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APRIL 2019 WRESTLING DISCUSSION

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I don't think anyone is saying random indie feds should be giving out full employment and benefits. Guys who work Independents all over the place are actual independent contractors.

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Can people really not just read what I wrote, understand the difference between companies with big money behind them paying six figures for exclusive contracts and indies paying 20 bucks and a hot dog for a night's work and deduce that I'm only talking about one of those groups?

Edited by Cristobal
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14 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

Not trying to start with the whataboutism, but wasnt the observer recently accused of not paying writers and giving out free subs in exchange for content? Would love to see what the pension plan looks like. It’s probably buried somewhere in his shed next to the Magee tape.

Meltzer has Bix signed to a Legends contract. 

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12 minutes ago, Cristobal said:

How many Observer writers have died in their 40s?

Most journalists don't last in the profession until they hit their 40s because it is extremely difficult to find someone who will pay you a livable wage with benefits. I obviously understand your point, but it takes a special kind of person to advocate for worker's rights in someone elses business while at the same time treating your own employees like crap. 

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15 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

I don't think anyone is saying random indie feds should be giving out full employment and benefits. Guys who work Independents all over the place are actual independent contractors.

The problem is that the same issues of health that come from working WWE come from working those small indies as well, and that most people in the business spend the majority, if not all, of their careers in those smaller promotions. Never going to argue WWE can't be better better, but it can't only be them if you want actual change.

Edited by Eivion

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5 minutes ago, Eivion said:

The problem is that the same issues of health that come from working WWE come from working those small indies as well, and that most people in the business spend the majority, if not all, of their careers in those smaller promotions. Never going to argue WWE can't be better better, but it can't only be them if you want actual change.

Right. I remember Owens being interviewed before he signed. His knees were already gone. 

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I've read the answer here but I forget: Why can't WWE get SAG coverage?  It's "entertainment" according to the branding.  It's scripted.  It's episodic.  I know I'm missing something, I know.

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3 minutes ago, Eivion said:

The problem is that the same issues of health that come from working WWE come from working those small indies as well, and that most people in the business spend the majority, if not all, of their careers in those smaller promotions. Never going to argue WWE can't be better better, but it can't only be them if you want actual change.

The obvious solution to this is a wrestler union where member dues pay for health care.

Your local indie can't do it. WWE can afford to.

I don't think it's likely WWE will of their own volition. Much guaranteed contracts, it'll need to be forced from outside. If (and this is a big if) AEW was to offer full employee status and health care, WWE might follow suit to stay competitive for talent. Of course, AEW would also have to survive and thrive for this to be an issue.

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16 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

Most journalists don't last in the profession until they hit their 40s because it is extremely difficult to find someone who will pay you a livable wage with benefits. I obviously understand your point, but it takes a special kind of person to advocate for worker's rights in someone elses business while at the same time treating your own employees like crap. 

Ok but again, "can't make a living in this industry" is, I would argue, quite a bit different from "dying decades younger than is normal".

Whether Meltzer and WO are shitty bosses isn't necessarily as important as the issue that in this instance they are promoting.

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3 hours ago, Tromatagon said:

I feel like the HBO label on all the clips should be a clue to where he's from (watch the clips dude they're really good!)- he's a pretty big deal as a result.  LOTS of people watch the show.  It's a pretty gigantic ratings draw and a lot of new eyes are going to be on this as a result.  They just might not give a shit.

Still though, I saw that 20/20 shit.

He needs to not go to Mania.

"Here's our friend Haku to show you around and teach you the business."

"Hey Tonga, did you see the special?  He totally called wrestling fake and said that the Islanders were a shitty tag team."

John's show is great - I enjoy it a lot. But the biggest issue is that there seems to be absolutely no impact from what he does. Several of the things that he's done bits on (psychics, Facebook, Astroturfing, nuclear waste, gerrymandering, etc.) were eye-opening and might have been the thing to get the ball rolling on change for some of those topics, but nothing ever seems to happen after them. Like mentioned earlier, most of the audience will view wrestling and wrestlers as being stupid and ridiculous anyway, so expecting some type of outrage and change because of this piece is unwarranted.

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Well, considering most wrestling fans seem to think that Brutus the Barber Beefcake getting into the hall of fame is more of an issue/controversy than anything Oliver brought up on his show, even OUR audience isn't going to do shit either.

 

Edited by Tromatagon
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10 minutes ago, nate said:

I've read the answer here but I forget: Why can't WWE get SAG coverage?  It's "entertainment" according to the branding.  It's scripted.  It's episodic.  I know I'm missing something, I know.

They'd have to be a SAG signatory and follow SAG union rules.

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8 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

The obvious solution to this is a wrestler union where member dues pay for health care.

Your local indie can't do it. WWE can afford to.

I don't think it's likely WWE will of their own volition. Much guaranteed contracts, it'll need to be forced from outside. If (and this is a big if) AEW was to offer full employee status and health care, WWE might follow suit to stay competitive for talent. Of course, AEW would also have to survive and thrive for this to be an issue.

Right, but this isn't like any other industry.  WWE isn't the only employer chewing up it's talent and spitting them out, it's literally the entire industry.  Doing this in the top 1, 2, or 3 promotions that can afford it isn't going to fix the problem when you have hundreds of guys that never make it disintegrating their bones and ligaments in front of 10 people still getting stuck in the same problem.  It isn't as easy of a fix as "WWE needs to do it!".  

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It's really sad to me that people are saying the only way WWE should offer insurance is if smaller companies like your local indie has to as well. If you don't have an exclusive contract, you're an independent contractor and can work wherever you want and when you want. If you're signed to an exclusive contract anywhere, not just WWE, that requires you to only work for that company, you should get health insurance and be considered an actual employee. It's not that difficult to understand.

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Just now, Raziel said:

Right, but this isn't like any other industry.  WWE isn't the only employer chewing up it's talent and spitting them out, it's literally the entire industry.  Doing this in the top 1, 2, or 3 promotions that can afford it isn't going to fix the problem when you have hundreds of guys that never make it disintegrating their bones and ligaments in front of 10 people still getting stuck in the same problem.  It isn't as easy of a fix as "WWE needs to do it!".  

I don't disagree with you that it won't solve all the problems. That doesn't, on any level, mean WWE shouldn't do it.

Again, a full wrestler union that covers from WWE down to the "work for a hot dog and a Pepsi" Indies, where membership dues cover health insurance and a pension plan is the pie in the sky solution (well, actually, having a health care system that isn't fundamentally broken in this country, but I digress) 

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The really depressing thing about Olivier's show on psychics and mediums is that some of them were the exact same people Penn & Teller took down 16 years ago. Not just the same scams, but the same people. Nothing is ever popping that bubble.

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I was amused that Joey Ryan tried to dunk on the WWE regarding them not allowing unions when someone pointed out to him that his new boss said "Unions will destroy the wrestling business"

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9 minutes ago, Casey said:

It's really sad to me that people are saying the only way WWE should offer insurance is if smaller companies like your local indie has to as well. If you don't have an exclusive contract, you're an independent contractor and can work wherever you want and when you want. If you're signed to an exclusive contract anywhere, not just WWE, that requires you to only work for that company, you should get health insurance and be considered an actual employee. It's not that difficult to understand.

In a perfect world, that would be the case.  But WWE isn't going to do anything without being forced to, and the only way to actually force them is the rest of the industry making a change and it affecting WWE's bottom line.  

You can be on the side of the workers yet still be pragmatic about how to get there.  The world isn't all or nothing.

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2 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

I was amused that Joey Ryan tried to dunk on the WWE regarding them not allowing unions when someone pointed out to him that his new boss said "Unions will destroy the wrestling business"

Has Joey signed with AEW?

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Just now, Raziel said:

In a perfect world, that would be the case.  But WWE isn't going to do anything without being forced to, and the only way to actually force them is the rest of the industry making a change and it affecting WWE's bottom line.  

You can be on the side of the workers yet still be pragmatic about how to get there.  The world isn't all or nothing.

It's also unrealistic to ask your local po-dunk indie that's headlined by Local Wrestler #5 versus a Doink The Clown ripoff to offer full health insurance and a pension plan, etc. before the world's largest wrestling promotion does.

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59 minutes ago, JohnnyJ said:

Not trying to start with the whataboutism, but wasnt the observer recently accused of not paying writers and giving out free subs in exchange for content? Would love to see what the pension plan looks like. It’s probably buried somewhere in his shed next to the Magee tape.

I don't think this is the WON

Or at least if it is - it was such a blb that no one noticed.

I mean I read way too much stuff from Dave and about Dave and I have no idea what you are talking about.

Unless this is being conflated with folks saying Dave is co-opted by AEW thing

If it was about the WON - I would like to read about it.

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Just now, Casey said:

It's also unrealistic to ask your local po-dunk indie that's headlined by Local Wrestler #5 versus a Doink The Clown ripoff to offer full health insurance and a pension plan, etc. before the world's largest wrestling promotion does.

You're right, it's not.

 

But it's also unrealistic to think a segment on a Comedy show and some chants and signs are going to change that promotion's practices.  Until people stop spending money on it and people stop signing, they're not going to change unless someone forces them into it.

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The most surprising thing from the John Oliver piece was Oliver admitting to being a wrestling fan as Jon Stewart had previously indicated he was the only one at the Daily Show who wanted to talk about wrestling!

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Just curious, but if WWE were to pay for insurance, would they just be paying extra money or would they likely be taking this out of employee paychecks? Also how much does insurance cost for a wrestler?

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Maybe Vince is just banking on universal healthcare going through.

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