The Wall Street Journal Vince McMahon Thread.

[odessasteps]

TKO stock up to start the day? Not sure I’d have predicted that. 

[GuerrillaMonsoon]

I think the Lesnar contributions to the evidence provided makes it difficult to give the benefit of the doubt to the roster. I doubt it's the first talent he's attempted to sign/re-sign by using women in this nature.

I think the clear evidence of Vince using them as proxies to act out his sexual fantasies gives rise to a reasonable concern that this isn't the first time it's occurred.

There are far too many testimonies from those who either have been the top guy in the company or in a prominent office position that being the top guy involves being joined at the hip to Vince. Working out together, travelling together, booking sessions by the pool. That's a difficult thing to look past and think that offering Lesnar this woman was just a left of centre contract negotiation tactic that he'd never tried before. 

Should the DOJ rightly review this, I can see regular guests on the WWE jet being akin to how regular guests to Epstein Island being seen as complicit. 

Do I understand their motivations for remaining silent, not speaking out, not doing more? I'm sure they're varied, fluid and complex. Beyond that, not particularly.

The long term acceptance of Grizzly Smith in the locker room. The recalling date rape incidents by Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannetty on WWE produced programs as wacky pranks. Numerous WWE angles and promos over the years with just a skerrick of truth to them played for entertainment.

[Dog]

3 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Are we at a point yet where we can just call using power imbalances to coerce sex "rape?"

Even if not, a woman saying "no" and a man not stopping is the dictionary definition of rape. And there is more than one allegation like that in the suit.

[supremebve]

12 minutes ago, SirSmUgly said:

These folks can't even agree to unionize. I don't think it's in the mentality of the type of person who goes into pro wrestling that they should even consider banding together for any reason, so if they can't band together to get the company to cover all of their travel costs, they're not going to do it to demand that the guy who comes off like a fatherly, charismatic pro wrestling genius to them is booted from TKO. 

A union is based on mutual trust,  and I personally do not blame anyone who does not trust anyone in the wrestling business. 

The part that hit me hardest was when she agreed to be willing to have a threesome with Vince and Johnny,  but wanted to wait for a day because she was busy and they raped her while saying things like,  "no means yes," and "take it,  bitch." There is no gray area,  no plausible deniability, it felt like rape as punishment for trying to exercise some sort of agency over her own body. I said it earlier in the thread,  but it's a shocking lack of humanity. I don't know how anyone gets to that point where a woman says,  "sure,  I'm down for sex tomorrow," and your response is to rape her as punishment for not agreeing to sex today. 

[Andrew POE!]

4 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

...and yet Punk is back (and Jade is there too probably -- at least for now). I don't get it.

Honestly, the ship has sailed on Phil being on a moral high ground. For all of his Trans Rights/LGBTQIA+ allyship/"Believe Every Woman" shirts he wears on shows, he's just as bad as Hulk Hogan taking Vince McMahon's money, brother. Obviously, his personal transgressions in his life pales in comparison to Vince McMahon or Hogan or Ultimate Warrior or Brock Lesnar or any other terrible person coming back to the WWE.

If Punk had principles, he would boycott being on WWE programming until Vince McMahon is completely gone and the cronies/enablers are gone too. But nope, ride the gravy train of money because CM Punkamania is running wild.

The "Pipe Bomb" from years is now just merchandise.

Edited January 26 by Andrew POE!

[odessasteps]

On the surface, it’s like Jordan Henderson, LGBT ally, taking the money to play in Saudi Arabia. Then, deciding he didn’t like it there and moved to a Dutch team and may not actually ever get his 6 months of salary for playing there. 
 

#MillionDollarMan

[mystman]

55 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

It's just so simple! Breach your contract in protest! The media will surely shame TKO into treating everyone better and nobody will ever be retaliated against!

No they won't. The media doesn't care. How many years have there been scuzzy stories about wrestling, and most of them are tantamount to 1) hey, those scuzzy dudes are scuzzy again or 2) those fakers are fake! This is just another story for them that they'll report for two or three days, but it's the circus in town and they literally don't care.

This is going to take either years and years of systemic change (which starts with a willingness to change, which seemed like it was going to happen in 2022 until Vince power played himself back in), or literally the entire company's going to have to walk out. And that's the other kicker; everyone on the roster may disagree, but the performer's drug inside of them may not let them because of the twisted belief that they don't want to let the fans down.

But of course, there will be people who blame the talent for getting locked up in a contract for years on end with literally no way out on their end and no other discernible skills other than putting on the performance of a fight. The machine has taken advantage of these people for decades, and it's very idealistic to say that they should throw themselves at the mercy of the employer who will 100% retaliate against them and just not put on a show.

I'm just saying I feel bad for the people who are in a no-win situation through no fault of their own, because they're the ones who are going to get hit the worst on this, not... y'know... the human trafficker/rapist/sexual abuser(s).

I generally agree with this for 95% of the roster. But then there's the 5 % who have enough pull to do something (Cena, Cody, Punk, Roman, Becky maybe) but won't. I don't expect Liv Morgan or Chad Gable not to show. But Punk or Cody? I don't see why they at least can't threaten to no show.

[Cobra Commander]

5 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

TKO stock up to start the day? Not sure I’d have predicted that. 

stock prices and rational patterns might not be working hand-in-hand, not to mention the whole matter of people with computer programs to buy or sell stock if a certain event happens

I'm priming myself for this Rumble to still be better than the craptacular 2022 Rumble even with all the events going into this Rumble.

[odessasteps]

If I watched WWE, I’d probably be happy with a new director shooting the Rumble and hopefully not having a billion jump cuts.

[Godfrey]

Would a job action do anything if TKO is literally incapable of removing Vince without his own permission like is being reported? The worst part about this is that they could be negotiating with Vince to buy him out of the company because that might be the only way to get rid of him for good and that would make him even richer

Edited January 26 by Godfrey

[Infinit]

23 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

Are we at a point yet where we can just call using power imbalances to coerce sex "rape?" 

Hold a gun to a woman's head to get something she wasn't willing to give you voluntarily

vs

Hold her livelood, career, and financial well being to her head to get something she wasn't willing to give you voluntarily. 

Not the same but, god damn, it's close enough. 

This.

I read (I'm not going to listen to it) that Cornette and Last were making jokes about this whole situation.

While at the same time, Cornette probably did something similar to this when he coerced trainees in OVW to have those "hot tub sessions" with his wife.

 

[Dolfan in NYC]

I'm sure a) Vince's contract is super weird with a billion different poison pills if he gets fired, b) it's probably better PR-wise if they "mutually part ways" rather than him being terminated for cause, and c) he may be a stubborn enough goat that they'll only get him out with a long, protracted fight that no one wants right now. 

 

 

[piranesi]

     I want to clear one thing up. I'm not blaming anyone who didn't actually do it (journalists, wrestlers, fans). All I'm saying is that a lot of people are going to get a talk today from a very serious faced "front office guy" and it's going to go one of two ways:

     
     - "Listen you don't have to do anything. We are going to take care of this. He's gone. But you remember you have a moral and legal obligation to fulfill the contract you signed and to the WWE Universe."
    
    or like this
    
    - "This is a family. These accusations are lies and you have a moral and legal obligation to your contract and the WWE Universe and to the man who gave you this opportnity to live your dream and make a living doing it. Now get out there and show them that we are a FAMILY!"
    
    Either way they all have a choice to make. Not an easy one. not one I have to make right now so who am I to judge? The talk will be meant to give them just enough morally ambiguous wiggle room for their deeply felt fiduciary responsibility to the company that pays them and the industry that supports them to get through the Rumble so there isn't any permanent harm...to the business.
    
    For journalists. Cover the story. And if the WWE is your beat. You have a choice to make too when this all over. Podcasters, whoever. Am I going to damn you for making the choice? No, I can't. I have no authority to enforce any of what I'm saying. I'm nobody. Nothing bad will happen to anyone who makes the wrong choice. There's no harm or force to my words to these people at all.
    
    But will I judge them? Of course I will. Do they care? Of course not.
    
But here's the cool thing. No one needs to cover or talk about this company to make a living. And if everyone there, each individually, makes the right decision, and if eneryone at Netflix and ESPN and whoever else has a financial stake in this operation makes the right choice, there's no company to cover by Sunday.

Is it fair to feel like this about WWE and not the film industry, music industry, etc.? Man, I don't know. I don't know where the line is between human and inhuman and I don't have the moral authority to declare it. But in this one case, one that I didn't go searching out, but that smacked me in the face when I opened the news....I feel like I can say with confidence that this crosses that line. We can all see it. It's really clear.

When you hit the line, whether it's because of something you did or someone else, you have a choice. It's not an easy choice but you have to make it. Human or machine part. It's an easy choice in terms of $$$$$. Weirdly I fell like it should also be an easy choice in terms of your soul or ability to look at yourself, talk to your family, raise your kids, and not hate yourself forever.

Is that worth the 6 figures (minus travel expenses) or the 5 billion (poor poor stockholders! how many jobs!)...oh yeah, let's not forget they'll throw that into the speech. The threat. (You walk out on this company and thousands of jobs are as stake). that threat...I don't know man, it just sends into a rage. It sends me into a rage when they leverage that threat over some tax or something...but it really really pisses me off when they leverage that threat to justify continuing a system which commands that "they" (the top) can do anything to any one of us whenever they want and if anyone says a goddamn thing about "well then someone might lose some of those jooooobs ya'll so worried about."

 

Jobs. that don't even pay anymore. No benefits. No pension. You can't threaten people with jobs anymore. They all suck and not a single one of them is worth your soul. Not anymore.

Edited January 26 by piranesi

[Cobra Commander]

1 minute ago, Infinit said:

While at the same time, Cornette probably did something similar to this when he coerced trainees in OVW to have those "hot tub sessions" with his wife.

not to "well actually" too hard on an adjacent matter, but i'll point out that Cornette didn't marry Stacey until 2007 and he was released by the WWE in 2005, so anything before 2007 would have involved Cornette and his long-term girlfriend who just happened to work for his promotion as one of the lead heel managers, not Cornette and his wife.

I don't remember anything more than the basic details but wasn't most of the Cornette situation basically him, his wife, and people outside the business? like not exactly "randos on FetLife or AdultFriendFinder" but something in that vicinity?

[odessasteps]

6 minutes ago, Infinit said:

This.

I read (I'm not going to listen to it) that Cornette and Last were making jokes about this whole situation.

While at the same time, Cornette probably did something similar to this when he coerced trainees in OVW to have those "hot tub sessions" with his wife.

 

Yes, there is indeed “humor” (YMMV) poked at certain aspects of the story on that podcast, including things already warned about not discussing here. 

[Curt McGirt]

Going back to what I said about Vice, this will probably end up being just like the Secrets of Playboy miniseries that came out first on A&E and just showed up on Vice: Vince will die and there will be a Bible's worth of men and women crawling out from under every rock in the quarry to talk about it... but not until he's dead. And then it'll just be a miniseries, with WWE having a proclaimer printed on the air that says "World Wrestling Entertainment is not run by the McMahon family and we take every allegation seriously", before a rape crisis hotline number comes up on the screen. 

[Dog]

5 minutes ago, piranesi said:

 For journalists. Cover the story. And if the WWE is your beat. You have a choice to make too when this all over. Podcasters, whoever. Am I going to damn you for making the choice? No, I can't. I have no authority to enforce any of what I'm saying. I'm nobody. Nothing bad will happen to anyone who makes the wrong choice. There's no harm or force to my words to these people at all.
    
    But will I judge them? Of course I will.
 

So what happens, "when this is all over," if similar allegations crop up about another high-ranking individual in WWE? Should the Wall Street Journal not cover that? Not covering it only protects the abusers.

Quote

And if everyone there, each individually, makes the right decision, and if eneryone at Netflix and ESPN and whoever else has a financial stake in this operation makes the right choice, there's no company to cover by Sunday.

WWE is not its own entity anymore. Even if everyone whose check bore the logo a year ago walks out tomorrow, you can't dissolve an incorporated business overnight. Oh that's right, this is no time to talk about facts and how things actually work, right?

[piranesi]

"You knew what the job was when you signed up."

A lot of people in the media, Netflix, websites etc. are going to get that one as well when it comes time to write their glowing review of the Rumble or whatever.

But that's a lie to. No you didn't. They did not in that invterview say "BTW the comapny your covering is run by a sadistic rapist and you're just going have to kind of be willing to you now do the job anyway."

So don't buy that one either. You know the job now. And you so now you have that choice. It's not fair. It sucks. But it's also not avoidable.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

I'll amend my previous statement that there's something else that may force TKO to do something - if the sponsors pull out, since apparently Slim Jim has withdrawn their sponsorship.

But it's going to take pretty much all their sponsors (and, realistically, their TV partners), I'd imagine.

[piranesi]

10 minutes ago, Dog said:

So what happens, "when this is all over," if similar allegations crop up about another high-ranking individual in WWE? Should the Wall Street Journal not cover that? Not covering it only protects the abusers.

WWE is not its own entity anymore. Even if everyone whose check bore the logo a year ago walks out tomorrow, you can't dissolve an incorporated business overnight. Oh that's right, this is no time to talk about facts and how things actually work, right?

"How things actually work?"   Dude that is the wrong fucking thing to say right now. How things actually work is that rich old men can rape anyone's daughter whenever they want and very rarely does anyone even mention it. That's "How things work." Enjoy that, man. Cause you win. You're right. that's how things work.

But I don't care about entitites, logos, LLCs, contracts, legal fuckinng bullshit. If all goes the way it shoudl there won't be a company for the Wall Street Journal to cover. If there are crimes the Wall Streeet Journal should cover it. If there is financial fallout, the Wall Street Journal should cover it. But if everyone does the human thing, the Wall Street Journal won't have to cover anything but the destruction of the WWE over the next few days. Anything else means that a lot of people are choosing "machine part" as their life identity.

Is that going to happen? Of course not. Because that's not how things work* (*Machine part # 56784839)

Right now when I google WWE I see two things both in bright colors and nicely outlined windows:

 

"VINCE MCMAHON ACCUSED OF BRUTAL RAPE AND TORTURE"

and

"TOP PICKS FOR THE RUMBLE!!!!!! WILL DOINK SHOW UP?>??????"

You can't do both of those or be part of both of those at once and call yourself a rational moral human.

Edited January 26 by piranesi

[Infinit]

15 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

not to "well actually" too hard on an adjacent matter, but i'll point out that Cornette didn't marry Stacey until 2007 and he was released by the WWE in 2005, so anything before 2007 would have involved Cornette and his long-term girlfriend who just happened to work for his promotion as one of the lead heel managers, not Cornette and his wife.

I don't remember anything more than the basic details but wasn't most of the Cornette situation basically him, his wife, and people outside the business? like not exactly "randos on FetLife or AdultFriendFinder" but something in that vicinity?

Yes his gf/wife. Partner.

And what I had heard/read in the past was that their "adventures" included members of the OVW roster, which is why I mentioned this because of the power dynamics involved.

But then again, I wasn't there lol

[Cobra Commander]

6 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

Going back to what I said about Vice, this will probably end up being just like the Secrets of Playboy miniseries

I already mentioned Hefner earlier.. a certain amount of the trajectory of Playboy was negative before he died for a few reasons (trying to run a print magazine and internet porn). Wrestling is slightly better at being handed down from generation to generation than Adult Magazines. Even if both probably get hit by the Founder's Syndrome.

Looking at Wikipedia, apparently Hustler and Penthouse still publish issues. Both of them outlasted the print issues of Playboy despite logic to the contrary.

[jaedmc]

8 minutes ago, Stefanie Sparkleface said:

I'll amend my previous statement that there's something else that may force TKO to do something - if the sponsors pull out, since apparently Slim Jim has withdrawn their sponsorship.

But it's going to take pretty much all their sponsors (and, realistically, their TV partners), I'd imagine.

I swear anytime anyone says something about WWE's sponsors the first one I think of is....

STACKER 2.

That was a billion years ago now. But it's all I remember.

[odessasteps]

Wondering about the parallels between VKM and Bob Guccione. 

[odessasteps]

Just now, jaedmc said:

I swear anytime anyone says something about WWE's sponsors the first one I think of is....

STACKER 2.

That was a billion years ago now. But it's all I remember.

Karate Fighters