The Viceland Wrestling Documentaries

[Curt McGirt]

That might just be your proof of poor restaurant: co-owner and cook closes down restaurant to return customers to hotel during hotel having convention based on sport of said restaurant. I bet they had a sign hanging on the door that said "back in an hour" or something. 

EDIT: Well I guess they could always have other people hold down the fort so there goes that theory

Edited July 22, 2023 by Curt McGirt

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Curt McGirt said:

Isn't he still running that shit? Man, I loved Shoney's when I was a little kid for that "free" (as I thought) ice cream.

This talk is reminding me that there was a Road Report one time where a couple of us went to Abby's, who was that? I think Schneider was one? 

Per one of the episodes of What Happened When, it was a casualty of the pandemic. Either that or it closed down right before it.

[colonial]

Scott Steiner's Shoney's restaurant shut down in the summer of 2020 because of the pandemic. Scott made mention a few years back about "opening a sports bar" in the Atlanta area once the pandemic subsides, but nothing's come of it.

I ate at the restaurant in 2019 prior to moving from the Atlanta area to central Florida -- typical Shoney's menu and options, and there was a small "shrine" with photos from Scott's wrestling career.  Scott wasn't there -- I was told that he was usually at the eatery 2-3 times a week, and his role was primarily going from table to table, greeting customers and asking how things were. Got the feeling that Scott's wife or someone else close to him ran the business with Scott serving as the "face" of the restaurant (which can be common with a celeb-centric eatery).

I once asked a friend about Abby's restaurant in Atlanta -- I was warned it was in the "worst part of the city" and the eatery was the only reason to go there. Said the food was meh (the ribs were far better than the Chinese food) but lots of memorabilia to gaze at. Never went there.

[odessasteps]

Wonder what this will be 

[Peck]

1 hour ago, odessasteps said:

Wonder what this will be 

Penzer has Tweeted multiple things about him since that episode aired. Got me wondering myself.

[DreamBroken]

Curious to hear as well, he was mysteriously not on last weekend's Great North Wrestling show (originally his promotion) where he was advertised to wrestle Little Guido. After his Texas runs 2 years ago that ended with the ref spiking incident had the entire area hating him, I can't imagine.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

On 7/21/2023 at 4:57 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

If random people know Devon Nicolson had a career outside of wrestling Abdullah the Butcher, you don't think the people repping Abby had that same information? You think they went, "well shit...he may be right so we're SOL."

I actually don't disagree with you at all on your point but I do want to point out a distinction here that is important. Abby had no representation. He didn't show up. It was a default judgement. That's how Abby described it in the episode. I couldn't find anything that disputed it with a Google search. He was playing the unable to read angle and said he didn't show up because he didn't know how to read mail. Which sounds carny. If the not being able to read thing is a work, he probably knew he was screwed and consciously made the choice to not show up. Who knows where the truth lies.

Maybe if he had gone and had proper council they could have argued that idea successfully. I find it to be highly likely Abby did give it to him. But without crystal clear evidence (like dated blood tests before Abby that proved he didn't have it before 2007), a good lawyer may have been able to spread some doubt on it.

Edited July 23, 2023 by NoFistsJustFlips

[Elsalvajeloco]

5 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I actually don't disagree with you at all on your point but I do want to point out a distinction here that is important. Abby had no representation. He didn't show up. It was a default judgement. That's how Abby described it in the episode. I couldn't find anything that disputed it with a Google search. He was playing the unable to read angle and said he didn't show up because he didn't know how to read mail. Which sounds carny. If the not being able to read thing is a work, he probably knew he was screwed and consciously made the choice to not show up. Who knows where the truth lies.

Maybe if he had gone and had proper council they could have argued that idea successfully. I find it to be highly likely Abby did give it to him. But without crystal clear evidence (like dated blood tests before Abby that proved he didn't have it before 2007), a good lawyer may have been able to spread some doubt on it.

It sounds carny cause it is carny. He would have access to someone who could read even if he couldn't himself. No court is going to buy that. Also, he didn't just start receiving mail in 2010 or whenever this shit took place.

Anyway, I think the reason he probably had no representation if that is true is who would take this case? First off, we have to keep in mind that this case didn't happen the same week this episode aired on Vice. I remember when the news broke. It didn't look good for Abby at all. It looked bad. We also probably didn't know about Hannibal like everyone seems to know now. Second, we have to assume that whoever hears this case is not a straight up, hardcore wrestling fan or at least a casual wrestling like everyone here. So anything that Abby has been doing his entire career comes off as insanely bizarre and strange if the whole situation doesn't comes off as that. Here's what likely happened. Abby, at his advanced age, probably went into that match and took no extra safety precautions. This is ain't WWE especially post Owen Hart tragedy or even AEW now where if someone has to do or is booked to do something out of the ordinary, they take every precaution or try to take every precaution to make sure no one gets hurt or the damage is minimized. Shit still happens and folks still get hurt, but they took at least SOME steps to make sure that didn't happen. This here was just some random indy match. So Abby probably did what he had been doing, which is showing up for a paycheck/ the cash. He cut up his blade, taped the shards to the end of his fingers like he's been doing 50+ years, had his match, and then went back to the motel or the airport. Hell, he probably didn't remember this match until someone showed him the footage. So what steps did he take to sow any seeds of doubt? Did he sterilize the instruments he was using? Did he ask Hannibal if he was fine with cutting him? Cause someone (forgot who) insinuated Hannibal wasn't comfortable doing it and provided no evidence whatsoever (were they even there when this went down?) even though we saw plenty of footage of Hannibal bleeding that probably wasn't related to anything with Abby. Did Abby cut Hannibal and then left him after the match to treat those cuts? I remember an earlier ep of Arn's podcast where he briefly touched on how you make sure those cuts don't get infected when you treat any cut you inflicted upon yourself. So there is at least a process that happens AFTERWARDS. From that, I can safely assume that you have to make sure you take more steps if you have to do it to someone else even if you're just checking in to see if they can clean themselves up properly if no outside medical assistance is available. Being honest, do you really feel like Abby did ANY of this? I think Abby didn't remember anything about the match and believed he was royally screwed so why show up. From Dark Side, he didn't explain himself well. AT ALL. He provided absolutely nothing that would help him in a case, which is why he had to deflect to everything but that. You have to remember that wrestling itself was not on trial, but Abdullah the Butcher/Larry Shreve was. 

This ain't like Mass Transit where even if New Jack was trying to clearly hurt the kid, the incident itself should have never taken place to begin with. There were other people at fault other than the person on trial. You can take blame away since the kid may or may not have lied (or best case scenario character wise for the kid, extremely exaggerated) about his experience and gladly asked to get color on top of others allowing him to be in a ring where he definitely shouldn't have been. So technically, even as heinous and as brutal as it was, New Jack didn't do anything wrong. Here, it's a fault within the process and the lack of steps Abby took to prevent it. The only thing that would have absolved him if Abby didn't have Hep C (or didn't have it at the time he wrestled Hannibal) or if Hannibal had it prior to wrestling Abby. However, for whatever guff you want to give Hannibal, he seemed SUPREMELY confident he knew he got it from Abby as well as when he got it. I get bullshit vibes from Hannibal especially on the spike stuff and when he's trying to suck up to folks he interviews to make it seem he was ever on their level in business. Not this. I believe he knew he had Abby dead to rites once that lawsuit was filed down to Abby having the exact same strain. Abby doesn't have anything to explain this way. If he did, it would have never gotten this far.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

I do generally agree with the majority of what you wrote and only have a few small things to add. Aftercare isn't a thing in wrestling lol. If you're working some green kid that won't blade himself and you have to do it for him (as is one scenario put forth for all this), no matter who you are old ass Abby grabbing a paycheck or sweet kind Mick Foley who really does care about helping new guys he's never met... you don't go make sure someone knows how to disinfect a cut. That's a weird thing to expect one adult to check in on another adult for. Now if something goes wrong and someone gets hurt you absolutely check in on them. But putting blame on a man in his 60s for not checking if a man in his 30s knows how to wash out a cut is a weird thought to me.

Again I agree with almost all of your thoughts. But I disagree Abby has no defense. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. He has to prove that more likely than not he got it from Abby in a civil case. Now it's possible he got it from Abby. And probably even is likely after seeing that blade reuse. But he has to PROVE that to a jury. Without a recent blood test right before that and a test right after it there isn't really proof.

A good defense attorney could have pulled footage of all the other hardcore shit Hannibal was doing. Because he wasn't just juicing with Abby. A jury still may have found it more likely than not and awarded him a win. But I would think there's plenty of lawyers who would take that case and try to cast doubt on how exactly he contracted it. Subpoenaed those blood results that confirmed the hep c and checked for any other possible explanations. Were there any needle based drugs that were in his system, legal or otherwise. Asked for blood tests of all the other wrestlers Hannibal had been known to juice with. Etc.

I'm not defending Abby. He's pretty clearly a carny and a shitty person. It's also very likely he did give him hep c. I'm just saying had he chose to go to court I think a good defense attorney could have made a coherent case that could have got him out of all this.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

31 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

But putting blame on a man in his 60s for not checking if a man in his 30s knows how to wash out a cut is a weird thought to me.

I dunno, I feel pretty confident in blaming a guy with a highly contagious bloodborne disease for cutting himself and it resulting in that disease being transmitted to someone else. Especially if he bladed himself, then used the same blade on someone else. That seems... what's the phrase... colossally reckless.

[Elsalvajeloco]

49 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I do generally agree with the majority of what you wrote and only have a few small things to add. Aftercare isn't a thing in wrestling lol. If you're working some green kid that won't blade himself and you have to do it for him (as is one scenario put forth for all this), no matter who you are old ass Abby grabbing a paycheck or sweet kind Mick Foley who really does care about helping new guys he's never met... you don't go make sure someone knows how to disinfect a cut. That's a weird thing to expect one adult to check in on another adult for. Now if something goes wrong and someone gets hurt you absolutely check in on them. But putting blame on a man in his 60s for not checking if a man in his 30s knows how to wash out a cut is a weird thought to me.
 

You know what is also weird? Cutting yourself for no particular reason other than theatrical effect. Again, keep in mind, judges and/juries don't have the same mindset a typical wrestling fan would have. 

13 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

I dunno, I feel pretty confident in blaming a guy with a highly contagious bloodborne disease for cutting himself and it resulting in that disease being transmitted to someone else. Especially if he bladed himself, then used the same blade on someone else. That seems... what's the phrase... colossally reckless.

And guess what? How you feel is exactly what the average person who is likely to preside over or adjudicate this case would feel.

49 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

Again I agree with almost all of your thoughts. But I disagree Abby has no defense. The burden of proof is on the plaintiff. He has to prove that more likely than not he got it from Abby in a civil case. Now it's possible he got it from Abby. And probably even is likely after seeing that blade reuse. But he has to PROVE that to a jury. Without a recent blood test right before that and a test right after it there isn't really proof.

A good defense attorney could have pulled footage of all the other hardcore shit Hannibal was doing. Because he wasn't just juicing with Abby. A jury still may have found it more likely than not and awarded him a win. But I would think there's plenty of lawyers who would take that case and try to cast doubt on how exactly he contracted it. Subpoenaed those blood results that confirmed the hep c and checked for any other possible explanations. Were there any needle based drugs that were in his system, legal or otherwise. Asked for blood tests of all the other wrestlers Hannibal had been known to juice with. Etc.

At the same time though, knowing how Abby gets down, there is likely a case of Abby having a history of reusing blades. I think it was Atlas on this past episode who stated something to effect that someone would ask for a blade back. To do what exactly? Why not do the more sanitary thing and just throw it away? There is a clear history of folks at least at a certain time period (one in which Abby was clearly a part of) where people would use a blade and since they were too lazy or cheap to go to the store to buy more, they would "clean off" the one(s) they used in the other town to do their business that night. Conrad Thompson told a story one time about how Flair's daughter (the oldest one married to Conrad, not Charlotte/Ashley) found out how blood was created in wrestling. It's cause one of the blades he took on the road with him got loose in the laundry room, and Flair accidently stepped on it. Doing stuff like that is probably why some many guys back in the day looked like there was an alien about to pop out of their head along with the scar tissue not being allowed to fully heal.

So yeah, you're right, a lawyer could make a case probably. How likely though did Abby feel like one could be adequately made? I think it was possibly a thing where Abby due to this specific incident felt he was going to open a Pandora's box on his entire career. If he couldn't pay what Hannibal was awarded, do you think he would be able to do the same for maybe at least a dozen other people this happened to? Hannibal did some hardcore stuff, but not everyone he worked with over the course of his long career did. I also think it was a thing where he (Abby) probably knew Hannibal/Devon Nicholson was going to provide bloodwork showing that more than likely he got from Abby. What would make it worse is IF Abdullah the Butcher had wrestled a long stretch of his career with Hepatitis C and actively chose to do the same things he had been doing without disclosing his situation. Now, Abby would be in deeper shit. People in the adult entertainment space have gotten into deep shit because one situation happened and it turns off by not disclosing HIV/AID status or STD results, you've (as patient zero) basically shut down an entire industry cause now they have to find out who has all been infected and how they could avoid this in the future. I think, whether you believe it or not, because Devon was loosely tied to possibly getting a WWE deal down the road or he was looking at other opportunities, he got flagged on his blood work. That's what happens whether it's adult entertainment, combat sports, or even regular work opportunities. If something comes up, that could shut down your entire life. So even if you believe the burden should be on the plaintiff, after everything comes out and names/reps have been dragged through mud, I don't feel like vindication would be immediate because something else would perhaps pop up. I think the only reason it didn't happen here is Hannibal won, but didn't get anything cause (whether you believe it or not) Abby don't have anything to give. 

I know it is the job/purpose of the lawyers to do this, but I don't know necessarily if they could make a case Abby wasn't willing to make himself. Maybe it's just old age or how the episode was edited, but spiritually, I think he knew what was up and that it was just postponing the inevitable. You don't go instantly to I'm poor, I have a caretaker, I couldn't read, I wish I had went to college, I didn't spend my money well, I grew up rough WITHOUT deciding that "yeah, I fucked up and there isn't any way around it." If Hannibal was just targeting him for a payday, I feel like Abby would at least try to fight that especially if he knew or felt he wasn't in the wrong. That is everyone's instant reflex.

 

[bobholly138]

On 7/21/2023 at 3:15 PM, Elsalvajeloco said:

I picked Olive Branch out of the sky, but if I ever move back to Mississippi, I moving to either Olive Branch or Horn Lake. Crime be damned. I am not moving back to terrible part (relative to the rest of Mississippi) that's just in the middle of nowhere.

Little crime in my area. But it is rural as hell. I'm between Bude and Brookhaven.

 

 

[BEN!]

Basically an entire episode on that goof Hannibal but nothing on why Abby's broke now and no mention at all of his wife.  I had never seen the blade job before this but you've got like a 1% chance of contracting Hep C like that so it's no wonder that an attorney came to him instead of a doctor.  I wouldn't think there'd be enough airtight contact between Abdullah and Hannibal to transmit the virus with surface level cuts like that.  The way Nicholson always cried about this made me think he had gotten New Jack'd and cut open to the pink meat.  Also, he had always claimed he was getting signed as a ref so I don't know why Vice made it look like WWE wanted him as a wrestler.  And it wasn't that long ago he got arrested for beating his girlfriend too.

You ever seen Abdullah's signature?  He's got beautiful penmanship for an illiterate guy.

[Cobra Commander]

man this Bigelow episode veered quickly from 1988 to 1995

probably for the best to not include mention of either WCW stint

both of Bigelow's sons look a lot like their dad but I can understand why they might not go into the business

[TheVileOne]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:01 AM, odessasteps said:

Didn't JR say he was done w Dark Side after the Plane Ride episode, but there he was in the JYD one. Unless that was recorded a while ago.

Here is what he said:

https://comicbook.com/wwe/news/aew-jim-ross-dark-side-of-the-ring-no-longer-appear-editing/

 

Quote

 

"It's mixed. I have some problems with some Dark Side editing. I thought I was misrepresented a time or two in the edit," Ross said (h/t WrestlingNews.co). "But I mean, I admire those guys' entrepreneurial spirit and I think it's a good purpose, but I think sometimes they bite into the apple of the dirt. They narrowcast a little bit too much for me, but I'm still going to watch their shows."

"I'm not sure I'll be on any more of them simply because I had such unfortunate negative afterthoughts of it, but you know, you never know," he continued. "Those guys are good guys and they mean well, but I think the edit was a little bit callous and not well thought out quite frankly. So I hope they continue to do those shows, and if they do, I'll continue to watch and we'll see. They should get better at what they do."

 

 

[username]

1 hour ago, BEN! said:

I had never seen the blade job before this but you've got like a 1% chance of contracting Hep C like that so it's no wonder that an attorney came to him instead of a doctor.  I wouldn't think there'd be enough airtight contact between Abdullah and Hannibal to transmit the virus with surface level cuts like that.

Hepatitis is absurdly transmissible, you can catch it from dried infected blood several days after it was spilled.

[Curt McGirt]

As sad as it ended, and I know this is gonna sound fucked up, but you know what that was, out of all the Dark Sides? 

It was the coolest. 

So many awesome stories. Taz totally breaking kayfabe about the ring fall which I didn't think would come out of anyone's mouth, ever. The knowledge of how much Bammer loved his kids. Man, those were some heights. 

[Technico Support]

Absoutely!  Taz bashfully, hesitantly breaking kayfabe was the greatest.

[Curt McGirt]

Watching it again. 

- I wonder where what looks like a gnarly scar on the one kid's face came from

- That list of drugs in his system... phew

- All that ECW footage would have made an awesome opener for Hardcore TV or some other show

- God I gotta watch the LT match again. LT was STIFF. I'm not sure if it was because he was green or because Bammer told him to lay it in, but damn

Next week we got Bash at the Beach 2000 and I don't even know the story behind that one so it should be fun.

[Dolphman 3000]

I had just heard a story a couple days ago about Rob Black paying Dusty Rhodes to no-show a 3PW show in 2002 where he was supposed to wrestle Abdullah, and Meanie called Bigelow on short notice and he came and worked the match with Abby instead.

Question from the episode - I think they implied that WCW told Bam Bam to stay home the rest of his contract since he was a liability, but cagematch shows he was still working right until they closed shop. Did they mean that WWE told him to stay home once they absorbed his contract?

[Cobra Commander]

Bam Bam's wife was divorcing him in 2000 so I suspect her timeline had some holes

Bam Bam did miss several months of action in 2000 because that was when he burned himself rescuing children from a fire (something not mentioned in the episode, IIRC)

[odessasteps]

I thought I heard someone say the episode downplayed the fire story as not as impressive as we all had thought.

[James F'n X]

The fire story is mentioned at the start of the episode amongst the other 'urban legend' stories about Bam Bam. It was treated as lore and not something that actually happened.

[Elsalvajeloco]

On 7/25/2023 at 9:31 PM, Cobra Commander said:

man this Bigelow episode veered quickly from 1988 to 1995

probably for the best to not include mention of either WCW stint

both of Bigelow's sons look a lot like their dad but I can understand why they might not go into the business

Having seen some 1987 episodes of Memphis recently where they have the music video for Bam Bam, you would have thought he was the next big thing in pro wrestling just because a guy like that is so unique. By the time he got back to WWF, you already had the likes of Undertaker around and Yokozuna had just came in as well. You had physically impressive guys in the interim who looked like a real life action figure like Sid who didn't have to do anything to get over but stand there. All the magic he had when he first arrived on the scene and was the shiny new toy was gone. He was a useful midcard guy in the 2nd run but they didn't really do anything to make him special. The Doink feud where he started off against Borne but the blowoff with the replacement Doink and Dink was an all time career setback. 

[Cobra Commander]

Bam Bam Bigelow vs Lex Luger would be an interesting comparison. I think you could go either way for which guy had more potential/hype/veteran resentment, but Luger pretty obviously did more in the business

turns out a guy who did a jail stint in Mexico who couldn't get into Canada had limits on his star potential