August 2023 Wrestling Discussion

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

3 hours ago, Elsalvajeloco said:

Yes, when I think echo chamber, I think people who are most likely to own a copy of "The Best of Ice Train on WCW Pro". Very hive minded people, we are.

Look, we've talked about this before, you can't just go talking about my collection like this.

Anyway, if folks getting banned for being bad people-slash-threatening to doxx fellow posters-slash-accusing people of crimes-slash-making wild assumptions makes this place an echo chamber, so be it. Most discussion forums are utter sewers and while this place has its share of blowups, there are some lines that don't need to be crossed. Like threatening to reveal people's personal info. Over a pro wrestling opinion. Like... what?

Edited August 16, 2023 by Sparkleface

[EVA]

6 hours ago, ExcellenceofAirPollution said:

 

I secretly suspected he might be Lasto for a minute there, especially with some of his AEW takes vis-a-vis Tony, but I think he was just a listener aping what he thought would rile people up

 

I mean, almost every thought he had was just repeating whatever anti-AEW meme was going around Twitter that day. You could be excused for thinking he was somebody else because he had no original ideas of his own.

[Matt D]

We actually got a bunch of Ice Train in Germany over the last few years where he was "Choo Choo Ice Train" and super over with the crowd. The 95 stuff has him really green though and maybe not quite as protected as he'd be in WCW. There's a fun Finlay match and this weird trios cage match which is fun but not quite as good as it ought to be. By 97 when he comes back, he's somewhat better though. Like this is legitimately good:

By 95, PN News had absolutely gotten it and by 97 he knew exactly what he was and exactly what he should be and exactly how much to give and when against a guy the size of Ice Train. So they build and they build here, with Ice Train almost coming back or almost getting Karoff on the outside, even through a pretty effective and over hulk up. They build it with him working towards the slam or getting hit by a big bomb by Grizzly and barely survive it only to move the second time. It doesn't really have a finish but has some solid and violent stuff on the floor at the end instead.  There's probably some Fire and Ice match in WCW which is better because it's more focused and limited but this is almost certainly up there with Ice Train's best match. If you've never seen Grizzly outside of 1991-2 WCW, you should give this a look. He grew into a top heel for Germany.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

That was maybe like one of three times I've ever reported a post here. I'm all for spirited debate, maybe a little ball busting once in a while, but to call that behavior 'out of pocket' is putting it mildly. I agree with @Sparklefaceon every single word she wrote, and @christopher.anninois like the nicest dude and never says shit to anyone.

[EVA]

8 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I’ll miss his weird bad opinions. Gonna need a few of you to step up. 

You won’t have to wait long. DVDVR abhors an asshole vacuum. I feel like there was very little downtime between A_K getting Cash’d and The Dolphman Rises.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

@Matt Dthis is gonna be an odd and very specific question - I know WCW did a tour there in 2000 (or at least a show or two in I wanna say Oberhausen) that did really well, especially by their dying days standard. Was Ice Train there (he was M.I. Smooth by this period) and was he still super over??

[Matt D]

23 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

@Matt Dthis is gonna be an odd and very specific question - I know WCW did a tour there in 2000 (or at least a show or two in I wanna say Oberhausen) that did really well, especially by their dying days standard. Was Ice Train there (he was M.I. Smooth by this period) and was he still super over??

As best as I can tell, no. The only things that stand out on the tour is that Alex Wright and Finlay were up higher on the cards than they might have been otherwise.

[Zakk_Sabbath]

9 minutes ago, Matt D said:

As best as I can tell, no. The only things that stand out on the tour is that Alex Wright and Finlay were up higher on the cards than they might have been otherwise.

Yeah, now that you say that, I'm remembering clips on US TV of him doing the usual Das Wunderkind dance, but still with the Berlyn haircut. I'm *still* kinda salty we didn't get an Alex Wright match when Cody was doing the initial TNT title open challenges. (Though we DID get Eddie Kingston outta the deal, and the kick ass Brodie chain match - I can't complain too much).

[Coletti]

Yeah so that was weird and I'm glad that dude is gone. The one thing I'll give him a small shred of credit for is how completely bizarre of a coincidence it is that there is some dude named Christopher Annino who currently resides in Manchester NH and is a total piece of shit con artist, while there is me who up until yesterday in his board bio said he was in Manchester NH. I'm honestly glad I know about this douchebag now, but yeah, there's about a billion other ways to go about seeing if I am that dude.

Funny thing to me is, when Mr Dolph first started posting here it was just non-stop Twitter links to nEwZ and I had homie blocked before the opinions started pouring out. Apparently I had a moment of foresight that paid off tremendously!

Big thanks to the folks who had my back even if you just were hopeful to get rid of the guy for any reason possible

[Dolfan in NYC]

I know people have been saying the Bloodline is going into late nWo territory with their story recently, but it's not like there are guys in other companies doing . . .

 

 

[The Natural]

5 minutes ago, christopher.annino said:

Yeah so that was weird and I'm glad that dude is gone. The one thing I'll give him a small shred of credit for is how completely bizarre of a coincidence it is that there is some dude named Christopher Annino who currently resides in Manchester NH and is a total piece of shit con artist, while there is me who up until yesterday in his board bio said he was in Manchester NH. I'm honestly glad I know about this douchebag now, but yeah, there's about a billion other ways to go about seeing if I am that dude.

Funny thing to me is, when Mr Dolph first started posting here it was just non-stop Twitter links to nEwZ and I had homie blocked before the opinions started pouring out. Apparently I had a moment of foresight that paid off tremendously!

Big thanks to the folks who had my back even if you just were hopeful to get rid of the guy for any reason possible

You're one of the goodies here, mate xxx.

Edited August 16, 2023 by The Natural

[Stefanie Sparkleface]

1 hour ago, Matt D said:

We actually got a bunch of Ice Train in Germany over the last few years where he was "Choo Choo Ice Train" and super over with the crowd. The 95 stuff has him really green though and maybe not quite as protected as he'd be in WCW. There's a fun Finlay match and this weird trios cage match which is fun but not quite as good as it ought to be. By 97 when he comes back, he's somewhat better though. Like this is legitimately good:

By 95, PN News had absolutely gotten it and by 97 he knew exactly what he was and exactly what he should be and exactly how much to give and when against a guy the size of Ice Train. So they build and they build here, with Ice Train almost coming back or almost getting Karoff on the outside, even through a pretty effective and over hulk up. They build it with him working towards the slam or getting hit by a big bomb by Grizzly and barely survive it only to move the second time. It doesn't really have a finish but has some solid and violent stuff on the floor at the end instead.  There's probably some Fire and Ice match in WCW which is better because it's more focused and limited but this is almost certainly up there with Ice Train's best match. If you've never seen Grizzly outside of 1991-2 WCW, you should give this a look. He grew into a top heel for Germany.

This is exactly what we need today.

[Matt D]

12 minutes ago, Sparkleface said:

This is exactly what we need today.

There's more.

So this wasn't easy to find and it MIGHT be the wrong match but I bet it isn't. It's from Pro instead of WCW Worldwide and I've timestamped it.

Here's what my SC crony Eric, he who is currently watching every 1997 WCW match and writing a book about it, said about this one:

Spoiler

ER15: So before you know what happens in this match, let me ask you how you would have guessed this match going. I would have guessed "test of strength, couple of shoulderblocks where neither man goes down, Ice Train gets a miniscule advantage, Luger calls for it to go home out of nowhere 2 minutes in." That sounds like exactly what you were picturing, right? Don't act like you expected this - what actually happened:

The match went almost 10 minutes, Luger gave Ice Train practically the WHOLE match, Ice Train won by DQ when Jimmy Hart attacked him with the megaphone, then Luger got punked out by Norton and Train after the match. Seriously. That's what happened. Luger stooged for Train the whole match. Train worked over Luger's arm and Luger put it over huge, sold his left arm, clutching it to his side, even setting up runs for Ice Train by doing things like missing a corner charge with his bad shoulder/arm. He gives Train everything. He even puts over Train's strength by going for a pinfall and then comically launching himself off of Train on the kickoff. And Ice Train really really really does not make the most of this gift. He looks so bad throughout so much of this. His punches are just impossibly bad. His arm work and Fujiwara armbar are surprisingly good, even tossing out a legdrop to Luger's wing at one point. But then he went and hit the worst drop toe hold I've ever seen. Luger didn't know what it was supposed to be. None of the announcers had any idea what it was supposed to be.

Actual exchange after the alleged drop toe hold:

Chris Cruise: Well I...believe that may have been some...maybe a drop toe hold?
Larry Z: Well we might never know unless we get...Quincy on the case.
Cruise: Quincy!?
Dusty: Quincy!! Quincy hasn't been on the air in 10 years!
Cruise: Maybe 20!
Larry Z: Look...with 80 cable channels you can find anything...
Dusty: Quincy Adams! Quincy Jones!
Larry Z: You know what...

Norton runs in after the interference, Luger clubs him and Norton completely no sells it, then Luger BEGS OFF!

I mean, this was awesome. Luger just totally stooged the whole time for a guy who really didn't deserve it. 1996 Luger has been just so consistently good.

 

[Zakk_Sabbath]

3 minutes ago, Matt D said:

Here's what my SC crony Eric, he who is currently watching every 1997 WCW match and writing a book about it, said about this one:

#1 I am very, very excited to hear this. That'll be a definite day one (or next soonest payday...) buy from me.

#2 OF COURSE Dusty tosses out 'Quincy Jones!'

[Curt McGirt]

Is there a better name for a Southern man with a lisp to yell out than "Quincy Jones"? It's perfect. 

We were talking in the Santo thread about WCW tending to have undercard matches where the heel would take almost the whole match then slip on a banana peel, this Ice Train/Luger match sounds about just like that. 

And FYI if you miss the political board we got the Discord chat for that and more. https://discord.com/channels/760975377127964672/760975377127964675 If you are a right wing asshole you will probably get stomped into the mud, though. 

[twiztor]

@elsalvajeloco, that Golden Glory video was pretty great. i hadn't seen it before. i think this is the thread it was posted in. 

[The Natural]

Kevin Owens at the zoo.

[Just Dave]

13 hours ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I’ll miss his weird bad opinions. Gonna need a few of you to step up. 

I’m not sure I can go any harder…

[Robert S]

4 hours ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

@Matt Dthis is gonna be an odd and very specific question - I know WCW did a tour there in 2000 (or at least a show or two in I wanna say Oberhausen) that did really well, especially by their dying days standard. Was Ice Train there (he was M.I. Smooth by this period) and was he still super over??

Just to give some context about late 90ies US mainstream pro wrestling in Germany (and Austria): the WWF exploded in about 92/93 where a lot of teenager were watching wrestling. So when WWF business went completely shit in the US they ran an insane amount of dates of here. WCW was a step below but had a pretty decent time slot. The downfall of WWF (besides the natural cycle) started in late 95 / early 96 when they lost their timeslot (the station they were on tried to move WWF from a 10 PM timeslot to a 5 PM Saturday (or Sunday?) slot, after two weeks the Bavarian media regulatory body threatend to revoke the TV license of the station if they continued to air wrestling before 10 PM; as a result the station moved wrestling into a graveyard timeslot and eventually canceled wrestling completely). In early 96 WWF switched to the same station that WCW was already running on (in the midst of the Monday Night Wars, WWF and WCW were on the same station here), so WCW had the same visibility as the WWF. The advantage WCW had was that the German program was produced by the station itself (or at least a company that was closely affiliated to the station) while WWF produced its stuff themselves.

The coexistence latest for about two years (until early 98). During that time the owners of that station started a pay TV station that aired a lot of wrestling (besides WCW and WWF, they aired old ECW, SMW and AAA tapes). Again using the closeness to WCW, they did about one live event a year from Germany that aired on that station. One had for example boxer Axel Schulz acting as guest referee in I think a Sting match (where he counted a pinfall - when Sting put his opponent in the Scorpion Deathlock). WWF did the last live tour in Germany for lot of years in early 97 (the one with the European title tournament) - the attendances were still okay I guess, but North American business already had picked up by that point.

WWF was off the air in the German speaking market for almost the whole year of 98. They came back at the end of the year, airing on a smaller station in a bad time slot (AFAIR). WCW kept their decent timeslots until the very end of their run (actually until 2002 or so, they aired older shows after the sale). So even in when they did their shows in 2000 they had pretty good audiences (thehistoryofwwe.com says that the 2000 Oberhausen shows had 11.000 and 9.000 people attending). The match that got pushed on TV of the first 2000 tour was Berlyn vs. Tom Gerhardt - a German... let's be generous and say comedian (who did the kind of humor that's only funny if your alcohol level is above 0.15 %). WWF (and later WWE) was "cold" over here for lots of years, you could for example see it on the message boards where almost all posters were guys of approx. the same age, who watched it during the boom and unlike 99% did not fall off.

EDIT: Okay, I should probably add that another reason for WWF fall off much harder than WCW was that a lot of the "stars" when WWF was at its hottest over here were in WCW by 98. Also I would assume that Attitude-style wrestling did not appeal to the audience as much (it definitely did not for me and for the couple of my friends that were watching wrestling before).

Edited August 16, 2023 by Robert S

[Elsalvajeloco]

1 hour ago, twiztor said:

@elsalvajeloco, that Golden Glory video was pretty great. i hadn't seen it before. i think this is the thread it was posted in. 

I haven't seen it in about seven or eight years at least. IIRC I first saw it on Sherdog in 2004/2005. Sherdog has changed ownership three or more times since then. A lot of the old content has been taken down as a result. You can probably find a backdoor or find something on the Wayback Machine. However, I just took a stab in the dark and looked on YouTube.

The other music video I remember is a Gracie Hunter one for Kazushi Sakuraba with Beautiful Day cause that was mandatory for any MMA or pro wrestling music video. Also, Igor Vovchanchyn had one set to Republica's Ready to Go.

[Log]

16 minutes ago, just drew said:

I’m not sure I can go any harder…

He said weird bad opinions.

Yours are just weird.

[Just Dave]

39 minutes ago, Log said:

He said weird bad opinions.

Yours are just weird.

I can live with that… I think?

[Dog]

1 hour ago, just drew said:

I’m not sure I can go any harder…

I assumed calling Adam Cole "light in the loafers" was about a week away. 

[Just Dave]

7 minutes ago, Dog said:

I assumed calling Adam Cole "light in the loafers" was about a week away. 

I mean, he's skinny, if that's what you mean. 

No, I asked a lgbtqia+ friend about the Twinkletoes thing and they filled me in. I really hadn't ever heard it used that way before. I'm kind of oblivious to that sort of thing, though. I always just thought Elton John, Freddie Mercury and George Michael were British...

[Mister TV]

11 minutes ago, just drew said:

I mean, he's skinny, if that's what you mean. 

No, I asked a lgbtqia+ friend about the Twinkletoes thing and they filled me in. I really hadn't ever heard it used that way before. I'm kind of oblivious to that sort of thing, though. I always just thought Elton John, Freddie Mercury and George Michael were British...

I guess you didn't watch a lot of Three's Company and All in the Family reruns growing up.