All In II - 8/27/2023

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

38 minutes ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

 

Let me crunch the numbers before giving you a definitive answer. 

 

I'm fine with changing my stance from "AEW shouldn't be holding back"  to "Tony Khan isn't a great booker."  

While crunching them let me know if Ricky Starks is on that level too please. Since someone with a hard on for him keeps sending me harassing DMs that I’ve reported repeatedly. 

As for your stance on Khan I think it’s safe to say he definitely needs more help than he’s getting (or seeking out) at the moment. There’s certainly stories that could draw if given time. 

[elizium]

10 hours ago, lostinube said:

Also, Ospreay joining Callis would ruin the United Empire, which is still a thing in New Japan.

Just expanding to include other members of the Commonwealth

[Matt D]

I had someone put it to me like this recently: 

Tony Khan is a terrible booker but an excellent matchmaker.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Matt D

[Octopus]

Off and on, I enjoy Bruce’s podcast. He’ll sometimes talk about him, Pat Paterson, maybe Cornette and like Jerry Briscoe or whoever sitting outside of Vince’s pool and going over storylines. Out of available wrestling minds, who would be a good team to help with Tony’s booking? 
I think they can do that and still maintain the ethos of “no writers” and this is meant to be a fun thing and not a panic the world is falling apart thing. 

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

34 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Off and on, I enjoy Bruce’s podcast. He’ll sometimes talk about him, Pat Paterson, maybe Cornette and like Jerry Briscoe or whoever sitting outside of Vince’s pool and going over storylines. Out of available wrestling minds, who would be a good team to help with Tony’s booking? 
I think they can do that and still maintain the ethos of “no writers” and this is meant to be a fun thing and not a panic the world is falling apart thing. 

That sounds like a good idea. Does Chris Hero have any booking experience anywhere? I know he’s an agent, but he’d still fill that role well if he has experience. I know Sonjay booked some in Impact, and he’s not a major on air presence  so he too could fit that role. Jarrett if they used him less on tv also could be a good fit. 

[Kevin Wilson]

I feel like TK is comfortable with his style and the ship has probably sailed after all these years of him changing. He appears to ask wrestlers he trusts for their opinions (Danielson, Mox, Jericho, Punk) to help book the shows and their storylines but doesn't want to have a "booking team" so to speak. I can see the pros and cons of both approaches, I just don't think he is suddenly going to decide he wants an official "booker."

[Log]

38 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Off and on, I enjoy Bruce’s podcast. He’ll sometimes talk about him, Pat Paterson, maybe Cornette and like Jerry Briscoe or whoever sitting outside of Vince’s pool and going over storylines. Out of available wrestling minds, who would be a good team to help with Tony’s booking? 
I think they can do that and still maintain the ethos of “no writers” and this is meant to be a fun thing and not a panic the world is falling apart thing. 

I’m going to give a total cop-out answer and say “someone who hasn’t booked wrestling before”. I’d love to see some fresh minds tackle that task. It’s seems like the same rotating cast of a handful of people always get mentioned. It’d be cool to see what some other people could do in that position. 

[Dolphman 3000]

Treat it like episodic TV and have a new "director" every week who serves as guest booker

Tony gives them the bullet points they have to hit - but how they get where they need to go is up to the director

I remember Steve Corino was brought in to book a month's work of WWECW shows at one point as a tryout and they were really good.

Bring in Russo to book Dynamite and bring in Cornette to book Collision at the same time

Tony wastes money by stacking his roster for no reason when he could be having much more fun

Edited August 12, 2023 by Dolphman 3000

[odessasteps]

23 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I feel like TK is comfortable with his style and the ship has probably sailed after all these years of him changing. He appears to ask wrestlers he trusts for their opinions (Danielson, Mox, Jericho, Punk) to help book the shows and their storylines but doesn't want to have a "booking team" so to speak. I can see the pros and cons of both approaches, I just don't think he is suddenly going to decide he wants an official "booker."

I bet most billionaires, even ones born on third base, don’t do much changing.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

I wonder if Will Washington's been helping out? I think he and Swerve are cousins, and Swerve's shit lately has been (perhaps not-so)-coincidentally some of my favorite on the show.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath

[Zakk_Sabbath]

21 minutes ago, Dolphman 3000 said:

Bring in Russo to book Dynamite and bring in Cornette to book Collision at the same time

This is a good idea if only that it might prompt Punk and the Elite to commiserate about it. An awkward pass in the hall, followed by a 'These fuckin' guys, amirite?' - next thing you know, we've got world peace and our Full Gear main

[Just Adam Bay Bay]

2 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

I wonder if Will Washington's been helping out? I think he and Swerve are cousins, and Swerve's shit lately has been (perhaps not-so)-coincidentally some of my favorite on the show.

Will has I think. I saw it mentioned last week that he was the one that suggested Hikaru Shias and Toni Storm be the main event two weeks ago. 

[Octopus]

28 minutes ago, Kevin Wilson said:

I feel like TK is comfortable with his style and the ship has probably sailed after all these years of him changing. He appears to ask wrestlers he trusts for their opinions (Danielson, Mox, Jericho, Punk) to help book the shows and their storylines but doesn't want to have a "booking team" so to speak. I can see the pros and cons of both approaches, I just don't think he is suddenly going to decide he wants an official "booker."

My question is sheer for fun and “not a panic the world is falling apart thing.”

Basically, who are great booking or storyline minds that are in theory available? It could be changed to if you were starting a wrestling company and wanted a creative team who would you reasonably be able to get. Etc.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

4 minutes ago, Octopus said:

Basically, who are great booking or storyline minds that are in theory available? It could be changed to if you were starting a wrestling company and wanted a creative team who would you reasonably be able to get. Etc.

No less than 30 people are gonna answer 'Raven.' For me, I'm gonna back @Log - I think I'd rather see almost anyone here try their hand at it, rather than giving another shot to the Heymans, Bischoffs, Cornys, Bruces or Gabes of the world. Nothing against those guys, but they're operating under the 'everything is new after 7 years' model, when we live in a 'content is forever' world now.

Edit: I'll relay a story I heard Scott Hall tell in a shoot - it was WCW, I forget who the agent was, but they were working on a finish, and the agent goes 'Why don't we do the ol'...' and Hall cuts him off and says something like 'I don't want do to *anything* that starts with The Ol'... Let's do the New..." - that's kinda my mindset on this one.

Edited August 12, 2023 by Zakk_Sabbath

[matt925]

37 minutes ago, LF2 said:

That sounds like a good idea. Does Chris Hero have any booking experience anywhere? I know he’s an agent, but he’d still fill that role well if he has experience. I know Sonjay booked some in Impact, and he’s not a major on air presence  so he too could fit that role. Jarrett if they used him less on tv also could be a good fit. 

Chris is booking west coast pro and there are angles and storylines to build matches (at the show last night we got a masked heel attacking the face before the match to weaken him up, and then a big injury angle where a face wouldn’t be able to come back out for the tourny but miraculously did) but that’s one show per month. Not even in the same universe as booking three shows per week. 
 

I think tk is set in his ways and I agree the build for all the ppvs should be better, they’ve been on the weak side for at least over a year now. Not saying it can’t be criticized but I don’t think anything is changing in the foreseeable future. For better or worse, this is what aew is. It certainly isn’t flawless. 

[peachchaos]

I'm probably mixing these up but Tony's booking advisors for Dynamite have been reported to be Sanjay and QT Marshall and the Collision team being lead by Danielson. Obviously, the Elite, Punk, and Jericho all have a lot of input too. With Jerry, Dean, Mr. Assman, etc. as producers/agents/coaches, I think it's a pretty solid inner circle. There's no one person who could come in and affect the kind of change the voices think they need. Wrestling is a revolving door of angles, matches, talent, feuds, trends, storylines, creators, performers and fans. There have always been too many variables to try to fix it. The beauty of wrestling is that it can never ever be perfected. 80k in Wembley in 4 years with a 2 year pandemic and we will never be happy.

[Jrag]

I have very little time for the be happy with everything we are getting because this company didn’t exist a few years ago talk. I wasn’t watching any wrestling at all when AEW started. I didn’t watch any wrestling at all during the pandemic. 

When they went back on the road is when I jumped back in and this is about the only wrestling I watch consistently. They have shown me enough to have an idea of what they are capable of and to hold them to a standard that they don’t always reach.

Collision is just about the perfect wrestling show for me. Punk/MJF was just about the perfect wrestling feud. They have an insane roster, and insane amount of fresh matchups and 5 hours of national tv per week to develop stories. I do expect more than what they have given us in the build up to this show. 

That’s not to say I won’t enjoy what we are getting, but I think the company as a whole is at a fork in the road basically and Tony needs to be better if they are going to take the turn I want them to take!

I am very curious to know if Tony is less, more or the same amount of hands on with Collision.  I have heard Danielson and Punk are way more involved with that show, but would love to know what else is going on to cause such a distinct break from the Dynamite or Rampage style.

My gut says he is less hands on, but if the answer is “the same” then I do think Tony has shown the ability to adapt and change.  Such an interesting time to be a wrestling fan.

 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Jrag

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

13 minutes ago, Jrag said:

I have very little time for the be happy with everything we are getting because this company didn’t exist a few years ago talk.

It's the wrestling promotion equivalent of infantilizing, really. I read a lot of these posts as "awww look at how cute it is that this four year old company is doing this!" This four year old company got a jumpstart by billionaire funds. They've positioned themselves as the plucky little upstarts that could - and did - and that's great marketing, but at some point they need to stop getting a pass because they happened to not be a well-funded project that didn't fall flat on its face out of the gates like however many projects.

If people are genuinely happy with what they're getting and feel they can trust them to come through with a great show in the clinch, then that's great, I'm glad folks have that belief. At the same time though, I'm not sure why a legitimate criticism of "hey this show's in like two weeks and there's barely anything planned, should I spend $50 on it" is met with "well gosh, they're just new at this!" They've been on TV for four years. At some point the free passes for being a new company should run out, right?

[peachchaos]

13 minutes ago, Jrag said:

I have very little time for the be happy with everything we are getting because this company didn’t exist a few years ago talk.

You missed the part where no company or booker ever has actually done this perfectly. It just isn't possible. You're looking for a unicorn, and if you go back and watch the entire product around the time of the Punk-MJF feud, it won't be there either. Rose tinted glasses that are easily removed when this imaginary golden goose comes into our heads. In five years we'll be looking back in awe craving for this moment for an 80k show on the horizon. The discourse around this show has become Royal Rumble 2014, which is just insane to me. There is an actual dream trios match on "free" TV tonight. Will ya'll be commenting on that show with as much intensity?

[zendragon]

1 hour ago, Octopus said:

My question is sheer for fun and “not a panic the world is falling apart thing.”

Basically, who are great booking or storyline minds that are in theory available? It could be changed to if you were starting a wrestling company and wanted a creative team who would you reasonably be able to get. Etc.

Every time I hear Lance Storm talk I always scratch my head that no one has him under some sort of consultant deal

[John from Cincinnati]

33 minutes ago, Jrag said:

I have very little time for the be happy with everything we are getting because this company didn’t exist a few years ago talk.

I don’t think that’s the tone of those comments. There’s no onus on people to be happy with everything. Hold them to whatever standard you wish. Most of the comments you’re getting this vibe from are largely in response to the vocal one or two who think TK is just straight up NOT treating the show as a big deal, which is a notion that’s completely divorced from reality and is crying out for some perspective. If people want more announced further out or better for the women or whichever talent they think deserve more, that’s all fine and I don’t think anybody is taking much issue with that. But the card currently being built is plenty of big time stuff worthy of the occasion, and the people pretending it’s small time chicken feed are the ones who are being taken aim at.

And I guess it doesn’t hurt that I mostly buy in to the notion that it’s a lot of big time stuff so far and it’s largely among talent and matchups I like seeing prioritized. I sympathize for the people waiting for a big match involving Kenny, Hangman, Moxley, etc, but those aren’t my priorities and I mostly expect the card to improve over the next few weeks in ways I enjoy. 

[John from Cincinnati]

2 minutes ago, zendragon said:

Every time I hear Lance Storm talk I always scratch my head that no one has him under some sort of consultant deal

This is Impact erasure. 

[Matt D]

I’m pretty sure that Khan is happy though, so..  

[Jrag]

45 minutes ago, peachchaos said:

You missed the part where no company or booker ever has actually done this perfectly. It just isn't possible. You're looking for a unicorn, and if you go back and watch the entire product around the time of the Punk-MJF feud, it won't be there either. Rose tinted glasses that are easily removed when this imaginary golden goose comes into our heads. In five years we'll be looking back in awe craving for this moment for an 80k show on the horizon. The discourse around this show has become Royal Rumble 2014, which is just insane to me. There is an actual dream trios match on "free" TV tonight. Will ya'll be commenting on that show with as much intensity?

Nah I don’t think I’m missing anything, bud.

This billionaire being slightly better than the other billionaires who have tried to create wrestling at this level is both why I am interested in the product and why I am expecting more.

“Rose-colored glasses” and “imaginary golden goose” seems a bit of a strange turn to this conversation when I have been consistent with both my praise and my criticism of this company since I started watching. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make with the trios match tonight, but yes of course I will be commenting on it check out a Collision thread once in a while. 

Edited August 12, 2023 by Jrag

[peachchaos]

7 minutes ago, Jrag said:

“Rose-colored glasses” and “imaginary golden goose” seems a bit of a strange turn to this conversation when I have been consistent with both my praise and my criticism of this company since I started watching. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

Not trying to take any shots, I do honestly confuse a lot of posters around here and the lack of navigation certainly doesn't help. My point stands, we as fans tend to look back at the best of things while looking ahead at the possibilities. It's easy to look at Wembley and think, "ahh, they have to do their best, which was Punk-MJF" but then also look back and see that the main event of Revolution 2022 was actually a match nobody cared about, Cole vs. Page. It's just silly how in real time we seem to focus more on the negative but history fossilizes the "greatness" when in reality all of it is necessary and wrestling.