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AEW - JUN 2021


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1 minute ago, John from Cincinnati said:

With the exception of Chris Jericho and Dean Ambrose. I see this idea bandied about quite a bit, but it's never really been tested. With the exception of Ambrose, they've never really lured away a perennial headliner or someone on the cusp of that. I'd be interested to see how well this thinking held up if they managed to land the equivalent of an '05 Christian or an '06 Angle. 

I have to think Danielson would be the exception for sure.  There are other guys they'd definitely hotshot to the top, but it's dudes like Roman or Rollins or Orton* who aren't going anywhere.

 

Not saying I'd like to see Orton or Rollins in the AEW main event scene, but I just think they'd almost have to put them there.

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1 hour ago, Bryan said:

No one can tell me AEW wouldn’t be better off with someone with proper training that looks like a physical threat filling in his jobber to the stars role. Current AEW guys would look better beating someone like Mojo Rawley before a big ppv match, and almost certainly be safer in the ring.

There's a Performance Center joke in there somewhere 😛

I'm not so sure AEW should be hiring anyone, either for in-ring or for scouting talent, who never worked outside the WWE system for their entire career. 

Edited by Technico Support
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To pile onto the Braun problems, every other ex-WWE guy who is a current big player in AEW has a good body of work outside of the WWE system. Any East Coast indie dude knew the Jon Moxley gimmick was money, Jericho speaks for himself, La Sombra was a main-eventer, Cody took his years in the wilderness very seriously, Christian and Hardy had their TNA runs, PAC always had Dragon Gate. The exception is Miro (and FTR if I'm being fair), and I have no reason whatsoever to believe Braun can take advantage of the AEW system as well as Miro currently is.

Let him try to figure out how to be a non-WWE wrestler on his own. See if he has the capacity to give a shit about the business in any other way. If he can do a solid year in Japan or Mexico, great, consider him. I don't love his odds.

 

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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7 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I'm not so sure AEW should be hiring anyone, either for in-ring or for scouting talent, who never worked outside the WWE system for their entire career.

It's a good thing for Tay Conti that not everyone feels this way. 😞 

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2 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

With the exception of Chris Jericho and Dean Ambrose. I see this idea bandied about quite a bit, but it's never really been tested. With the exception of Ambrose, they've never really lured away a perennial headliner or someone on the cusp of that. I'd be interested to see how well this thinking held up if they managed to land the equivalent of an '05 Christian or an '06 Angle. 

Didn’t Christian leave WWE back then because he wasn’t thought of as a main eventer? I just remember it seemed like every WWE mid card guy and washed up legend would immediately go to the top.

And I recall an interview in which Khan was a little defensive about Miro’s booking stating that he’d already had his year booked out so there wasn’t really a neat fit for him.

So even if Reigns or Rollins were unexpectedly released tomorrow, I’m not sure he’d change his major booking plans to accommodate them.

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32 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Didn’t Christian leave WWE back then because he wasn’t thought of as a main eventer? I just remember it seemed like every WWE mid card guy and washed up legend would immediately go to the top.

And I recall an interview in which Khan was a little defensive about Miro’s booking stating that he’d already had his year booked out so there wasn’t really a neat fit for him.

So even if Reigns or Rollins were unexpectedly released tomorrow, I’m not sure he’d change his major booking plans to accommodate them.

Christian was on that cusp and was finally getting some world title bouts for the first time and getting some real footing in the upper card. I don't know if they'd have gone all the way with him, but very much someone who was getting there and had upward momentum. He obviously wanted more though, hence the jump (and good for us fans that he knew when to leave). Everybody who's made that jump to AEW (sans Moxley) has been far lower status than Christian was at the time, so they've not had to make a lot of hard choices to not insert people into main event level stuff immediately. They've not coaxed away a really big fish, or even a modestly-sized one ala '05 Christian. Whether or not people want that, everyone's free to be as wrong about that as they like. 

With regards to washed up legends at the top, there were a fair few of those in TNA. But the case against a lot of those ex-WWE guys main eventing has never been as strong as it's made out to be. Rhino doesn't need to be headlining, but you go with an Angle, a Christian, or a Jeff Hardy type, who is someone either contemporarily-established or on the rise. I've never thought using talent people know from other TV shows looks bad. It's actually the opposite. 

"I had my year booked out" is the kind of thing that reinforces my greatest misgivings about the way this company books. Major risk of being rigid and slow to respond. I know much is often made of how well these shows "bounces back" after something is poorly responded to by the audience, but the case is often overstated. Though I do like that he apparently knows enough to be "a little defensive." 

Not accommodating either of those guys you mentioned would just be wasting the time of everyone invested in this thing, but neither is happening so no worries of him falling short of that hypothetical task. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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Moxley’s vibe in the Keller and Jericho interviews was much more of a creatively frustrated artist desperate for any unrestricted platform to practise his art i.e. the push-factor rather than the ‘pull’ factor of sharing AEW’s vision. It felt like he would have been happy landing anywhere to ‘play his music’ (TM Cody). 
So in terms of luring/poaching headliners you could make the case it’s a list of one - Jericho.

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I think there's a place in AEW for Braun Strowman. The problem is that no one would (or should) pay him what it would take to get him for him to do Dark Order sketches and put over Wardlow and Archer. I question if Braun Strowman loves the business. I believe he loved the WWE, but that isn't the business. Putting him with Rowan would be interesting, and would hide his physical decline, but again, the value isn't there. 

 

AEW should absolutely have their eyes open when WWE makes cuts. There are a handful of super talented performers that they need to absolutely jump on when given the chance. Tom End, Heidi Lovelace, Cassie and Jessie, Thea, CJ, tafka Bud Murphy, et al. People that make your roster better. Does Braun really do that? 

 

I also think we're taking it a bit too much for granted that AEW's young stars would jump at WWE offers if/when they come. Especially when they share a locker room with guys like Miro and Jon Moxley, who left because of how much they hated it there. AEW feels very much like ECW in the sense that it's the underdog program, with a boss that inspires loyalty through devotion rather than toxicity. I'm not sure very many of those guys would leave a good situation for slightly more money when WWE can't figure out how to make Keith fucking Lee interesting...

 

 

Also, fuck Mojo Rawley. 

Edited by just drew
I forgot the most obvious one.
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I really enjoyed seeing Arik Cannon on Dark Elevation and I hope we will see more of him in AEW.

I particularly enjoyed seeing him in there against Eddie Kingston (in a tag match) and getting a little bit of his crafty heel stuff in.

Cannon and Kingston are connected in my mind because, out of the dozens of "gaijin" wrestlers I have seen and met and spoken to and/or hung out with over here in Japan, they are the only two who relentlessly heeled it up without throwing in a little nod and a wink to show that they are really good guys inside. 

I saw Cannon on a Dragon Gate show in Fukuoka in November of 2007, the second time we came to Japan from Canada. He was in a tag match and Mochizuki was on the other team and I was cheering for Mochizuki and Arik Cannon just unloaded on me for that. It got to the point where my girlfriend (now my wife) was legit terrified, constantly worried that "Mohawk Guy" might come after us until we were safely out of Fukuoka. Needless to say, Cannon made me a fan for life that day. 

King was part of the Chikara crew that came to work in Osaka Pro Wrestling in September of 2011. The Chikara guys were always super friendly, and so obviously having a blast in Osaka... except for Eddie Kingston who was angry at everybody all the time. He hated my good friend Osaka Pro superfan Kenji. We all loved him for it, and showed that love by booing him relentlessly. He never broke. Didn't smile once, that I noticed. 

So it totally did my heart good to see those two fighting each other. Brought back some great memories. 

(Also it occurs to me that Fire Ant was also on that tour, so I can technically add Orange Cassidy to the list of "guys I've seen live."

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Some thoughts from Elevation.

Tony S. for all of his enthusiasm still comes off like he's never watched wrestling before miscalling Spears' finish a Canadian Destroyer and a Michinoku Driver a powerbomb.

I don't think we talk about Lee Johnson enough. He's got good babyface fire and some solid fundamental storytelling items down. He has nice hot tag offence and has pretty good timing and selling. Only issue he had in the tag match with Dustin is getting out of position during one of their double teams where Lee set up Dustin for a running kick to the head. He needed to move forward after the blow but ended up turning into Dustin's path instead. Still a good outing. I love his chest beating and kip up during his fire sequences.

Eddie Kingston and Penta had zero chemistry as a team and that was pretty surprising. The match felt very awkward on their end. Arik Cannon looked pretty good.

Orange Cassidy squash was pretty good when the other guy was on offense. I think they went overboard on Cassidy rolling around during his comeback with too many passes around his opponent rather than actually doing anything productive.

Wardlow looks smaller to me. Maybe I just haven't seen him a lot lately but it looks like he may have lost some muscle mass? If I were giving him notes, I would tell him to keep his tongue in his mouth and work more stoically. Finish was red hot fiery death, what a sell job by the other guy.

Nyla has become fast forward material for me.

Hart is obviously and understandably green. She's got good parts to build with though and her standing moonsault hits perfectly and that's not easy to do.

Spears had a nice squash match. He's pretty good at taking things up a notch and doing little well like stomps and knees on the floor. The last thing he needs is another gimmick thing so the Canadian God shirt should go right in the burn pile. 

EDIT: Finished watching show. 

Solow is the most "Just Another Guy" since Alan Angels, the dude seriously needs to figure out who he is so he can figure out what he's supposed to be doing. Be the weasel of the unit, the smart one something. I was struck that if you put the Factory team against the enhancement team and showed it to a wrestling neophyte, no one would be able to say which ones the stars were.

Scorpio Sky versus Reynolds is like Poor Man's Bret Hart against Poor Man's Christian and I'm totally there for it. Scorpio is finding his groove in this enhancement matches as a technically, not physically dominant heel. Loved Reynolds kicking him in the stomach when Sky had his hands behind his back because that's obviously what you'd do. Now if Sky put his hands in his pockets? Totally different story. I think the finish had one two many steps between the missed moonsault and getting to the leglock finish (with Alex going for a rolling elbow) but that's a minor quibble.

 

Edited by Goodear
Finished watching show
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18 hours ago, Bryan said:

Who they bring in isn’t as important as what the plans are for who they sign. I didn’t think they could get the jobber stink off of Brodie Lee but he ended up exceeding my expectations with the new character.

I’m skeptical but if Tony Khan had an idea for Braun, I’d at least give it a shot.

I also think Mark Henry could just be doing his friend a favor and trying to drum up the value of Strowman elsewhere.

Anyway, AEW has already proven they don’t push the former WWE guys to the top immediately like TNA. And with big guys, it’s often the opposite. So I don’t think they should not add talent just because it’s WWE guys.

And AEW definitely has some weak links. For example, Joey Janela is so bad that he busted open one of the promotions top baby faces and came dangerously close to suplexing him into the ropes right before a ppv. Lucky he wasn’t fired.

No one can tell me AEW wouldn’t be better off with someone with proper training that looks like a physical threat filling in his jobber to the stars role. Current AEW guys would look better beating someone like Mojo Rawley before a big ppv match, and almost certainly be safer in the ring.

 

Janela's value to AEW is his links the the indies and scouting.  As a wrestler, he should be a slimy heel manager, and be used eventually to get Sonny over if you ever think Sonny is worthy of such a push (I have my doubts)

A lot of the folks in the low card in AEW do other things, and they're pretty good in their low card spots.  Janela wants to be more than what he's capable of.

 

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5 hours ago, The Natural said:

 

I question how great of a sequence this really is and would like to put it under a microscope as to why. Before I go into that however, let's throw in some caveats. First, I don't remember when this happened in the body of the match up so I'm going to assume that this happened later in the matchup and wasn't like the first thing they did. Both guys are selling a bit like they are tired at this point so I think that's a fair place to put the sequence. I think everyone would agree that this absolutely wouldn't work as the first thing they did in a match. Secondly, this is absolutely preferable to some parity spots where guys do a bunch of stuff, nothing connects, nothing gets accomplished and the two wrestlers end up looking at each other in the stand off stance. This is a different sort of parity spot where both guys hit stuff and they end up projecting a level of equality without no one being able to touch the other person.

With that out of the way, we open with Fenix slapping Omega's hands off him and hitting a quick spin kick to the stomach.  He follows with a limp dick forearm and a chop. Neither of the two hand strikes are particularly good and don't add a lot to get us to the next point. So Kenny, being hit in the stomach, the side of the head and his chest grabs his chest and then face before Fenix sets up a suplex. Kenny gets put in a weird position with the series of strikes to different places in that he can't possibly sell all of them. As the spin kick should have doubled him over somewhat, it would have been more natural to go right to the suplex from there rather than throw in two things that didn't help. Fenix then hooks for the suplex but Kenny immediately counters by lifting Fenix only to get kneed on the way up, Kenny then falls backward into the ropes and gets superkicked for the first time. This all happens in 4-5 seconds which would lead me to believe that most people watching aren't going to catch all of that and just focus on the superkick that punctuated the mini-sequence. Omega ends up selling on his heels, wobbling as though he might fall backward if nothing were to happen to him. Instead Fenix grabs him and goes for a head palm shoot off only to have Kenny reverse. I'm not as diametrically opposed to the head palm shoot off as some but reversing one with one of your own seems really odd. Compared to the standard shoot off where guys go wrist-to-wrist, you could see someone holding on easily and reversing the momentum. Just pivoting and grabbing the other guy by the head doesn't work as well in my opinion. 

This is where we start to lose execution as Fenix goes into his rope kick spot. The problem with this spot is always that people have to stand there and wait for him to revolve around in the ropes before reacting to the kick. Kenny is forced to stand in place while the maneuvering is happening and while it's fair to say that he's going to duck this kick anyway, it could have been more organic looking if they did a standard shoot off and Kenny had to regather himself from the effort of the whip and then stand up to see the kick coming. This could technically be seen as Kenny baiting the kick since he ducked after all but his body language said he was groggy rather than waiting and he wouldn't do that for any reason to full Fenix who cannot see him as he's moving through the ropes. After Fenix finishes the kick, Kenny hits the V Trigger and the problem here is that rather than starting the motion as Fenix is resetting from the kick, he waits until Fenix is looking back at him in a neutral position before starting the motions leading up to the knee. So now Fenix has to wait to be hit. Fenix hits the ground, immediately kips up and kicks Kenny with his second superkick before falling back down again. Kenny flops to the mat face first. Kenny's delayed sell is fine and appropriate to someone crumbling after getting hit. Fenix's kip up is the issue here as one would think the pain from a strike would be at its greatest immediately after the strike. It's one thing to take a punch, swing wildly by instinct while falling down. It seems quite another to take a punch, fall down, do an acrobatic flourish to get back up, hit the other guy hard enough to knock him down and then fall.

I think this is a sequence that tries to pull off almost a fighting game type of vibe where you can fight at peak effectiveness until you're dead. I think wrestling works better as the characters become more desperate as damage occurs and that damage restricts future actions. All in all, I continue to believe this was a parity spot in order to show that Fenix can run with Omega and I think it was somewhat effective in that purpose. I think some of the execution choices left something to be desired where some parts were quicker than they should have been (the suplex section) and some required the performers to be flat footed when they should have been moving (the rope kick and the V Trigger).

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4 hours ago, Goodear said:

Eddie Kingston and Penta had zero chemistry as a team and that was pretty surprising. The match felt very awkward on their end. Arik Cannon looked pretty good.

I noticed that too but I at the time thought they were doing that on purpose to show they're not fully on the same page for story purposes.  Then reality set in but if they team again hopefully it improves.

4 hours ago, alstein said:

anela's value to AEW is his links the the indies and scouting.  As a wrestler, he should be a slimy heel manager, and be used eventually to get Sonny over if you ever think Sonny is worthy of such a push (I have my doubts)

I don't know about manager but with his penchant for clubs according to Dark I think we're one step closer to that.  I love Sonny and would love for him to have a chance to shine.  Though past the Janela feud I'm not sure where else he can go from there.  I'm just happy to see feuds being played out on Dark and Elevation as they seem to be good ways to keep you invested in the shows.

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To add my two cents on the Braun topic, I don't think his name value is big enough to warrant signing him for a potentially high amount. I agree with whoever was talking about him losing his aura when he cut his hair and the military shit. Let Archer and Wardlow shine, Braun had his time and wasn't that impressive in the ring anyways. Especially when you could probably hire Tommy End, Murphy, Heidi Lovelace and the IIconics for the same price as Braun himself. That's just business baby. (Fuck Mojo, I don't care about his relationship with Gronk anyways. TK has the Jags at his disposal/Tebow anyways)

It's great to see that AEW is gonna be profitable soon enough. You really have to give TK credit for what he's done with AEW. The guy had all the momentum in the world last year as Full Gear concluded and then we get a pandemic. To be able to navigate that the way he did says a lot. I haven't been much of a WWE viewer these past two years, but AEW looked and felt much better than WWE during the pandemic. Plus we got Starks, Kingston, and even a Warhorse sighting on TNT. I mean come on. Shit, maybe the pandemic in a weird way was the best thing to happen to them. Forced WWE to cut some talent they scooped up and it gave them a better idea of how to do things w/o having to be on the road every week. Now they can put all that stuff to practice better than they did pre pandemic.

I can't wait to look back a year from now and see how they're doing. I hope ratings tick up for them because they deserve it and when those live crowds come back, that's an Attitude Era esque environment. 

Edited by Krone Meltzer
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I don't think you can argue it was a good thing considering they lost their crowds for a year which were a key part of their presentation and had to put lots of stuff into holding patterns (most notably anything regarding Adam Page). 

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3 minutes ago, Goodear said:

I don't think you can argue it was a good thing considering they lost their crowds for a year which were a key part of their presentation and had to put lots of stuff into holding patterns (most notably anything regarding Adam Page). 

That's true, but think of everything else it offered. It gave Dark a real identity in bringing in local talent as opposed to Janela/Omega Lights Out matches which I think was good. It helped them flesh out their roster with talent that may not have been otherwise released or even given the opportunity. It helped them time shows better (I've definitely noticed this where everything has better flow. They still have occasional hiccups but its way better than before) and it helped them establish what they are.

Think about the flipside and WWE. This pandemic I'd argue only HURT them which in turn has made AEW look better and help them. WWE has had some of the worst booking along with all those furloughs/releases along the way. Shit I have a friend of mines mom who refuses to watch WWE now because they're releasing all her favorites and aren't treating those people right.

I'd argue AEW made out like a bandit cause of the pandemic. It's super shitty it happened but I'll be damned if TK didn't come out smelling like roses. 

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I don't know about all this. As time goes on they were either going to get better at timing things out or they weren't. I doubt the pandemic did much to expedite that process. It's nice having Kingston, Deeb, Rosa, and Starks around, but promising new talent was always going to land in the company at some point when they became available. Dark is a big whatever so it's identity really doesn't matter all that much, but I guess they're pleased that the marathon Dark tapings allowed them to pad their library with all-important content~!, so there's that. 

I guess they might look better than other literal dumpster fire entities, but that's nothing for anyone to pat themselves on the back for. Hard for me to see a period that deprived them of the ability to present wrestling properly as "the best thing to happen to them." But clearly some people get it. 

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I'm just saying, AEW had their TV rights renewed during a pandemic. WWE is hitting record lows never seen before. Maybe they don't correlate, but one seems to be getting the shine while the other is getting the shit.

Plus, I gotta try and find some positives that came out of this. Last 16 months has been shit for the entire world, so a guy with a start up business that relies on fan attendance doing all of this and thriving while in a pandemic is pretty impressive in my opinion. Vinnie Mac has 35+ years of wrestling experience and couldn't figure it out.

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3 hours ago, Goodear said:

I question how great of a sequence this really is and would like to put it under a microscope as to why. Before I go into that however, let's throw in some caveats. First, I don't remember when this happened in the body of the match up so I'm going to assume that this happened later in the matchup and wasn't like the first thing they did. Both guys are selling a bit like they are tired at this point so I think that's a fair place to put the sequence. I think everyone would agree that this absolutely wouldn't work as the first thing they did in a match. Secondly, this is absolutely preferable to some parity spots where guys do a bunch of stuff, nothing connects, nothing gets accomplished and the two wrestlers end up looking at each other in the stand off stance. This is a different sort of parity spot where both guys hit stuff and they end up projecting a level of equality without no one being able to touch the other person.

With that out of the way, we open with Fenix slapping Omega's hands off him and hitting a quick spin kick to the stomach.  He follows with a limp dick forearm and a chop. Neither of the two hand strikes are particularly good and don't add a lot to get us to the next point. So Kenny, being hit in the stomach, the side of the head and his chest grabs his chest and then face before Fenix sets up a suplex. Kenny gets put in a weird position with the series of strikes to different places in that he can't possibly sell all of them. As the spin kick should have doubled him over somewhat, it would have been more natural to go right to the suplex from there rather than throw in two things that didn't help. Fenix then hooks for the suplex but Kenny immediately counters by lifting Fenix only to get kneed on the way up, Kenny then falls backward into the ropes and gets superkicked for the first time. This all happens in 4-5 seconds which would lead me to believe that most people watching aren't going to catch all of that and just focus on the superkick that punctuated the mini-sequence. Omega ends up selling on his heels, wobbling as though he might fall backward if nothing were to happen to him. Instead Fenix grabs him and goes for a head palm shoot off only to have Kenny reverse. I'm not as diametrically opposed to the head palm shoot off as some but reversing one with one of your own seems really odd. Compared to the standard shoot off where guys go wrist-to-wrist, you could see someone holding on easily and reversing the momentum. Just pivoting and grabbing the other guy by the head doesn't work as well in my opinion. 

This is where we start to lose execution as Fenix goes into his rope kick spot. The problem with this spot is always that people have to stand there and wait for him to revolve around in the ropes before reacting to the kick. Kenny is forced to stand in place while the maneuvering is happening and while it's fair to say that he's going to duck this kick anyway, it could have been more organic looking if they did a standard shoot off and Kenny had to regather himself from the effort of the whip and then stand up to see the kick coming. This could technically be seen as Kenny baiting the kick since he ducked after all but his body language said he was groggy rather than waiting and he wouldn't do that for any reason to full Fenix who cannot see him as he's moving through the ropes. After Fenix finishes the kick, Kenny hits the V Trigger and the problem here is that rather than starting the motion as Fenix is resetting from the kick, he waits until Fenix is looking back at him in a neutral position before starting the motions leading up to the knee. So now Fenix has to wait to be hit. Fenix hits the ground, immediately kips up and kicks Kenny with his second superkick before falling back down again. Kenny flops to the mat face first. Kenny's delayed sell is fine and appropriate to someone crumbling after getting hit. Fenix's kip up is the issue here as one would think the pain from a strike would be at its greatest immediately after the strike. It's one thing to take a punch, swing wildly by instinct while falling down. It seems quite another to take a punch, fall down, do an acrobatic flourish to get back up, hit the other guy hard enough to knock him down and then fall.

I think this is a sequence that tries to pull off almost a fighting game type of vibe where you can fight at peak effectiveness until you're dead. I think wrestling works better as the characters become more desperate as damage occurs and that damage restricts future actions. All in all, I continue to believe this was a parity spot in order to show that Fenix can run with Omega and I think it was somewhat effective in that purpose. I think some of the execution choices left something to be desired where some parts were quicker than they should have been (the suplex section) and some required the performers to be flat footed when they should have been moving (the rope kick and the V Trigger).

 

Wow. This is my least favorite post in the history of the board. Four paragraphs dissecting a 21 second strike exchange clip? Listen everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just maybe keep your opinions a little less pretentious when putting them out there in the ether. Cool? Thanks bud.

Edited by NoFistsJustFlips
changed wording
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1 hour ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

 

Wow. This is my least favorite post in the history of the board. Four paragraphs dissecting a 21 second strike exchange clip? Listen everyone is entitled to their opinion. Just maybe keep your opinions a little less pretentious when putting them out there in the ether. Cool? Thanks bud.

That’s an analysis that would make Pitchfork blush.

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