looking he was injecting Dianabol into his body by the gallon, Tommy Dreamer before he did the caning thing with Sandman in 94, Rick Rude, Brutus Beefcake before the Barber gimmick, etc. Then, by the mid 90s it got played out (see Bret Hart ridiculing Shawn for posing for a magazine that gay men predominantly purchase). Keep in mind, this is an era where the girls did swoon after guys like that. In the afterwards, it meant something entirely different when the matinee idol/heartthrob stuff was no more save for The Hardy Boyz. 

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25 minutes ago, supremebve said:

If the Rock would have never mentioned his affinity for poon tang pie, could have played the same character and been gayer than Liberace.

Still could have been. A lot of gay men brag about their enjoyment of that sort of thing in an attempt to pass for straight. Or he could be bi. *shrug*

It's sort of like how I used to pretend to really be into stereotypically masculine tropes to throw people off my actual interests, back when I didn't think I was really a woman since I didn't know being trans was a thing. (And, subsequently, when I did know it was a thing, I didn't know it was a thing I could be.)

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31 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Still could have been. A lot of gay men brag about their enjoyment of that sort of thing in an attempt to pass for straight. Or he could be bi. *shrug*

It's sort of like how I used to pretend to really be into stereotypically masculine tropes to throw people off my actual interests, back when I didn't think I was really a woman since I didn't know being trans was a thing. (And, subsequently, when I did know it was a thing, I didn't know it was a thing I could be.)

If The Rock's character turned out to be gay, it would actually make a whole lot of sense.  He was so over the top with the facial expressions and gestures that he wouldn't really have to tweak the character all that much if they made that change.  Speaking as an outsider, I don't believe that gay people don't really spend that much time trying to act gay.  Unless they are going to have same sex couples on screen, I don't think it ever really needs to be mentioned.  It would be different if every character had a on-screen significant other, but it rarely comes up for any character gay, straight, or otherwise.  Seriously, Shayna Baszler, Sonya Deville, Dakota Kai, are all lesbian women, and as far as I know so are their characters.  It doesn't matter if they ever bring it up on screen.  Being straight, gay, bi, or trans isn't really a performative thing, it's something you can be without ever really saying or doing anything different.

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I feel like we're minimizing the potential of a certain kind of gimmick based on the fact that prior gay gimmicks were played by and booked by people who had no clue. There are lots of gay people who embrace and feel comfortable expressing the more flamboyant and evocative side of the culture. There's nothing wrong with big, performative queerness if it's something you personally vibe with, Effy and Sonny Kiss being the first two examples in wrestling that come to mind. My bigger worry is that Vince + Co. prefer their homosexuals flaming in the worst way and lack a track record that leads me to believe they could present that kind of storyline tastefully.

Stan Hansen comes out and tells you he's got to feed his big, fat husband, then we've made progress.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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12 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Speaking as an outsider, I don't believe that gay people don't really spend that much time trying to act gay.  Unless they are going to have same sex couples on screen, I don't think it ever really needs to be mentioned.  It would be different if every character had a on-screen significant other, but it rarely comes up for any character gay, straight, or otherwise.

This is really the point I've been making. Like... I don't need to try and act queer/trans. I just am that way, so literally everything I do is "acting queer/trans". There's no cookie cutter definition of what it means to be LGBTQ because it encompasses a lot of people. Let's not act like femmes and bears would appear and act the same even though they exist under the same umbrella.

(Since I check two boxes on that LGBTQ initialism, does my opinion count twice? That just feels like gaming the system. Uh... moving on.) 

But yeah, that's really my whole point about having LGBTQ characters. It's better to just hire LGBTQ people and let them perform to the best of their capabilities, rather than say "hey, we're going to have you portray someone that's LGBTQ, dial it up to 11 on this list of tropes that cis and hetero people expect" to someone who may not fully grasp what it means. Unfortunately, far too many people think that having LGBTQ representation means either having someone act up to those tropes, or simply having the person exist and expecting their gender or sexuality to be the crux of their character.

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12 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Stan Hansen comes out and tells you he's got to feed his big, fat husband, then we've made progress.

I feel between the way Stan Hansen was dressed in No Holds Barred and the teeny wangers line, Vince probably felt he was already half way there in his warped mind.

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25 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Stan Hansen comes out and tells you he's got to feed his big, fat husband, then we've made progress.

Mike Parrow is 6'4" and 295 lbs, so WWE could totally sign him. He might still be under 30 years old - turned pro in 2010 but could have been a teenager at the time. But he'd be a good signing for WWE anyway.

I wouldn't say his husband was a fat guy exactly, but he is a decently sized dude.

Parrow_wedding_1.0.jpg

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According to cagematch, he's 39. I'd love for him to get a bigger outlet, he was in 2 of my favourite matches this year: the Last Daddy Standing match against Effy and the death match against Dimitri Alexandrov.

I haven't watched the show since it moved to Fite, but I feel like the NWA really dropped the ball with him and Odinson. I'd read the results and it seemed like they were always losing. For such a thin roster, they really should be dominating champs

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Are we really thinking there's any chance a guy whose company, in the year of our lord 2021 is booking a Asian Dragon Lady and an African running around with a spear, is able to book a tasteful homosexual gimmick?  LOOOOL zero percent chance, friends.

The absolute best they can do is hint around a gay wrestler's sexuality while removing anything overt, like they did with Jake Atlas.  Which is a somewhat offensive way of having it both ways that satisfies nobody.

Edited by Technico Support
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Watching the 2 WWE 24 on WrestleMania in Tampa was pretty much same old.   Apparently the strategy on these 24 PPV show recaps is too talk more about the wrestler's career and less on the actual event.    They talk about the weather issue on both days but not as much as I hoped for.  The thing that really surprised me was that apparently there was so much rain on the 2nd night that rather big bubbles formed on the top of the tarp above the ring.   If those things hit a strong breeze or a hard rain and popped, it would have made the bloodbath on Smackdown look like getting hit was a glass of water.

 

 

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So according to many sources, the WWE is out of the building your future on indie wrestling guys game and creating their own stars.    I am sure that will have no impact on their product in about 5 years.  

 

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3 minutes ago, hammerva said:

So according to many sources, the WWE is out of the building your future on indie wrestling guys game and creating their own stars.    I am sure that will have no impact on their product in about 5 years.  

 

On We Watch Wrestling, they compared this to Lorne Michaels deciding SNL should no longer hire up and coming experienced comedians and instead will start hiring good looking people and teach them how to be funny.

Edited by Technico Support
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40 minutes ago, Zimbra said:

Studio 60 is a great parallel for the WWE because it had a talented cast that was undercut by absolutely dogshit writing.

I knew that show was screwed as soon as they decided to show the “sketches”. The whole premise was that these two guys were brilliant comedy writers, and then you see their output and it’s not the least bit funny. 
 

30 Rock got that right by just going with the premise that the show was terrible. 

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Wrestling Observer says the deal with Brock was a last-minute thing to appease Fox.  Apparently, the network thinks SDL needs star power to replace John Cena.  Becky going to SDL is also for Fox's benefit.

Meltzer also said Fox is unhappy CM Punk showed up on AEW.  The network feels Vince should have thrown money at Punk to prevent that from happening.  

I'm legit curious what amount Punk would have demanded to sign with WWE.

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11 minutes ago, Eoae said:

I'm legit curious what amount Punk would have demanded to sign with WWE.

Maybe certain heads served up on a platter?

Edited by Shartnado
oops
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15 minutes ago, Eoae said:

Meltzer also said Fox is unhappy CM Punk showed up on AEW.  The network feels Vince should have thrown money at Punk to prevent that 

Being mad at WWE for not signing CM Punk is like my mom being mad at Rihanna for not dating me. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind expect that to happen?

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I think, at minimum, he would have demanded a degree of creative control that they never would have given him plus fuck you money.

But I don't think it was a realistic possibility at any number.

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1 minute ago, Zimbra said:

I think, at minimum, he would have demanded a degree of creative control that they never would have given him plus fuck you money.

But I don't think it was a realistic possibility at any number.

He's gone on the record multiple times about how he felt that WWE was detrimental to him and his physical, emotional, and mental well being. He's never going to work for them, it's completely out of the question. 

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3 minutes ago, supremebve said:

Being mad at WWE for not signing CM Punk is like my mom being mad at Rihanna for not dating me. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind expect that to happen?

Highly likely that the FOX execs in question have no idea of the level of animosity Punk has for WWE and thinks he’s just another old star who could be bought for the right price.

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