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AEW Dynamite - 5/5/2021 - Cody vs QT Edition!


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9 minutes ago, Goodear said:

You're engaging in a false dichotomy. You seem to be saying the choice is between either a) falling off a high thing onto crash pads or b) falling through a high thing onto concrete. You could just not fall off the high thing at all. That way you don't have to do something that either looks bad or scrambles Matt Hardy's brains across the pavement. Or you could learn to shoot things effectively but AEW production seems really bad at that.

Exactly.  I don't think anyone here wants a return to Foley-type shit.  It's just that if you are going to do the big fall, make it look good.  Make it safe, first, but then make it look good.  If you can't make it safe, don't do it.  If you can't make it look good, don't do it.

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9 minutes ago, Goodear said:

 You could just not fall off the high thing at all. 

Yep, as I said - WWE has twenty years of people doing those bumps. Shit - Shane McMahon was thrown OFF a cage a month ago. Nothing you do is gonna look better than what WWE does so figure out different stunts or just put a moratorium on guys falling high places for a while. 

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Goodear said:

Wait, wait, wait.  My impression of your argument was that they had to threaten to throw Jericho off the top because if MJF did something like threaten to stab him in the eye, that would take too long and The Inner Circle could just grab a different hostage.

My only derivation from the situation we got is what MJF is threatening Jericho with so we don't have to throw Jericho off a cage. This could all happen exactly the same otherwise including being on top of the cage so The Inner Circle can't just run over and stop MJF. Am I misunderstanding your position?

That's pretty much it.  The finish is set up so that IC is forced to either capitulate or endanger Jericho by their inactivity.   If he tries to break Jericho's arm to force a submission inside the cage, Santana can stab someone in the eye since he's already got a fork handy or Hagar can go to work on Spear's injured ankle.  Now it's a race to see who gets who to tap out first.

Alternatively, the IC could simply force a break by bashing MJF with pieces of what was left of the stage left ring.  What Pinnacle member would've been able to  prevent that?   By that time, they were already bloody and beaten down.  MJF's escape provides opportunity for his team to regroup and forces all of the IC to respond to MJF's ultimatum.  We at home know that MJF is a dishonorable dick, but the IC guys make a Fog of War decision in the heat of the moment in the hope that Jericho will be spared.

Jericho is not spared because MJF is a heel and heels do heel things.

And yes, MJF is on the top of the cage so there is no hope of getting to Jericho in time for a rescue.  IC has to either save their friend or win the match.  They choose to save their friend and MJF tosses him anyway because he's a dick and because he hopes that the fall will put Jericho on the shelf if not end his career altogether.

MJF has chopped off the head of the snake, so to speak.  WG booking practically leads you by the nose to the finish.

And I totally agree that if you can't make something look good AND safe, you shouldn't book it but things ended the way they did because we were already conditioned by the apeshit spots in the match to believe that no single guy in that match would submit on his own and cost his team a victory.  Someone else would have to to surrender on his behalf; someone with a sense of honor so that means a loss for the babyfaces. 

The booking of the match and the nature of the WG gimmick match has more bearing on the finish than a normal cage match or HITC.  MJF had to take drastic action to get the win for himself... and his team... so he did and Jericho had to be put into enough extreme jeopardy that IC would have no choice but to surrender.

Edited by J.T.
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There's other issues here as it pertains to the story being told.

WHAT WAS INTENDED - MJF is going to throw Jericho off the cage. Sammy doesn't want that to happen, so he surrenders. MJF throws Jericho off the cage anyways, Jericho is badly hurt. MJF looks evil.

WHAT HAPPENED - MJF is going to throw Jericho off the cage. Sammy doesn't want that to happen, so he surrenders. MJF throws Jericho off the cage anyways, the actual fall doesn't look as painful as the violence committed during the Inner Circle control segment. Sammy looks stupid.

This isn't the first great match with a bad finish, and it will not be the last. The finish does not invalidate the good things that happened in the 40 minutes before it. But it's a nit worth picking.

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8 minutes ago, Goodear said:

You're engaging in a false dichotomy. You seem to be saying the choice is between either a) falling off a high thing onto crash pads or b) falling through a high thing onto concrete. You could just not fall off the high thing at all. That way you don't have to do something that either looks bad or scrambles Matt Hardy's brains across the pavement. Or you could learn to shoot things effectively but AEW production seems really bad at that.

This is a little more rational of a reply.

But it's not a false dichotomy because the prevailing opinion seems to be it was a bad idea because it didn't look like it hurt enough. I'm not off base with that summation right? I'm fairly sure that bump hurt more in real life than any single bump in the ring tonight. That's what annoys me from that side of the argument. Yes it was padded. But gravity is still a thing. It wasn't a full on blown up stunt man crash pad they use in movies that's inflated with 30 feet of air. The stage below the crash pad is solid and made of concrete and steel. It didn't give an inch. So the rigid foam or whatever, surely hurt less than steel and concrete... but still probably hurt a fair amount. And every here is acting like it was 50 feet of pillows and feathers.

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I watched just the second hour of Dynamite for Blood and Guts. Absolutely loved it. First time I've ever seen this type of match live and I couldn't get enough. Unpredictable, violent and crazy.

 

I had no issue with the ending ... protects the IC and gives them a reason to seek revenge down the road. 

 

To be honest, I'm curious to see what Cody can get out of Ogogo, who has been stuck on neutral far more than Jade Cargill. All I've seen out of him is that he has charisma, is a powerful puncher and has trouble dressing and undressing himself. He's got to start showing more in ring.

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Thinking about the possibility of them running another Stadium Stampede match with DoN with Pinnacle vs Jericho-less Inner Circle - what's Mike Tyson got in his schedule for the next month?

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2 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

This is a little more rational of a reply.

But it's not a false dichotomy because the prevailing opinion seems to be it was a bad idea because it didn't look like it hurt enough. I'm not off base with that summation right? I'm fairly sure that bump hurt more in real life than any single bump in the ring tonight. That's what annoys me from that side of the argument. Yes it was padded. But gravity is still a thing. It wasn't a full on blown up stunt man crash pad they use in movies that's inflated with 30 feet of air. The stage below the crash pad is solid and made of concrete and steel. It didn't give an inch. So the rigid foam or whatever, surely hurt less than steel and concrete... but still probably hurt a fair amount. And every here is acting like it was 50 feet of pillows and feathers.

I would argue the art of wrestling is the balancing of things being safe and looking dangerous. If you shoot the fall correctly than you accomplish both goals of if being safe while not looking safe.  I would assume most of the people who didn't like the fall thought it seemed too safe looking to be effective not that they wanted Jericho to die. I think @Logreally nailed what people are having a problem with and why they have an issue.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

WHAT HAPPENED - MJF is going to throw Jericho off the cage. Sammy doesn't want that to happen, so he surrenders. MJF throws Jericho off the cage anyways, the actual fall doesn't look as painful as the violence committed during the Inner Circle control segment. Sammy looks stupid.

The only reason the fall does not look painful is because you at home are not the one taking it and you have your pro wrestling movie physics hat on, right?  Yes, from a production standpoint the spot looked REALLY bad, but I give Jericho the benefit of the doubt for signing up for the spot in the hope that he would put on a good show.

I also cannot fault Sammy for kayfabe having his heart in the right place and throwing in the towel.  Wanting his mentor and friend to be spared injury from a fall from that height is not a sign of stupidity.  I think you start your journey down the slippery slope of smarkdom when you start thinking like that.

It might've been a good touch to sell the harm from the fall by having Jericho stretchered out full neck brace and everything, but how big of a pisser ending to you want to send the audience home with?  Is Jericho going to sell this with an injury angle of more than a couple of months?  How long can you afford to keep him off camera?  The book needs to answer these questions before setting up these spots.

Edited by J.T.
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2 minutes ago, Goodear said:

I would argue the art of wrestling is the balancing of things being safe and looking dangerous. If you shoot the fall correctly than you accomplish both goals of if being safe while not looking safe.  I would assume most of the people who didn't like the fall thought it seemed too safe looking to be effective not that they wanted Jericho to die. I think @Logreally nailed what people are having a problem with and why they have an issue.

If that's your side of it, I can understand that and will let you specifically off the hook.

But other people in this thread have straight up said if you're not gonna Foley it, then don't do it. That's not saying they want it shot better. That's them saying they want him to land unprotected on a table and maybe dislocate his shoulder like Foley did. That's them saying they want him to land unprotected on the ring below and maybe have his teeth knocked out and his jaw dislocated like Foley did. That's not them wanting to balance safety and looking dangerous. That's them wanting a performer to give of his body on a scale that's totally selfish of them to ask for.

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Saying it didn't look like it hurt or it looked bad or whatever...how in the hell did that not look like it hurt? He crashed through a floor with less padding than usual and did so after being thrown off of AEW's tall ass cage. For the people that say it didn't look like it hurt, would YOU want to be throw off a cage and through a floor like that even if there was some padding underneath? I'm sure as fuck not doing that. As for how it looked, it looked fine. 

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1 minute ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

If that's your side of it, I can understand that and will let you specifically off the hook.

But other people in this thread have straight up said if you're not gonna Foley it, then don't do it. That's not saying they want it shot better. That's them saying they want him to land unprotected on a table and maybe dislocate his shoulder like Foley did. That's them saying they want him to land unprotected on the ring below and maybe have his teeth knocked out and his jaw dislocated like Foley did. That's not them wanting to balance safety and looking dangerous. That's them wanting a performer to give of his body on a scale that's totally selfish of them to ask for.

That was one person. To my eye, that reads as taking the "don't do it" side of the if/then proposition. If you find someone literally demanding the Foley bump, by all means have it out with them. 

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, J.T. said:

The only reason the fall does not look painful is because you at home are not the one taking it and you have your pro wrestling movie physics hat on, right?  Yes, from a production standpoint the spot looked kinda bad, but I give Jericho the benefit of the doubt for signing up for the spot in the hope that he would put on a good show.

I am not an authority on the subject, but I have a moderate amount of legitimate stage combat training and have fallen onto crash pads of varying sizes from varying heights. None nearly as large as Jericho, but enough to get the wind knocked out of me.  And I mighta bumped through a bunch of cardboard boxes off the roof of my parents' garage in high school but who didn't?

Nothing I'm saying is a knock on Jericho - this is a knock on the production (camera, stage, rehearsals) and the booking that didn't take the production into account. The obviousness of the crash pad makes the spot look faker than it was. This is why we have to tell our non-wrestling fan friends how much wrestling actually hurts the performers - if it looks more fake than real, audiences often dismiss the whole thing.

Edited by John E. Dynamite
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I can’t remember who the wrestler is/was, but I remember talk of a guy who threw terrible-looking punches that actually hurt his opponents. 
 

That’s what Jericho’s bump reminds me of. I’m sure it did hurt, but that doesn’t mean it looked good. 

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Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, John E. Dynamite said:

Nothing I'm saying is a knock on Jericho - this is a knock on the production (camera, stage, rehearsals) and the booking that didn't take the production into account. The obviousness of the crash pad makes the spot look faker than it was. This is why we have to tell our non-wrestling fan friends how much wrestling actually hurts the performers - if it looks more fake that real, audiences often dismiss the whole thing.

I agree that the cameras could've been in better places, but hey the fall was real.  Everyone seems to have issues with the impact.  

I suppose you could've done the ECW thing and sink the crash pads five or so more feet into the stage and have Jericho fall through the stage ala Taz vs Bam Bam Bigelow, but you're still asking a 50 year old guy who is not really a trained professional stunt person to do this. 

Owen Hart died taking a protected drop while wearing a harness and Jericho is falling with nothing but a crash bag to land on and his spine to absorb the impact.  Yeah, I wish the spot could've looked cleaner, but I am also happy Jericho is alive to tell the tale.   That was an unnecessary risk, IMO.

Jericho took an unprotected fall of close to 50 feet and he's not even eyespotting where he's going to land!  Holy fuck!    

A trained stuntperson probably would've had a harness on and had the harness CGIed out in post production..... unless these guy is Hong Kong or Indonesian stunt double.   Those fuckers are completely insane.

Edited by J.T.
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Well, anyway, there's not going to be really any budging from either side so whatever. Let's instead focus on Schiavone calling MJF a piece of shit because that was fucking hilarious and broke me. 

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I'm not trying to stir shit up for no reason, but I've seen a million gifs of the bump since last night, and I'll be honest: in retrospect, I still don't even think it looked that bad!! Shane came off the cell at that Mania in Dallas and it looked like the announce table was sitting on top of the fucking Blob from Heavyweights!! I really didn't see a ton of movement like that

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I think some of the issue might be that the match leading up to the bump was so violent. If it’d been more of a straight match with that sort of bump at the end, it’d be ok. Two teams just tried to murder each other for 30 minutes and then it ends on a safe-looking (notice I said “looking”, I do realize the danger in that bump) bump. 

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10 minutes ago, J.T. said:

I suppose you could've done the ECW thing and sink the crash pads five or so more feet into the stage and have Jericho fall through the stage ala Taz vs Bam Bam Bigelow, but you're still asking a 50 year old guy who is not really a trained professional stunt person to do this.

I don't actually even think this was possible in this case. It's a legitimate stage built into the venue, not a stage built for the AEW shows. I know the Kahns own the building but it's not really possible to structurally destroy a part of their venue and rebuild it for one bump on one wrestling show. Well I guess it's possible. Just not practical.

Moving away from the big bump argument, I really liked how the match played out. The Dax & Sammy opening 5 has got to be up there with the best opening segments ever right? Wish the commercials were timed better with regard to the match plot points. Missing Wardlow's entrance, Tully getting the key, making Jericho stall while climbing the cage... all that did mess with the natural flow. Still loved the match and the amount of violence they brought. Just one man's opinion, but this smoked all the NXT wargames matches.

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2 minutes ago, NoFistsJustFlips said:

I don't actually even think this was possible in this case. It's a legitimate stage built into the venue, not a stage built for the AEW shows. I know the Kahns own the building but it's not really possible to structurally destroy a part of their venue and rebuild it for one bump on one wrestling show. Well I guess it's possible. Just not practical.

Moving away from the big bump argument, I really liked how the match played out. The Dax & Sammy opening 5 has got to be up there with the best opening segments ever right? Wish the commercials were timed better with regard to the match plot points. Missing Wardlow's entrance, Tully getting the key, making Jericho stall while climbing the cage... all that did mess with the natural flow. Still loved the match and the amount of violence they brought. Just one man's opinion, but this smoked all the NXT wargames matches.

I think I have this tied, maybe slightly ahead of the first NXT War Games match, which I think is still their best one. At the time, their War Games match was one of the damnedest things I had ever seen. It was fun as fuck, it didn't go on too long, Killian Dain was the motherfuckin MVP in that thing, AOP did some really cool shit, KOR and Fish were straight fucking people up. If that match had blood like Blood and Guts had, I think it would be my favorite War Games match ever.

The opening of this match, some of the shit with Wardlow, all of the wild brawling all over the place, and 4/5ths of the people in the match bleeding all over the place puts it a little bit ahead.

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Posted (edited)

Great show!  Incredibly hokey finish.  That said, I sorta wish I had the ability to suspend my disbelief to the level of the ppl that thought that finish was remotely decent.  

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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And if I had one criticism for Blood and Guts, it would be that the end of it leading into that final commercial break felt a little like everyone already ran through their spots and ran out of things to do. The crowd also seemed to die down at that point. Not sure if it was because they were spent or the match running out of steam caused them to quiet down or what. I think if you ran another match or segment leading into the Blood and Guts match, not another interview mind you, to just take 10 minutes away from Blood and Guts then it would have been nearly perfect.

That way, the ending with Jericho and MJF would have come at a time where there was still wild brawling going on. That way, you have the chaos in the ring distracting the two teams from what's going on above or it prevents them from leaving.

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I feel like the closing angle would've worked better if they didn't actually show it at first. Hear me out.

Start with cameras on MJF celebrating after tricking the IC into surrendering. Then switch to the IC outside the structure, consoling each other... only to panic as MJF pushes Jericho. *Crash bang thud* off-camera as he hits the pad. The production truck "misses the shot" the first time since "they weren't expecting MJF to actually do it," and gives them a few moments to find a better looking shot.

Kind of a shame everyone is focusing on this aspect, since it was such a killer match even with the multiple camera breaks. Tony Khan should take a page from the soccer playbook (especially due to the Fulham thing) and see about getting sponsors to put their logo on-screen during the match in lieu of commercials. I mean just imagine the comedy value of "Venus For Pubic Hair & Skin" sponsoring this bloodbath main event for 10-15 minutes.

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Personally, I think we should be spending more time talking about the triumphant return of Technique by Taz.  It’s about time somebody called out Christian for his weak quads.

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3 minutes ago, EVA said:

Personally, I think we should be spending more time talking about the triumphant return of Technique by Taz.  It’s about time somebody called out Christian for his weak quads.

You mean asides from Edge & Christian both making fun of Christians chicken legs?

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