AUGUST WRESTLING DISCUSSION

[Petey]

 

 

I'm struggling to come up with names as far as who were amongst the first to be "tested" with a de-push. RVD in 2002/2003? Christian 2005? Sure, Mark Henry and Big Show had gone down to OVW in 2000 or so, but I think a lot of that was conditioning issues. What do you guys think?

 

 

It depends what you mean by "de-push." The Rock and Kurt Angle spent quite a bit of time slumming it the midcard after significant title wins, but they won most of their midcard feuds which probably helped them when they were quickly shoved back up the card.

 

If you're talking about guys doing a lot of jobs, it's probably the bigger names of the Alliance. Booker T really stands out since he was pushed as WCW's top guy by virtue of having the belt. He quickly and deciscively lost that to The Rock and spent rest of the invasion jobbing, as many non-defector Alliance-originals did. I honestly can't remember the first feud Booker won in WWE. Did he slip something in February of 02? I'm drawing a blank between getting beat up in the supermarket and losing to Edge in the shampoo feud. I remember he did end up winning a program with Show by the summer of 02 at the latest.

 

Edit: It was almost certainly the Big Show feud. I just remembered post-Mania he joined up with NWO 02, and got kicked out by Michaels which is what turned him face.

 

Unrelated, but was that NWO 02 stable weird or what? Didn't it go from Hogan/Hall/Nash to Michaels/Flair/Waltman/Booker/Show or something like that? What was up with that?

 

 

 

 

I'm struggling to come up with names as far as who were amongst the first to be "tested" with a de-push. RVD in 2002/2003? Christian 2005? Sure, Mark Henry and Big Show had gone down to OVW in 2000 or so, but I think a lot of that was conditioning issues. What do you guys think?

 

 

It depends what you mean by "de-push." The Rock and Kurt Angle spent quite a bit of time slumming it the midcard after significant title wins, but they won most of their midcard feuds which probably helped them when they were quickly shoved back up the card.

 

If you're talking about guys doing a lot of jobs, it's probably the bigger names of the Alliance. Booker T really stands out since he was pushed as WCW's top guy by virtue of having the belt. He quickly and deciscively lost that to The Rock and spent rest of the invasion jobbing, as many non-defector Alliance-originals did. I honestly can't remember the first feud Booker won in WWE. Did he slip something in February of 02? I'm drawing a blank between getting beat up in the supermarket and losing to Edge in the shampoo feud. I remember he did end up winning a program with Show by the summer of 02 at the latest.

 

Edit: It was almost certainly the Big Show feud. I just remembered post-Mania he joined up with NWO 02, and got kicked out by Michaels which is what turned him face.

 

Unrelated, but was that NWO 02 stable weird or what? Didn't it go from Hogan/Hall/Nash to Michaels/Flair/Waltman/Booker/Show or something like that? What was up with that?

 

Maybe I'm alone in this, but I was actually intrigued by nWo 02 when Michaels joined. They started an angle where he was trying to recruit HHH to join them but then Vince came out and killed the whole damn thing.

[Cristobal]

Nothing about the booking of Wyatt suggestions they're de-pushing him.

You were saying?

 

A main event loss on Raw to the top star in the company (who needs to be booked strong to look like a credible challenger to Brock) isn't a de-push. What was it you were saying about Cesaro?

That his booking since Mania has been terrible. Which it has. A win over a guy leaving THIS WEEK changes that?

And did you just seriously say "the top star in the company needs to be booked strong" without a hint of irony?

[MORELOCK]

That his booking since Mania has been terrible. Which it has. A win over a guy leaving THIS WEEK changes that?

 

Well yeah. He's being booked to win and get a title shot. What exactly is it that would make you say "that was a good booking decision?" Nothing less than Cesaro beating Cena clean as a sheet?

 

And did you just seriously say "the top star in the company needs to be booked strong" without a hint of irony?

 

If they're running Cena-Brock II at NOC (and I don't think they should, but they are), it stands to reason that after Brock squashed Cena at Summerslam that they need to sell Cena having some kind of chance against the unstoppable monster.

[John from Cincinnati]

 

Nothing about the booking of Wyatt suggestions they're de-pushing him.

You were saying?

 

 

One night doesn't break a guy. Besides, it's blessing that Wyatt is perceived to be credible enough to put Cena over like that.

 

That wasn't a de-push. 

[Joe Fixit]

Feuding with Jericho for 3 months has been a lot more detrimental to Bray than what happened last night. At least when he's in there with Cena the audience gives a shit.

[Spritenaut 32]

I'm probably in the minority, but I'd be ok with it if they'd de-push the Wyatts right off my tv.  Brodie is good enough that he probably deserves a role somewhere in the uppercard, but I think his look keeps him from getting pushed too heavily as a singles guy.  Personally, I wouldn't mind never seeing the Bray Wyatt character again.

 

That said, he seemed to be getting over and they clearly had something with him - if not the Undertaker replacement people were penciling in for the next 20 WrestleManias - so it seems like they've booked themselves into yet another missed opportunity.

[John from Cincinnati]

Feuding with Jericho for 3 months has been a lot more detrimental to Bray than what happened last night.

 

Agreed. But I think the Powers That Be still see Jericho as a guy with some value. That feud, IMO, is a sign of their continued commitment to Bray. A misstep, yes. But not a conscious de-push.

[Niners Fan in CT]

Oh boy.. when will you guys learn. Wyatt is now nothing more than someone for cena and maybe reigns to beat. The same for Rusev. Nobody is going to be a star as long as they have to push cena in every main event. Possibly Reigns but that'd be it. He's the next hand picked Guy.. and I like him but he's not ready. I have to laugh at this idea that Cena is putting his spot on the line and doing what's right..etc.. the only reason he took the beating from lesnar was so he could get his win back. It's the same and the rock feud. It's the same as Hogan wanting his win back after lesnar destroyed him on smackdown... lucky for us Vince wasn't as crazy back then to put Hogan back over the Guy...

[Bustronaut]

I'm starting to think the board NEEDS an annual shutdown to give people time to recharge

[Yo-Yo's Roomie]

Wyatt has been booked like shit for months, and it's a pretty depressing sign of the times when people are defending it, and even spinning it into 'look how much they think of him letting him trade wins with Jericho and get beat by Cena'. What happened to protecting people you think a lot of?

[cool arrow]

Vince probably decided he needs to lose weight.

[John from Cincinnati]

Nobody is going to be a star as long as they have to push cena in every main event.

 

Every main event? You must have missed Elimination Chamber, which was about Bryan. Or Mania, which was about Bryan. Or Extreme Rules, which was about Bryan, Evolution, and the Shield. Or Payback, which was about Evolution and the Shield. Or the following two PPV builds, which were as much about Reigns as they were about Cena. Or the SummerSlam build, were Steph vs Brie was often pushed as a bigger deal than Lesnar vs Cena. 

 

Not every main event is about pushing Cena. And even if Cena is in the last match of a show, doesn't mean he's the most important thing on the card. 

 

A lot of 2014 has been about people other than Cena. It's not 2007 any more. 

[John from Cincinnati]

What happened to protecting people you think a lot of?

 

With a couple exceptions, WWE hasn't seen fit to book like that in a long time. As such, reading into every win and loss is a futile endeavour. You'll get more from watching a guy's placement on the program than from turning every loss to Jericho or beatdown from Cena into a capital offence. 

[bink_winkleman]

I'm starting to think the board NEEDS an annual shutdown to give people time to recharge

 

It's starting to get to IWC 2004 HHH levels of whining.  And it's actually not even that bad.  WWE is still better than it was just a few years ago.  

 

Also, Jericho still gets huge pops.  Reigns gets huge pops.  RVD is still credible to and beloved by most of the fan base.  Some folks tend to hear what they want to hear.  

[Cristobal]

Steph vs Brie was often pushed as a bigger deal than Lesnar vs Cena.

[The Man Known as Dan]

Dear people whining about other people whining.

 

Shut up. Shut up Shut up Shut up! Sure the promotion is putting on some solid matches, but good god the direction this company is going is just fucking hideous. We aren't far removed from a situation were it seemed we were finally moving away from the stagnant direction the company has been about half a decade, and where is everyone the entire wrestling world seemed to be excited for now? Cesaro went beating Randy Orton clean and winning the Andre the Giant memorial, to some here acting like him winning a No.1 contenders match for a title he held almost as soon as he debuted a "big deal" The Wyatt family went from being in one of the best matches the company has produced in forever, and of the better acts the company had brought forward in a long time, to being trotted out just to prove how serious Cena is when he kicks the shit out of all 3 of them. Even before Bryan was hurt, his first title feud was against god damned Kane. Why shouldn't fans be incredibly annoyed at the direction this company is going, and how they seemingly are just refusing to change anything.

 

I would rather watch a 12 hour compilation of the best of Davey Richards then sit through 1 John Cena match that isn't him just getting his ass kicked and losing. I'm just sick to death of WWE's mindset right now. How in gods name did they take the great reviews in Summerslam, in part because Lesnar destroyed the man everyone is sick of, and take it as a sign to go CENA CENA HE'S OUR MAN, IF HE CAN'T DO IT, HE'LL DO IT ANYWAY!

 

*Leaves thread in a fit of rage*

[John from Cincinnati]

Even before Bryan was hurt, his first title feud was against god damned Kane. 

 

Yeah. Cena's never had to polish a turd before. It's all top shelf for the Champ. Poor Bryan. 

 

How in gods name did they take the great reviews in Summerslam, in part because Lesnar destroyed the man everyone is sick of, and take it as a sign to go CENA CENA HE'S OUR MAN, IF HE CAN'T DO IT, HE'LL DO IT ANYWAY!

 

 

Cena's still bankable. Heating him up again to take another loss to Lesnar isn't the worst idea in the world. The story could be told in another way, but this is far from apocalyptic. 

[The Man Known as Dan]

 

Even before Bryan was hurt, his first title feud was against god damned Kane. 

 

Yeah. Cena's never had to polish a turd before. It's all top shelf for the Champ. 

 

How in gods name did they take the great reviews in Summerslam, in part because Lesnar destroyed the man everyone is sick of, and take it as a sign to go CENA CENA HE'S OUR MAN, IF HE CAN'T DO IT, HE'LL DO IT ANYWAY!

 

 

Cena's still bankable. Heating him up again to take another loss to Lesnar isn't the worst idea in the world. The story could be told in another way, but this is far from apocalyptic. 

 

 

The "still bankable" thing is the fucking dumbest argument I've seen ever, for the record. he's been on top for 10 years. Nobody else has really became "bankable" in that time. Could it maybe be because they focused on making Cena bankable at the expense of every single other person on the fucking roster other then part timers that is the reason why something like the Network isn't working nearly as well as it could? 

 

And don't even try to defend the Bryan/Kane idea. If others here are trying to say that the entire point of last year was WWE building up Bryan and not WWE realizing they were fucking up and changing things at the last minute, then why the fuck was the best they can throw on there champ that the fans loved get partnered with the "He's not a champion we are really behind, so let's stick him with this guy" guy? Why did they have much more solid plans for Cena, and the SHIELD/Evolution thing and nothing anyone really was gonna care about for their champ?

[Patrick B.]

So at the end of Cena's life, will be merely pass away or will he ascend straight to heaven a la Jesus?

[caley]

 

Steph vs Brie was often pushed as a bigger deal than Lesnar vs Cena.

 

Dunno why this is so laughable.  The August 4th Raw featured two video packages on Cena-Lesnar earlier in the night, but closed the night off with Stephanie-Brie.  The July 28th Raw had an opening with Lesnar and Heyman but closed the night off with Stephanie-Brie.  So of the 4 Raws that preceded Summerslam: two ended with Stephanie-Brie and two ended with Cena-Lesnar (Though the first one was just Lesnar, Cena was nowhere to be found and the second was Hulk Hogan's birthday interrupted by Cena/Lesnar) so, realistically, 50% of the Raws leading up to Summerslam featured Steph-Brie over Lesnar-Cena which I would classify as "often".

[John from Cincinnati]

The "still bankable" thing is the fucking dumbest argument I've seen ever, for the record.

 

Noted. 

 

 he's been on top for 10 years. Nobody else has really became "bankable" in that time. Could it maybe be because they focused on making Cena bankable at the expense of every single other person on the fucking roster other then part timers that is the reason why something like the Network isn't working nearly as well as it could? 

 

The notion that no effort has been put into building anyone except Cena is asinine to me. Punk, Edge, Orton, Batista, and Bryan have all become big wrestling stars during Cena's time as a headliner. Maybe Cena's just more bankable than those people because he's better -- because he's what the people want -- because he's inherently more marketable.

 

Also, considering the pushes for performers like Wyatt, Bryan, the Shield, etc this year, I'd say hanging the Network numbers around the necks of Cena and the part-timers is absurd.  

 

If others here are trying to say that the entire point of last year was WWE building up Bryan and not WWE realizing they were fucking up and changing things at the last minute, then why the fuck was the best they can throw on there champ that the fans loved get partnered with the "He's not a champion we are really behind, so let's stick him with this guy" guy?

 

 

Probably the same reason we saw a whole lot of Kane during Cena's year-long march toward Rock in Miami: They still see Kane as a guy worth pairing with a real star during an off month.

[RandomAct]

 

Even before Bryan was hurt, his first title feud was against god damned Kane. 

 

Yeah. Cena's never had to polish a turd before. It's all top shelf for the Champ. Poor Bryan. 

 

How in gods name did they take the great reviews in Summerslam, in part because Lesnar destroyed the man everyone is sick of, and take it as a sign to go CENA CENA HE'S OUR MAN, IF HE CAN'T DO IT, HE'LL DO IT ANYWAY!

 

 

Cena's still bankable. Heating him up again to take another loss to Lesnar isn't the worst idea in the world. The story could be told in another way, but this is far from apocalyptic. 

 

I don't think anyone has an issue with the rematch happening.  It'll be a great match, obvi, but the issue is the bigger one that the safe money is on Cena going over.

[Joe Fixit]

And don't even try to defend the Bryan/Kane idea. If others here are trying to say that the entire point of last year was WWE building up Bryan and not WWE realizing they were fucking up and changing things at the last minute, then why the fuck was the best they can throw on there champ that the fans loved get partnered with the "He's not a champion we are really behind, so let's stick him with this guy" guy? Why did they have much more solid plans for Cena, and the SHIELD/Evolution thing and nothing anyone really was gonna care about for their champ?

The entire point of the Wrestlemania 28-29 period was for Cena to lose some big matches and then get the biggest win of his career by beating The Rock. They followed that up by putting him in a feud with Ryback, a guy who had just lost 6 PPV matches in a row and who nobody bought as main event level any more. They feuded for almost 3 months and Ryback even pinned him clean, while Cena never actually pinned or submitted Ryback even once.

They weren't trying to sabotage Bryan. They do this shit with all the top stars because for some reason they really do think it'll benefit them.

[Super Ape]

FSW Nouveau, Were you even watching back when Punk had the WWE title for over a year and was the main event in MAYBE half the PPVs he was in, while Cena main-evented in throwaway matches like Big Show and Johnny Ace?

I know you said you got less invested in their booking over time, but Jesus Christ, you sound like you just started watching for the first time in a decade.

[JohnnyJ]

I don't think anyone was intentionally trying to cool Wyatt off. It's just the weird WWE dominant face on top booking cycle:

 

Step 1: Put pushed heel over midcard-second tier main eventer face (i.e. Rusev over Swagger, Lesnar over Henry/Show, Wyatt over Bryan)

Step 2: Feed heel to dominant face. 

 

It can become quite frustrating because at the end of the day the only person who benefits is the one face on top. It's difficult for the mid-card/second tier main eventer to rise above this type of loss and it's difficult for the pushed heel to regain his heat after hitting the wall that is the top face.

 

Cena isn't the problem, he's just the longest example of this style of booking. My impression is Cena would've taken a backseat if he could.