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MARCH 2021 Discussion of Wrestling.


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Sidenote: And that's not even to criticize promotions for running high schools. I mean WWF was doing Raw tapings at high schools at the same time due to poor arena business.

I watched one recently from Liberty, NY from December 94. It's funny cause I saw just "LIBERTY CENTRAL - LIBERTY, NY" on the upper third graphic and Vince is screaming how they're emanating from the Borscht Belt. And I'm thinking, "are they in a weird looking nightclub that I don't know about and this predates the first iteration of Shotgun Saturday Night where they got the DX tron B-roll footage from?" Then, I realized, "Yeah, they're in a fucking high school gymnasium" and it's just Vince is the only motherfucker with the balls big enough to pretend he ISN'T doing national TV in the mid 90s from a high school gymnasium. 

My point is it would be crazy for me to criticize SMW because their production from a high school gym didn't look as glitzy (well as glitzy as you can considering the circumstances) as the WWF from the same type of venue. However, there are tiers. There is what SMW was doing. Several tiers up is what AEW is doing (even for their technical issues). And then several tiers up from that is WWE. Everyone is and where they should be. However, if you were on the bottom tier and you personally were responsible for that, I don't know if you have room for such harsh criticism. 

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I wonder if it would be a more fair comparison to compare the ROH production, since its 10+ years later and owned some of the time during JC's tenure by a TV company. 

IIRC, Rubin's financing of SMW was some but not a huge ton of money (relatively speaking) I want to say the SMW losses by the end were still only a few hundred thousand dollars, compare that to how much Paul owed like 4 of 5 years later with ECW. 

Cavaet: at work and unable to do hard research at present. 

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8 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Welcome to the year 2003. 🤣

Alright listen you, you can't just drop a fact like "The acclaimed producer of Licensed to Ill was the financial backer for Jim Cornette's weird-but-influential regional wrestling promotion" and expect me to internalize it instantly.

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7 minutes ago, odessasteps said:

I wonder if it would be a more fair comparison to compare the ROH production, since its 10+ years later and owned some of the time during JC's tenure by a TV company. 

IIRC, Rubin's financing of SMW was some but not a huge ton of money (relatively speaking) I want to say the SMW losses by the end were still only a few hundred thousand dollars, compare that to how much Paul owed like 4 of 5 years later with ECW. 

Cavaet: at work and unable to do hard research at present. 

To be fair (and I don't know why I'm being fair to Cornette of all people), I would say the low level stuff isn't all the way through. The biggest problem is the unevenness. The video packages from the VHS/Wrestling Gold DVD version of Night of Legends were tremendous (extremely way too long but still), especially the recap of the Armstrong feud. However, between the awkward looking stand ups, some of the aforementioned TV matches, and how the show was structured at times, the bad would unfortunately sort of outweigh the good.

Shit, there was a thing on one episode where they did an entire five or six minute thing with Ron Wright (it was leading into his official retirement) and he is shilling his business and talking about Whitey Caldwell and how he's glad this is his retirement show. It was a nice sentiment, but it was just way, way, way too long.

Cornette's television ranged from good ole school southern (and also part time developmental) wrestling and this almost mockumentary of 70s and 80s studio wrestling. It's uneven as hell.

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3 hours ago, nofuture said:

I'm wondering if the reason they aren't porting over accounts from the Network to Peacock is due to any legal ramifications.  I doubt they're allowed to move your payment info to another service and charge you without your authorization.

I would imagine alot of Network users not going out their way to move to Peacock for no particular just not willing to do the extra work. Good for them getting a nice check off the deal. They forsook the PPV revenue for the Network when the didn't have to, all because they believed that they could get upto over 2 million subscribers. They only way they'd get to that isvif they were as hot as they were between '98 and '01, I love that we get access to all this old school footage and free PPVs , I think to myself if I had an this when i was a kid I'd probably trying to play sick just to stay home and watch. I almost feel I be doing my 9 year old self a disservice by not having this. My coworker would still be buying the PPVs long after the Network, I'd always try to convince him to get the Network but he is in his early 60s and he didn't want to do any extra work to set it up. The Network really changed alot of ways they do business today

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@Elsalvajeloco

Those Raw tapings from that gym look so shit. The lights look like they're 10 feet above the ring post, never mind the crowd and other looks. 

Wasn't this taping the debut of Cornette, with Heenan gushing over how great he was?

--

Shit, just saw the Dec. 94.

But they did run there for I think Cornette's debut a year prior before Bobby left.

The '94 one, I think was on the same tour that ended up with Joey Marella dying on July 4th, after the shows in Bushkill, PA (equally shitty venue) and Ocean City (MD).

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4 minutes ago, Zimbra said:

Alright listen you, you can't just drop a fact like "The acclaimed producer of Licensed to Ill was the financial backer for Jim Cornette's weird-but-influential regional wrestling promotion" and expect me to internalize it instantly.

Well, TBH, Rick Rubin is like the white Clarence Avant or I guess what James Price is to hip hop and boxing now. He's kinda this shadowy figure who puts his money into stuff or has his hand in everything.

I remember vividly whatever NBA Finals on ABC it was (it was the first Heat/Spurs series) where they showed the black and white Samsung commercials for Magna Carta Holy Grail and seeing Jay-Z, Swizz Beatz, Timbaland, and all these other famous artists gathered round together recording in the studio. I see them and then I see this old burnt out Santa Claus looking bum chilling on the couch or whatever, and my first thoughts were, "Who is that?...is that Rick Rubin?"

Turns out it was. Talk about a blast from the past.

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14 minutes ago, PetrolCB said:

@Elsalvajeloco

Those Raw tapings from that gym look so shit. The lights look like they're 10 feet above the ring post, never mind the crowd and other looks. 

Wasn't this taping the debut of Cornette, with Heenan gushing over how great he was?

--

Shit, just saw the Dec. 94.

But they did run there for I think Cornette's debut a year prior before Bobby left.

The '94 one, I think was on the same tour that ended up with Joey Marella dying on July 4th, after the shows in Bushkill, PA (equally shitty venue) and Ocean City (MD).

Cornette's WWF debut was in Alexandria Bay, NY I believe cause I checked to see which Raw it was when it came up on the YT feed. I'm safely assuming Cornette was talking about that on one of his shows, and thus the algorithm was bringing his debut clip up on people's feed.

Turns out he made his debut on one of my birthdays (8/2/93).

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1 hour ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

The problem with that idea though is Cornette always argues that whomever is taking advantage of billionaires and dubiously spending their money. Yet, if I was Rick Rubin or whoever was his benefactor at said time, the first that would pop in my head seeing that is, "What the fuck are you doing?". That's the same fucking thing, which is why I contend Cornette is somewhat living vicariously through the (soon to be over) Wednesday Night Wars. It's like he is wishing he could relive his days as a promoter and do things differently.

Even for local wrestling as a vanity project tribute to the territories, which Cornette was essentially doing, it would be low rent and ghetto to air that footage. Now as a guy who had already spent several years in the wrestling up even by that point going back to his photography days and selling glossy photos of the wrestlers, you would think Jim would hold himself to a much higher standard than that. That goes especially that now he is criticizing the production of other promotions (and for whatever reason, comparing it to WWE who had the luxury of being around for several decades and decades more experience in high level television production). If you're going to stand on that hill, you cannot be also the same guy who at one time put a cheap camcorder on a tripod in the bleachers somewhere in Jellico, TN at the high school and call that wrestling programming let alone production. Those two things do not jive together. 

Shit, I know that. Youtube ain't the problem. I was talking about why it isn't on the WWE network.

I pointed that out mainly as info for others who may not have been aware of it. I have no idea why there are no clean copies of most of the super shows while all the TV shows are relatively "clean" (not HD quality or something but pretty watchable).

It's also fair to note that the look and feel of SMW was designed to be like the wrestling Corny grew up on and that this (along with cost) was reflected in the bare bones production. Of course as you noted (and the point is correct) it made the product look out of date and is a reason it ultimately failed.

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19 hours ago, Curt McGirt said:

Wrestling for Women's Charity In Any Form is what's REALLY fake. That's like saying the Pope ain't Catholic. 

I like the 50/50 raffle that's won by a plant on like every High School gym wrestling show.

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20 minutes ago, sabremike said:

I pointed that out mainly as info for others who may not have been aware of it. I have no idea why there are no clean copies of most of the super shows while all the TV shows are relatively "clean" (not HD quality or something but pretty watchable).

It's also fair to note that the look and feel of SMW was designed to be like the wrestling Corny grew up on and that this (along with cost) was reflected in the bare bones production. Of course as you noted (and the point is correct) it made the product look out of date and is a reason it ultimately failed.

The tv shows were most likely recoded on 3/4 U-Matic SP or Betacam since they had to be broadcast quality, tv stations even rinky dink ones weren’t broadcasting SVHS. Corny went cheap on the “super shows” since they weren’t going to be broadcast, the price difference for recording the show the same as TV or scaled back on SVHS would have been significant. 

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35 minutes ago, sabremike said:

I pointed that out mainly as info for others who may not have been aware of it. I have no idea why there are no clean copies of most of the super shows while all the TV shows are relatively "clean" (not HD quality or something but pretty watchable).

Going back to the genesis of this when someone asked about Championship Wrestling from Florida: I wonder how much equity is getting out of these damn tape libraries outside of WCW/ECW and some of the newer stuff they just got on that from the indies like wXw? I ask because they bought these libraries YEARS and YEARS ago, used them for DVDs and documentaries, and again, it's likely a lot of the stuff they receive probably isn't in the best of condition. If it takes forever to edit these and do quality control just to put them on the network, what is the point of owning these catalogs?  

Is it out of the realm of possibility, just for a quick cash flow in, WWE tries to sell some of these libraries off? I mean they obviously keep NWA/WCW stuff and likely ECW. However, some of this other stuff? They can part with and folks wouldn't bat an eye. 

Quote

It's also fair to note that the look and feel of SMW was designed to be like the wrestling Corny grew up on and that this (along with cost) was reflected in the bare bones production. Of course as you noted (and the point is correct) it made the product look out of date and is a reason it ultimately failed.

All this makes it incredibly funny that Brian Last is of the opinion that bringing back old school wrestling could work. Now only does timing rule that out, but Vince has made it impossible for wrestling to go backwards in that sense. Cornette tried it when a lot of the (potential) fanbase who watched that wrestling was still around and back when you had old grannies and grandpas in the front row at WCW events in the early to mid 90s whenever they ran former big time territory towns and cities in the Mid-Atlantic area and different regions in the south. It didn't work then and won't work now. Moreover, it's not like there is a bunch of television people out there not working for WWE who know how to shoot wrestling. You're either getting folks who worked for indies like ROH & MLW or TNA/Impact. There isn't a "WRESTLING PRODUCTION PERSON R-US" depot that I know about. So essentially, you're asking for someone to do that type of wrestling and infuse a bunch of capital into a venture that wouldn't be very profitable if it's even profitable at all.

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20 minutes ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Going back to the genesis of this when someone asked about Championship Wrestling from Florida: I wonder how much equity is getting out of these damn tape libraries outside of WCW/ECW and some of the newer stuff they just got on that from the indies like wXw? I ask because they bought these libraries YEARS and YEARS ago, used them for DVDs and documentaries, and again, it's likely a lot of the stuff they receive probably isn't in the best of condition. If it takes forever to edit these and do quality control just to put them on the network, what is the point of owning these catalogs?  

Is it out of the realm of possibility, just for a quick cash flow in, WWE tries to sell some of these libraries off? I mean they obviously keep NWA/WCW stuff and likely ECW. However, some of this other stuff? They can part with and folks wouldn't bat an eye. 

All this makes it incredibly funny that Brian Last is of the opinion that bringing back old school wrestling could work. Now only does timing rule that out, but Vince has made it impossible for wrestling to go backwards in that sense. Cornette tried it when a lot of the (potential) fanbase who watched that wrestling was still around and back when you had old grannies and grandpas in the front row at WCW events in the early to mid 90s whenever they ran former big time territory towns and cities in the Mid-Atlantic area and different regions in the south. It didn't work then and won't work now. Moreover, it's not like there is a bunch of television people out there not working for WWE who know how to shoot wrestling. You're either getting folks who worked for indies like ROH & MLW or TNA/Impact. There isn't a "WRESTLING PRODUCTION PERSON R-US" depot that I know about. So essentially, you're asking for someone to do that type of wrestling and infuse a bunch of capital into a venture that wouldn't be very profitable if it's even profitable at all.

Even ECW (Which was actually very cutting edge and in many ways the 90's version of Mid South as far as a must watch tv show) couldn't overcome the fact that the big two blew them away production wise. The reason AEW succeeded is because they had the resources to match WWE on production (and in fact made NXT look inferior). And a random thought: ECW live (even a house show) was the most amazing thing ever but it didn't translate to TV which is actually a lot like CFL football (which is so much fun live but not on TV).

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There was a weird Rick Rubin mini-doc series with four episodes on Showtime not long ago. It was just him musing philosophically and lounging around barefoot. No sunglasses removal allowed. 

Of course he didn't talk about Beasties, Slayer, Danzig, Trouble, SMW, Johnny Cash, basically anything interesting he ever did.

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5 hours ago, Peck said:

It's probably a minor issue in the grand scheme of things(and I'm in @RIPPA's boat when it comes to being an existing Comcast subscriber so I'm going from $10 to free) but what sucks for OCD people like me is that the Network would always mark which shows I had previously watched(although I've noticed issues with that the past week or two) and I have a feeling that that viewing history of mine will probably not survive the move to Peacock. 

I would imagine it’s a combination of practical logistics and legal implications.  I’m not in IT/database management, but I can see it not being worth the hassle to deal with figuring out how to port over the millions(?) of Network members from the Network infrastructure to the Peacock systems, plus you’d have to deal with duplicate memberships.

Practically and legally, I’m not sure they’d be able to create new Peacock accounts for people without those people accepting the Peacock TOS/Privacy Policies, and then at best they’d only be able to create new Peacock accounts at the free level, because automatically importing over everyone’s pre-existing payment methods, much less beginning automatic billing, is a class action suit waiting to happen.  It’s much easier and safer to have everyone who needs one create their own new account if they don’t already have one.

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I am sure some Hartford CT pencilneck beancounter was tasked to do a cost evaluation of how many new subscribers the complete digitized SMW library would bring to the Network versus how long some intern would have to go through the footage and put a big blue dot over all the Confederate flags and black eyes on Dirty White Girl, and here we are. 

- yeehaw,

RAF

p.s. - I like a lot of SMW.

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25 minutes ago, Curt McGirt said:

There was a weird Rick Rubin mini-doc series with four episodes on Showtime not long ago. It was just him musing philosophically and lounging around barefoot. No sunglasses removal allowed. 

Of course he didn't talk about Beasties, Slayer, Danzig, Trouble, SMW, Johnny Cash, basically anything interesting he ever did.

And this is why the Magna Carta commercial stuff kinda weirds me out. He didn't even produce anything on the album. Who would INTENTIONALLY hang out with this man while he babbles on? That makes me cast a sideeye to anyone who does that.

15 minutes ago, thee Reverend Axl Future said:

I am sure some Hartford CT pencilneck beancounter was tasked to do a cost evaluation of how many new subscribers the complete digitized SMW library would bring to the Network versus how long some intern would have to go through the footage and put a big blue dot over all the Confederate flags and black eyes on Dirty White Girl, and here we are. 

- yeehaw,

RAF

p.s. - I like a lot of SMW.

Man, I watched a Nitro (4/22/1996 IIRC) and a Raw (5/26/1997 where Shawn and Austin win the tag belts) the other day. The Nitro features Bischoff giving away the Raw results and he calls Goldust a transvestite among other things. On the Raw, Lawler cuts this tirade on Goldust that DEFINITELY would get a show canceled today. How in the fuck is that still on the network?

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6 hours ago, Zimbra said:

Alright listen you, you can't just drop a fact like "The acclaimed producer of Licensed to Ill was the financial backer for Jim Cornette's weird-but-influential regional wrestling promotion" and expect me to internalize it instantly.

Rick Rubin produced Licensed to Ill?!? See, this is a gift that keeps on giving!

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