May 2023 Wrestling Talk

[odessasteps]

We talked about Bill Mercer in regards to JFK/Oswald news coverage before. Here's a clip of it.

https://www.cbs.com/shows/video/E6Gs90e6A8lPrXSSYw_2eoW8Z8Xz7dTR/

Edited May 28, 2023 by odessasteps

[The Natural]

Y'all need to see Ilja Dragunov vs. Dijak from NXT Battleground. It's a MOTYC. May be my new MOTY. Don't want you missing it as I originally was going to.

[Niners Fan in CT]

I've been watching a lot of older 80's house shows and often times the show did have the main event in the middle.  They'd usually end the show with a decent match but not the world title. 

I don't think the title has to go on last but it's all dependent on the show.  WrestleMania X8 always comes to mind where the heavyweight title should NOT have ended the show. Read the room. 

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

4 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I've been watching a lot of older 80's house shows and often times the show did have the main event in the middle.  They'd usually end the show with a decent match but not the world title. 

I don't think the title has to go on last but it's all dependent on the show.  WrestleMania X8 always comes to mind where the heavyweight title should NOT have ended the show. Read the room. 

If I'm not mistaken, the reason that was common in the WWF was because the title match would go before intermission, and intermission was where you could buy tickets for the next month. So you just got done seeing Hogan beat Muraco, get your tickets now to see Hogan vs Bundy next month, and so on. You couldn't have that kind of racket if the champ was on last.

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I've been watching a lot of older 80's house shows and often times the show did have the main event in the middle.  They'd usually end the show with a decent match but not the world title. 

I don't think the title has to go on last but it's all dependent on the show.  WrestleMania X8 always comes to mind where the heavyweight title should NOT have ended the show. Read the room. 

When you think about though and go back and watch the shows in the lead up, that's a benefit of hindsight thing where you're choosing the lesser of two evils. The only thing Jericho/HHH had going for it was Triple H returned, won the Rumble, and was clearly going to win the title. They spent so much time on his return in the prior months where even if they didn't have a dogshit (pun intended, I guess) buildup a month out that whoever would have been in that position short Austin or Rock wasn't going have much of a chance being a viable threat as champion. There was a weird unevenness going on with the roster where Jericho got put in a terrible position. Moreover, WrestleMania X8 is a very much a company in transition especially considering the next night is Lesnar's main roster debut. He becomes champion at SummerSlam that same calendar year.

As for Rock/Hogan, the NWO was over for maybe two or three weeks and then it became apparent they didn't have much of a plan. So much Rock had to do some Herculean (pun intended again?) type shit to carry the entire thing. Hogan was passable, but the bloom from 1996 wasn't there. People wanted yellow and red Hogan and not Nash and Hall following him around like two caretakers. They almost overbooked where at one point doesn't Rock get run over or some stupid shit like that? It was very bad crash TV. They almost fucked it up. However, there are one or two segments where Rock pumped some adrenaline in and kept it alive. So going into Toronto, even as an old WWF stomping ground, they (the WWF braintrust) probably thought we just hope Rock can get a passable match out of Hogan who may or may not be motivated and keep this NWO thing going on for a few more months. Dwayne Johnson was the life support for the whole thing. You can tell there are a couple shoot-y moments in some of those face to face segments where Dwayne is trying to summon up and inspire some stuff out of Terry Bollea that hasn't been there in at least four or five years at that point.

If you just watch that WrestleMania alone, you figure Hogan and Rock were having all time great promos and segments week after week and that's why you got an otherworldly atmosphere for the blowoff. That definitely wasn't the case. One guy was having ATG promos and the other guy was just present. He just happen to be Hulk Hogan. If that was under normal circumstances without Hogan, that's a third from the top at best match. So saying read the room is definitely simplifying it a little too much. Yes, Rock vs. Hogan probably should have been the main event but it had some stuff weighing it down just like the actual main event did.

 

[BrianS81177]

24 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

If I'm not mistaken, the reason that was common in the WWF was because the title match would go before intermission, and intermission was where you could buy tickets for the next month. So you just got done seeing Hogan beat Muraco, get your tickets now to see Hogan vs Bundy next month, and so on. You couldn't have that kind of racket if the champ was on last.

This and I believe it was also sometimes done so they could get Hogan out of the building and hustle him to another arena (like if he went on before intermission in Philly, they could get him to MSG in time for the main event)

[odessasteps]

I think it’s okay to not have the world title last if you have a cage match that necessitates it being last due to logistics. Or maybe a lights out grudge match, again where the stipulations mean it has to be last. I might be in the minority, but I think it’s okay to headline with the world tag team titles, if you have a hot feud (RnR vs MX, for example). 

[Dolphman 3000]

Was Sheamus beating Daniel Bryan at WrestleMania 28 the first World Title match to open a pay per view?

In times of a brand split, it makes sense to use one heavyweight title to pop the crowd in the opener when they're already guaranteed a second title match later in the card

[Elsalvajeloco]

40 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I think it’s okay to not have the world title last if you have a cage match that necessitates it being last due to logistics. Or maybe a lights out grudge match, again where the stipulations mean it has to be last. I might be in the minority, but I think it’s okay to headline with the world tag team titles, if you have a hot feud (RnR vs MX, for example). 

For me, I don't have a preference. However, if you have a multiple man match (tag match, six man, etc.) where it's going to be unbridled mayhem, you cannot finish the card with a straight 1-on-1. You've already trained the crowd throughout the show that you should only get up some crazy, convoluted highspots. So when hour 3 or 4 comes around, they are totally burnt out unless it's two people who are extremely over. If you have two or three per big tentpole show, you better hope that main event can replicate that same energy. World title or not.

If I had my druthers, I would rather have a show that's laid out to peak at the main event. 

[odessasteps]

It’s prob not easy nowadays with all the highspots and dangerous stuntman bumps up and down the card. Hard to imagine either company putting a lot of restrictions on talent so stuff can be saved for the main event. 

[Dolphman 3000]

3 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

It’s prob not easy nowadays with all the highspots and dangerous stuntman bumps up and down the card. Hard to imagine either company putting a lot of restrictions on talent so stuff can be saved for the main event. 

One interesting part of Tajiri's autobiography where he transcribed his diaries from working with WWE was that one of the roles of WWE agents was to make sure matches on the card weren't similar, and that one Vince-ism was "only every-other match on a card can have chops"

Seems like a lost art, and there's clearly some shows where agents don't talk to each other and the same spots get repeated in multiple matches

[Elsalvajeloco]

22 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

It’s prob not easy nowadays with all the highspots and dangerous stuntman bumps up and down the card. Hard to imagine either company putting a lot of restrictions on talent so stuff can be saved for the main event. 

You don't necessarily have to save something, but you've forced a gimmick match to be the main event because you're not going to top it. I think going on in general people aren't going to be equally invested in everything. That doesn't even happen under the best circumstances. If you're in front of a more work rate oriented crowd, the best match in ring on paper has to be the main event. Vice versa if you're in front of a more story driven crowd that's emotionally invested in one match above all. However, what comes before that is important. The three or four matches have to be different enough where you keep the crowd content but not different enough to lose them at some point. Unfortunately, sometimes, different is just add more wacky shit.

[Infinit]

1 hour ago, BrianS81177 said:

This and I believe it was also sometimes done so they could get Hogan out of the building and hustle him to another arena (like if he went on before intermission in Philly, they could get him to MSG in time for the main event)

Weren't title matches/main events also put on before intermission in buildings that had a curfew?

[elizium]

1 hour ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Was Sheamus beating Daniel Bryan at WrestleMania 28 the first World Title match to open a pay per view?

In times of a brand split, it makes sense to use one heavyweight title to pop the crowd in the opener when they're already guaranteed a second title match later in the card

I’m not sure what the first time was, but Edge and Alberto del Rio opened up a Wrestlemania for the World title before that one. 

[odessasteps]

11 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

You don't necessarily have to save something, but you've forced a gimmick match to be the main event because you're not going to top it. I think going on in general people aren't going to be equally invested in everything. That doesn't even happen under the best circumstances. If you're in front of a more work rate oriented crowd, the best match in ring on paper has to be the main event. Vice versa if you're in front of a more story driven crowd that's emotionally invested in one match above all. However, what comes before that is important. The three or four matches have to be different enough where you keep the crowd content but not different enough to lose them at some point. Unfortunately, sometimes, different is just add more wacky shit.

Like having multiple MITB or HITC matches on a show. Cant win for losing then. 

[Ziggy]

3 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

 

Seems like a lost art, and there's clearly some shows where agents don't talk to each other and the same spots get repeated in multiple matches

It's probably a generational gap thing with the wrestlers themselves too. I doubt too many people are going to be petty about using each others move like in the previous eras. You hear stories of guys getting upset about someone doing a move that's not even a finisher. 

I heard a story recently about supposedly Roman stopped Lana and Nia Jaxx from doing a table spot because he had a table spot planned for his segment even though Lana and Nia had a program built around tables at the moment. I don't know how true it was but diva stans were really hot about it.

As meticulous as alot of these matches are planned out these days , you'd think they'd have less people doing the same spots thar were done earlier in the card. Then again,  with wrestlers in the past not having having to plan thing out just as much probably was a reason you didn't see some of the same stuff over and over.

If you look at how NXT Evolved into more of and independent wrestling friendly brand, you can tell Hunter and now Shawn are more concerned with having better matches contemporary to modern wrestling outside of WWE and "stealing the show" and that had bled over to the main roster not long after before it was only the top guys or tenured guys were able to get away with having insane stuff done in there match. Now you have guys in the lower Midcard doing spots to each other to try to get over. Some times I think these agents in WWE just let anything fly nowadays 

[Eivion]

The conversation you are all having makes me hope some of you catch Battleground from Sunday. All the matches were good, fairly different from each other, and had a good interested crowd. 

[Dolphman 3000]

29 minutes ago, Ziggy said:

As meticulous as alot of these matches are planned out these days , you'd think they'd have less people doing the same spots thar were done earlier in the card. Then again,  with wrestlers in the past not having having to plan thing out just as much probably was a reason you didn't see some of the same stuff over and over.

It's like how stand-up comedy before the 1970s was very much a collaboration, and you'd get other comedians to tour with you on the vaudeville circuit and make sure before each show that you weren't doing the same jokes as the other guy.

"You're doing the one about the Rabbit tonight? Ok I'll do some prop comedy and close with my In-Law jokes."

And if there was a joke of someone else's you really liked, you could buy it from another comic and he'd promise not to use it again.

But then Los Angeles became competitive, and you'd have everyone accusing each other of stealing jokes. Robin Williams famously would get cornered by guys accusing him of stealing their material, and have to bribe them to go away.

I remember I was at some indie show 20 years ago with Kid Kash vs. AJ Styles, and a bunch of fans had seen them wrestle in another city the night before. Right before the finish, one of the fans yells out "SAME FINISH AS LAST NIGHT?" and Kash just started cracking up and yelled back "you know it brother!".

Cheap travel and videotape ruined the art of live performance. You no longer have to wait for the circus to come to town  - it's just a quick drive or click away.

[zendragon]

10 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

I've been watching a lot of older 80's house shows and often times the show did have the main event in the middle.  They'd usually end the show with a decent match but not the world title. 

I don't think the title has to go on last but it's all dependent on the show.  WrestleMania X8 always comes to mind where the heavyweight title should NOT have ended the show. Read the room. 

Back in the Bruno days there was a riot after the main event at MSG so they started running the title match before intermission cause the crowd wouldn’t riot if the new they where still getting Andre or what ever closing the show

[Salads]

11 hours ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

One interesting part of Tajiri's autobiography where he transcribed his diaries from working with WWE was that one of the roles of WWE agents was to make sure matches on the card weren't similar, and that one Vince-ism was "only every-other match on a card can have chops"

The link to the twitter thread translating Tajiri's autobiography was already posted last year, but I think it's worth linking again because it has been semi-regularly updated since and I doubt many others have been refreshing it for the last six months like I have. Last update was in April.

 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

4 hours ago, Salads said:

The link to the twitter thread translating Tajiri's autobiography was already posted last year, but I think it's worth linking again because it has been semi-regularly updated since and I doubt many others have been refreshing it for the last six months like I have. Last update was in

Thanks so much for this. Not sure if it was the same Twitter user but someone did this with Hakushi's diary from '95 and it was really, really cool. Track it down if you haven't seen it yet, highly recommend 

 

17 hours ago, Sparkleface said:

If I'm not mistaken, the reason that was common in the WWF was because the title match would go before intermission, and intermission was where you could buy tickets for the next month. So you just got done seeing Hogan beat Muraco, get your tickets now to see Hogan vs Bundy next month, and so on. You couldn't have that kind of racket if the champ was on last.

WWF did this kind of later than people realize. I remember the first house show I went to in 2002 at our then-new arena had Undertaker/Kane defending the Tag Team titles in a cage as the 'intermission' main event, and then Taz vs RVD closed the show for the Hardcore title. It was a Sunday matinee so I wonder if maybe that had something to do with it? 

[nofuture]

First Carmella and Tay, now Alexa.  It must be wrestling baby season.

[odessasteps]

Has she been off TV? Guess we will see her in 2024 sometime. 

[RIPPA]

12 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

Has she been off TV? Guess we will see her in 2024 sometime. 

Yes - she had a minor injury and also did Masked Singer

But the big reason she has been off is she was supposed to be a part of whatever story they had planned with Bray Wyatt

[The Natural]

26 minutes ago, nofuture said:

First Carmella and Tay, now Alexa.  It must be wrestling baby season.

Congratulations to all xxx.