AEW/ROH Finances, Ratings, etc.

[Cobra Commander]

21 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

What about the Undisputed Kingdom? The guys who made his life hell and took his title away?

they basically just killed that on his return where MJF dispatched Adam Cole.... so, it is what it is

[TheVileOne]

14 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

they basically just killed that on his return where MJF dispatched Adam Cole.... so, it is what it is

And therein lies one of the problems. AEW cannot carry out long-form stories and see them through. And they haven't been able to do this since Hangman beat Omega. This has been a recurring problem.

Wardlow hasn't wrestled on TV in over three months. Ricky Starks has all but disappeared. If it's frustrating for us, wouldn't it be frustrating for less dedicated viewers who want to get invested in these characters? What if someone was getting invested in the idea of Swerve Strickland wrestling Keith Lee after Swerve betrayed his tag team partner? They waited 20 years to book that match while booking Keith Lee in throwaway matches and pre-show matches for months. And when they finally got around to resuming this feud, Keith Lee was hurt and they could had to throw that feud away as well.

Edited June 23 by TheVileOne

[Technico Support]

I think filling TV with 95% JTTS matches is a large part of the problem.  When AEW had 4 PPVs per year, they could build to big matches on TV.  Now their TV is just something to fill time between their more frequent PPVs, where wrestlers who have matches on the PPV get reps in against people far below them, with no story or intrigue.  Like hey, Lady Frost is awesome, but I know she’s not beating Toni Storm a week before Forbidden Door.  And every show is like this.  There is almost no reason to watch unless you just love wrestling matches for the sake of wrestling matches.  

[Cobra Commander]

10 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

AEW cannot carry out long-form stories and see them through

leaving aside the question of "are the long-form stories actually good enough to be seen through", a bunch of guys getting hurt over and over is a bit of a problem too

and back to the question.. if the stories aren't good enough to be short-form, then they're not better if they get dragged out either

[TheVileOne]

13 minutes ago, Cobra Commander said:

leaving aside the question of "are the long-form stories actually good enough to be seen through", a bunch of guys getting hurt over and over is a bit of a problem too

and back to the question.. if the stories aren't good enough to be short-form, then they're not better if they get dragged out either

That would suggest that all the stories are not good.

[NoFistsJustFlips]

31 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

And therein lies one of the problems. AEW cannot carry out long-form stories and see them through. And they haven't been able to do this since Hangman beat Omega. This has been a recurring problem.

Wardlow hasn't wrestled on TV in over three months. Ricky Starks has all but disappeared. If it's frustrating for us, wouldn't it be frustrating for less dedicated viewers who want to get invested in these characters? What if someone was getting invested in the idea of Swerve Strickland wrestling Keith Lee after Swerve betrayed his tag team partner? They waited 20 years to book that match while booking Keith Lee in throwaway matches and pre-show matches for months. And when they finally got around to resuming this feud, Keith Lee was hurt and they could had to throw that feud away as well.

I tend to agree AEW has that problem too. Not that it changes the overall narrative but these few examples don't fit the trend. Wardlow blew out his knee. He's not 100%. The couple times they've had him in there since his injury just doing run in stuff he's been so ginger on it, it's almost not worth having him there at all. Which is why he hasn't been. That's not to saw AEW is off the hook. They've iced him before for zero reason. But this time it's injury related.

As is the Cole blowoff. He's still at least 6-9 months away from being able to come back. MJF is back now. They had two choices. MJF kills time with Roddy / Taven / Bennett for 6 months (in which case the Cole thing has zero steam left anyways when Cole can come back) or they pull the trigger on blowing it off so he can move on. I don't think how they handled it was especially productive. But how else can they really handle it? Cole isn't ready.

Keith Lee can't get cleared. Ricky Starks is a weird limbo deal where he had that injury, he says he's healthy, TK says he wishes Starks was available. It's all read between the lines shit but his bags are packed and I think TK is just icing him out and not giving him anymore TV equity since he knows Starks is gone the second he's able to leave. So yes booking limbo is a problem but not everyone that disappears fits that category.

 

29 minutes ago, Technico Support said:

I think filling TV with 95% JTTS matches is a large part of the problem.  When AEW had 4 PPVs per year, they could build to big matches on TV.  Now their TV is just something to fill time between their more frequent PPVs, where wrestlers who have matches on the PPV get reps in against people far below them, with no story or intrigue.  Like hey, Lady Frost is awesome, but I know she’s not beating Toni Storm a week before Forbidden Door.  And every show is like this.  There is almost no reason to watch unless you just love wrestling matches for the sake of wrestling matches.  

This. So much this. Enhancement matches can be a good tool in the tool bag that serve a greater purpose if they're leading to something. But far too often AEW just uses these matches for content churn. To fill time. It's one thing when WCW would do this with the weird Bobby Eaton vs Marty Jannetty or John Nord vs Jushin Liger matches they'd give us. But those matches weren't going a mandatory 15 minutes +, two segments, with a commercial break. Which gets me back to formatting being a big issue. Why does ever single Dynamite have to be 6 matches exactly? Why can't some have 8 matches? Why can't some have 10 six minute matches?

When you book the exact same amount of matches every week and they all go the same amount of time and all the promos fit in the same spots your show is going to feel rigid and stale. And to me that's a far bigger problem than anything else booking wise. Every show feels exactly the same. You get six matches. One is a womens match. And all the matches get about 15 minutes. Every week feels the same even if the matches and stories featured are different.

[Niners Fan in CT]

They opened Collision tonight with a trios match of Samoa Joe, Hook and Shibata vs. "The Premier Athletes".   I don't have an issue with squash matches at all but how do you open the show with stuff like this, you are literally begging the viewer to turn it off,  which I did because the Copa America and WNBA are more engaging to me than that.  

There was some good stuff on the show but now they are ending the show with Ospreay vs. Brian Cage.  Another main event where I have to assume the top guy is going over. 

I just don't understand the logic behind some of that match making.

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

3 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

This. So much this. Enhancement matches can be a good tool in the tool bag that serve a greater purpose if they're leading to something. But far too often AEW just uses these matches for content churn. To fill time. It's one thing when WCW would do this with the weird Bobby Eaton vs Marty Jannetty or John Nord vs Jushin Liger matches they'd give us. But those matches weren't going a mandatory 15 minutes +, two segments, with a commercial break. Which gets me back to formatting being a big issue. Why does ever single Dynamite have to be 6 matches exactly? Why can't some have 8 matches? Why can't some have 10 six minute matches?

When you book the exact same amount of matches every week and they all go the same amount of time and all the promos fit in the same spots your show is going to feel rigid and stale. And to me that's a far bigger problem than anything else booking wise. Every show feels exactly the same. You get six matches. One is a womens match. And all the matches get about 15 minutes. Every week feels the same even if the matches and stories featured are different.

The worst thing that ever happened to wrestling are people with their stopwatches going "there was X amount of wrestling on a wrestling show".

Yeah I'm sure there wasn't a ton of wrestling back on World Championship Wrestling back in the day, you tell Ric Flair or Tully Blanchard or Arn Anderson or Dusty Rhodes to shut up so we can have a 15 minute match between Tim Horner and Cougar Jay. Talk me into wanting to pay to see you wrestle. It's not house shows anymore, it's to keep my cable or streaming subscription. (Or I guess PPV if AEW's going to insist on keeping that.)

[Cobra Commander]

19 minutes ago, TheVileOne said:

That would suggest that all the stories are not good.

at the very least, I'd say that unless there's the foundation where you know this is going long, you gotta start with short and then if it is compelling, make it longer.. long for the sake of being long can really get stale

I think the list of "what could we do that the WWE doesn't do" has changed on several points from 2019 to 2024 and they can adjust to that, right?

[username]

I've said this before, but the value of a good match for the sake of a good match has never been lower. There's a ton of those nowadays, you skip this week and there there will be a ton of matches aiming to be just that next week. This is not the worst problem in the world (one can argue AEW are the ones mostly responsible for it) but when that is in many ways your main selling point it becomes an issue.

TBF I do recognize the efforts in place to add something more. The Elite deal while not everyone's cup of tea is an attempt to establish a narrative thread through much of the show each week and that is a good idea in theory. Having MJF not go after the Kingdom is kinda odd but if we are blunt the whole Devil deal was a slow moving disaster so I am fine with them deciding that they are better off forgetting about it. Not getting to Swerve/Keith initially was simple bad booking but the preponderance of evidence suggests that Lee is sadly washed now so it is what it is (sincerely hope that Lee finds health, how things have gone with him makes me think of Bray).

I do not discount the notion that after Punk had his interview comments re: AEW AEW several times went negative in the following month or so and spoiled the vibes for some, but I don't know that I fully buy it as a significant factor. 

[Matt D]

1 hour ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

They opened Collision tonight with a trios match of Samoa Joe, Hook and Shibata vs. "The Premier Athletes".   I don't have an issue with squash matches at all but how do you open the show with stuff like this, you are literally begging the viewer to turn it off,  which I did because the Copa America and WNBA are more engaging to me than that.  

It was just a ten minute match. It had a build over two weeks with multiple backstage segments. It was set up by the Premier Athletes having a promo package and winning a squash. It was to heat up the trio of Joe/Shibata/Hook to set up the post match of the Jericho match and the challenge. 

They did everything right! On paper it’s perfectly good booking. There was nothing more they could do!

There’s plenty they’re doing wrong but this was done exactly how it was supposed to be. There were no gaps. Seamless. Complain about something else. Or at least note that the issue is the theory and not the execution because the execution was perfect. You just weren’t paying attention.

Edited June 23 by Matt D

[Octopus]

AEW needs to put on good compelling television for a long period of time (matches/ stories/ production values) that people recognize it as appointment television and it is no longer cool to make fun of. You’ll always have haters, but the easy cliches used in every TikTok or Reddit post about AEW (sometimes earned) makes it not fun to even talk about enjoying the product. I know me saying “don’t suck for a while” is eyerollingly generic, but that’s what it comes down to. Past issues or decisions can be rectified if you’re consistently excellent. 

I don’t even really look at them as in trouble or anything too drastic until a bad tv deal, but speaking strictly as a very unimportant niche fan, I’m not having fun. Both keeping up with wrestling and talking about wrestling. Maybe it’s just me projecting life. Just make me happy, please. 

 

[zendragon]

I've said it before but for me to commit to a weekly wrestling show (or shows with how much content AEW provides) I want to feel like I'm stepping into a world.

When I would watch The Simpsons or Seinfeld of Scrubs it wasn't just "I hope there's some good jokes this week" its I want to see what the gang gets up to

[zendragon]

3 hours ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I tend to agree AEW has that problem too. Not that it changes the overall narrative but these few examples don't fit the trend. Wardlow blew out his knee. He's not 100%. The couple times they've had him in there since his injury just doing run in stuff he's been so ginger on it, it's almost not worth having him there at all. Which is why he hasn't been. That's not to saw AEW is off the hook. They've iced him before for zero reason. But this time it's injury related.

As is the Cole blowoff. He's still at least 6-9 months away from being able to come back. MJF is back now. They had two choices. MJF kills time with Roddy / Taven / Bennett for 6 months (in which case the Cole thing has zero steam left anyways when Cole can come back) or they pull the trigger on blowing it off so he can move on. I don't think how they handled it was especially productive. But how else can they really handle it? Cole isn't ready.

Keith Lee can't get cleared. Ricky Starks is a weird limbo deal where he had that injury, he says he's healthy, TK says he wishes Starks was available. It's all read between the lines shit but his bags are packed and I think TK is just icing him out and not giving him anymore TV equity since he knows Starks is gone the second he's able to leave. So yes booking limbo is a problem but not everyone that disappears fits that category.

 

This. So much this. Enhancement matches can be a good tool in the tool bag that serve a greater purpose if they're leading to something. But far too often AEW just uses these matches for content churn. To fill time. It's one thing when WCW would do this with the weird Bobby Eaton vs Marty Jannetty or John Nord vs Jushin Liger matches they'd give us. But those matches weren't going a mandatory 15 minutes +, two segments, with a commercial break. Which gets me back to formatting being a big issue. Why does ever single Dynamite have to be 6 matches exactly? Why can't some have 8 matches? Why can't some have 10 six minute matches?

When you book the exact same amount of matches every week and they all go the same amount of time and all the promos fit in the same spots your show is going to feel rigid and stale. And to me that's a far bigger problem than anything else booking wise. Every show feels exactly the same. You get six matches. One is a womens match. And all the matches get about 15 minutes. Every week feels the same even if the matches and stories featured are different.

I'm guessing pretty much every match (sometimes even the "in action" squashes) going through PIP is a network directive

[Go2Sleep]

3 hours ago, Technico Support said:

I think filling TV with 95% JTTS matches is a large part of the problem.  When AEW had 4 PPVs per year, they could build to big matches on TV.  Now their TV is just something to fill time between their more frequent PPVs, where wrestlers who have matches on the PPV get reps in against people far below them, with no story or intrigue.  Like hey, Lady Frost is awesome, but I know she’s not beating Toni Storm a week before Forbidden Door.  And every show is like this.  There is almost no reason to watch unless you just love wrestling matches for the sake of wrestling matches.  

This is probably a pretty significant factor for TV ratings specifically. There isn't much most weeks that you feel like you need to see right away. I think the shows recently have been very enjoyable, but even if you didn't factor in other reasons I can't watch AEW live, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out by watching them a couple days later. "Foregone conclusion matches going way longer than they need to" is a problem that dates all the way back to the first 3 hour Raws, but AEW's big selling point is great matches, and it seems like they've forgotten part of a great match is the suspense. The excessive amount of belts is a big "general direction" problem too, but I don't know if as many lapsed AEW viewers would single that out specifically.

I've said before, but they could get so much more juice out of the ranking system by looking at it more like NFL standings. The best teams still take some Ls from teams they shouldn't every year. Like why couldn't Rush go over MJF last week? Imagine what that would do for not just Rush, but for the core idea that all these back and forth matches could actually go either way.

[The Green Meanie]

3 hours ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

They opened Collision tonight with a trios match of Samoa Joe, Hook and Shibata vs. "The Premier Athletes".   I don't have an issue with squash matches at all but how do you open the show with stuff like this, you are literally begging the viewer to turn it off,  which I did because the Copa America and WNBA are more engaging to me than that. 

The viewer that enjoys those wrestlers won't change the channel because they enjoy seeing the wrestlers they like. I'm one of those viewers. I don't see issues with this kind of match booking. I get to see wrestlers I like, and that's what matters to me. When it time for wrestling, I'm going to watch wrestling, and not consider watching something else.

[username]

2 hours ago, Matt D said:

It was just a ten minute match. It had a build over two weeks with multiple backstage segments. It was set up by the Premier Athletes having a promo package and winning a squash. It was to heat up the trio of Joe/Shibata/Hook to set up the post match of the Jericho match and the challenge. 

I think the issue is more that they lead off the show with it when it is at best effective filler. The Premier Athletes are firmly established as JTTSs and AEW often has the mistaken notion that giving a cold act a jobber squash right before they face an act with a pulse adds any degree of suspense when... well the pattern is very firmly established.
 

Or to put it another way, nothing they did changed it from a foregone conclusion and if it is a foregone conclusion with one cold act it doesn't need 10 minutes. That said it is more of a minor complaint/symptom than anything to really get hung up on.

[Matt D]

3 hours ago, username said:

I think the issue is more that they lead off the show with it when it is at best effective filler. The Premier Athletes are firmly established as JTTSs and AEW often has the mistaken notion that giving a cold act a jobber squash right before they face an act with a pulse adds any degree of suspense when... well the pattern is very firmly established.
 

Or to put it another way, nothing they did changed it from a foregone conclusion and if it is a foregone conclusion with one cold act it doesn't need 10 minutes. That said it is more of a minor complaint/symptom than anything to really get hung up on.

I get what you’re saying but can you list any other Pro-Wrestling ever that’s been booked differently. The problem is yes, the lack of a proper mid card, but way more than that it's the addition of more PPVs, but that’s where the surprise is now. They’re booking to build towards the PPVs in logical fashion. I don’t know who’s winning in that six man at the PPV.

Rush beating MJF would have been the opposite of that. 

Basically there’s no winning. I will say that the rise of multi-man tags that toss a bunch of feuds together is helping and that's probably the best answer if they're not going to cut back on PPVs. That and leaning on a huge roster to have feuds not leading to the PPVs constantly on the show alongside feuds that are. But again, that's less productive TV as opposed to now where basically 80% of everything is ultimately leading to the PPVs.

Edited June 23 by Matt D

[ExcellenceofAirPollution]

For people complaining about MJF vs. Hechicero (who's clearly in their plans) who would you rather have him face?  And keep in mind the Rush match couldn't be on the show and he's going to be in an inter-promotional match where there's politics involved.  Would MJF vs. Evil be more attractive?  This will probably be a really good match at least and I'm looking forward to seeing MJF on the mat

Personally I think it's a pretty weak complaint.  You could have left MJF off the show completely.  These shows have historically done well based on it being AEW v. New Japan and he's never been a big part of them.  Nobody bought the first one to see if he could carry a broken down Tana.  It's also possible that CMLL wanted him wrestling one of their guys because they perceive him as a big star.  Maybe they want him to work Arena Mexico

And if we're concerned about ratings, a couple things:  At least for now I'm putting big MJF matches on TV to try to pop a rating, PPV doesn't need him until he's in a main event worthy match.  AEWs PPV numbers are relatively strong.  And isn't there a big Mexican-American audience they should be going after?  Maybe putting MJF against guys like Rush and Hechicero is in service of that

[just drew]

I still think they should sign Ricochet, if for no other reason than because Ospreay REALLY seems to want it. You keep that guy happy. But I also think you have to move whatever mountains necessary to sign Becky. Regardless of where you gauge Mercedes' star power, she was off TV for over a year before being able to debut for AEW. Becky was just in a main event spot and is a proven draw and merch mover. You clear as much salary cap as you need to for a player like her. Get it done, TK.

[AxB]

All of this talk and talk and talk about a low rating, that's still higher than the half a million that WBD said they'd be happy with. It's a load of nonsense.

Do fans of soap operas go on the internet and rant and rave about how Eastenders is crushing Coronation Street, and go LOLEmmerdale or LOLHollyoaks? I don't think they do. They watch the shows they like, which is usually all of them.

[Niners Fan in CT]

9 hours ago, Matt D said:

There’s plenty they’re doing wrong but this was done exactly how it was supposed to be. There were no gaps. Seamless. Complain about something else. Or at least note that the issue is the theory and not the execution because the execution was perfect. You just weren’t paying attention.

Nobody will care is my point because nobody cares about "The Premier Athletes".  You can't say "well they built this over two weeks so it's all good" when it's guys that were barely ever on TV prior to that.  When was the last time Tony Nese was a featured act?  That's another problem with AEW. People just disappear for months.  Unfortunately some fans are the dog sitting in the burning house saying "this is fine" and don't want change.  

Edited June 23 by Niners Fan in CT

[Niners Fan in CT]

8 hours ago, The Green Meanie said:

The viewer that enjoys those wrestlers won't change the channel because they enjoy seeing the wrestlers they like. I'm one of those viewers. I don't see issues with this kind of match booking. I get to see wrestlers I like, and that's what matters to me. When it time for wrestling, I'm going to watch wrestling, and not consider watching something else.

There's dozens of wrestlers in AEW that I love to watch but they have to give me something more than a randomized list of feuds/matches with no stakes.  I understand that the tagline is ""this is where the best wrestle" and when I watch an AEW PPV..   they prove that every single time.  It's still where the best wrestling is.  But the difference between the PPVs and TV is that we are seeing two guys or two women where the outcome isn't a foregone conclusion.  There's a 50% chance it could either way.  Or maybe it's just a 70-30 chance.  But most matches these days on Dynamite or Collision are not that.  

[Matt D]

6 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

There's dozens of wrestlers in AEW that I love to watch but they have to give me something more than a randomized list of feuds/matches with no stakes.  I understand that the tagline is ""this is where the best wrestle" and when I watch an AEW PPV..   they prove that every single time.  It's still where the best wrestling is.  But the difference between the PPVs and TV is that we are seeing two guys or two women where the outcome isn't a foregone conclusion.  There's a 50% chance it could either way.  Or maybe it's just a 70-30 chance.  But most matches these days on Dynamite or Collision are not that.  

One might ask "Matt, why did you interact with Niners here?" and to that I'd say that it's always useful to go back and forth on this sort of thing. I just wrote this out for someone else and I wouldn't have been able to hone my thoughts without the board, so thank you for that.
 

Spoiler

I’ve decided the problem is the added PPVs. You can’t have a workrate promotion based primarily around matches on TV and still build to almost monthly PPVs

On paper, the build to Learning tree vs Joe/HOOK/Shibata has been very good.

They gave both sides something to do while keeping them apart. For the latter, that meant the Premier Athletes. Week 1 they gave them a promo video on Collision. Week 2 they gave them a quash match. Meanwhile on Dynamite they did the deal where there was the match/beatdown/save to set things up, the locker room assault, and then the locker room assault with a note there on dynamite.

And it led to a short! (10 minute) match to start off collision to blow it off and heat up Joe's team for them to come out and interrupt Jericho's beatdown of Private Party (the story there was fine too) after their match.

And everyone hates it because they don't take the Premier Athletes seriously despite the fact that they were built up over a few weeks and there was an angle behind it. Or I see so many people griping that it would have been interesting and surprising for Rush to beat MJF. How would have that helped the PPV unless Hechicero led to the finish which would have made no sense and would have been annoying in its own way? MJF is just back. He shouldn't be losing yet.

Some of this is the lack of a built up midcard, but I'd almost argue that you can't set up one in the way that people want if they have to build to monthly PPVs.

THAT is where the stars lose. I don't know who's winning in that Learning Tree match. But Tony is booking to build to that PPV match where the question is and he's building predictable, logical TV along the way. Building blocks coming together in a very fundamental way. And it's not at all exciting.

If you look at Smackdown that everyone loved, most of the story wasn't put forward via a match, but that goes against AEW's identity of giving good long matches every week. It was ok before the extra PPVs because you could do just a couple of predictable shows leading to the shows where things were in question (or have one such thing every week because you didn't have to blow off so many feuds at monthly PPVs). Now it's a mess.

 

[Octopus]

2 hours ago, AxB said:

All of this talk and talk and talk about a low rating, that's still higher than the half a million that WBD said they'd be happy with. It's a load of nonsense.

Do fans of soap operas go on the internet and rant and rave about how Eastenders is crushing Coronation Street, and go LOLEmmerdale or LOLHollyoaks? I don't think they do. They watch the shows they like, which is usually all of them.

I still think Days of Our Lives killing off Stefeno was a mistake