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Dynamite - 11/17/2021


Gordlow
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15 minutes ago, Gorman said:

If there's one piece of advice I would give AEW, it's don't be afraid to coach up your announcers, even JR. Let him know how much or how little he should criticize the referees, for example. Big Show needs some coaching. He needs to stop talking about himself all the time. He needs to stop saying the same things about the same wrestlers over and over:

  • I just love saying her name: Thunder RRRRRROSA!!!
  • I want to see Mike Sydal and DDP have a Yoga-Off
  • Angelico's just out here grooving, he's just trying to catch the wind

I think there's a reluctance to ask these "legends" to keep improving, when it would really help the shows a lot.

Agreed with all of @Gorman's post, but especially this. Big Show sounds like a wrestler who is having trouble transitioning to the booth and is coming in with pre-prepared lines, or thinks much like how wrestlers have signature spots, commentators should have signature lines they squeeze in every match.

(I once had a wrestler do a guest spot show up with a list of jokes he wanted to tell, and I was like "uh, if you can find a way to make them work, sure?" And that was how I learned to be a little more firm about that, because he just went down his list.)

But really, everyone needs coaching, even if they are someone with the experience level of a Jim Ross. Everyone makes mistakes, even people with decades of experience, and not acknowledging them just because the person who made those mistakes has a lengthy resume is going to lead to regression in skills.

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8 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

Agreed with all of @Gorman's post, but especially this. Big Show sounds like a wrestler who is having trouble transitioning to the booth and is coming in with pre-prepared lines, or thinks much like how wrestlers have signature spots, commentators should have signature lines they squeeze in every match.

 

The Booker T approach. Man had a whole Bingo card of catchphrases.

 

Edited by AxB
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4 hours ago, killsteve said:

Sidebar on Shida-Deeb - I think they've definitely given this enough juice that they could run the blow-off or next encounter as a Dynamite main event. What stipulation would be worth them adding to it though? I'd like to see them mix it up from a standard garbage brawl, maybe a 30 minute Ironman match or 2/3 falls or something.  

I'm torn here. Thinking big picture. Do you do something that accentuates Shida or Deeb or do you build on the Baker/Rosa match and try to make that into more of a brand. I know Shida's been a big part of the promotion in general, but if they thought they'd be building things around Deeb as a cornerstone, branding a signature match for her (even submissions or 2/3 falls or no-strikes allowed) might have longer term benefit.

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9 hours ago, Brian Fowler said:

From a bit before All Out up until a couple weeks ago, I thought JR had really gotten in a decent groove for the first time in years. Punk and Danielson seemed to have reenergized him, he was being grumpy and undercutting guys less.

It seems like that just kinda wore off in the last two or three weeks and he's back to where he's mostly been the last decade or so.

And yeah watching today The Good, The Bad, and The Elite videos really did remind me how damn good he can be in other roles still.

Also, just for the record, please dear God don't let a company I watch bring back Joey Styles. Holy Christ has his schtick aged terribly.

I think they do need a more structured "Excalibur is PBP, one or two other people are color" for the main team. I'd personally go with either Ex and Taz or Ex, Taz, and Tony personally.

Also, as long as I'm talking about announcers and such... Why does anyone ever put Marvez on TV? He's actively awful whenever they put him out there doing a backstage interview (thankfully not very often anymore) while Tony and Dasha are both really good at it.

And controversial opinion alert; Brandi Rhodes is the best ring announcer in the company.

I think you’re completely right about JR showing some temporary improvement post Punk/Danielson.  

Tony is dropping the ball here as it seems like a fairly simple fix.  He needs to stop Jim from criticizing his product and performers (Excalibur, the refs, Wheeler Yuta, etc.). And while he’s at it, if we’re really going for quality improvements, he could also suggest no more comedy from BBQ Jim.  Jim’s always been loyal to his employer and I can’t see how Tony issuing constructive criticism would be anything but a win for everybody involved and supporting AEW.

Your comment about Joey Styles suggests you only remember his catchphrase.  Joey made bad matches so much better than they had any right to be. His balance of storytelling, move calling and emotion (also camp) was as perfect as has ever been in pro wrestling.  He was the star of their show and a very important reason those shows were and continue to be so much fun.  Of course, I’m not talking about the awful WWE network versions with careless music updates.  

Lastly, I’ve never heard Brandi do ring announcing, but I believe she’d be good as she has a beautiful voice.  She’s very talented with a microphone and I very much hope she does what she does best upon any return.  Tho, she unfortunately seems to require an injury or some blatant sign to keep her out of the ring.

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10 hours ago, Gordberg said:

It strikes me as extremely cool that Gorman has called matches that NoFists has participated in. For whatever reason, that makes me really happy.

As for what's to be done about JR in AEW, I honestly feel like he'd contribute so much more in a reduced role... but I have no idea how the people around him in AEW feel about that, and it seems at odds with what the man himself wants. And, thinking about it, if he were to just disappear from AEW TV completely I am quite sure a lot of us would miss him. I'm sure glad it's not my decision to make!

That is really cool! I either didn't know that or I forgot it. ESPN experience, as well, is an impressive thing to have on your resume. 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you can see why this place is (probably) the best place on the internet to discuss pro wrestling. There really are a lot of interesting people, with interesting and varied points of view, participating here. 

I've been an on and off member of this board since inception, and was on RSPW/RSPW-M since 95 or 96, and it's always enhanced the experience of watching and enjoying pro wrestling. The closest I have to ring experience is sitting ringside for a CMLL show in Cuernavaca and having to scramble out of the way to avoid getting wiped out by a tope suicida!

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To give credit to Tony, he seems to pick up MOVEZ knowledge from Excalibur pretty well.
 

If you watch any of the shows where it’s him and Big Show commentating he’s out there calling out moves with Japanese names he would have never known before and even thanks Excalibur from time to time on air. It’s pretty cute.

Edited by eikerir
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Joey Styles got fired from Evolve (and Chikara) in 2016 for making a joke about how (his hero) President Trump would like to grab a female ring announcer by the (word he didn't say). He's a bigtime MAGA Conservative Republican. Hasn't worked in Wrestling since, AFAIK.

And whilst it's a never say never industry, I really don't see Tony Khan being the guy to bring him back.

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1 hour ago, Stefanie the Human said:

I'm very much into the idea of Excalibur PBP/Schiavone color for the idea of Excalibur knowing the moves and what makes them tick, and Schiavone's joyful enthusiasm about them.

 

This.  Tony's enjoyment shines through and he's awesome on color because of it. It's just a personal preference but I really want AEW to be different from the negativity and awfulness that's been such a hallmark of wrestling's past.  We hear so much about how happy the workers there are and I don't think we need an announcer who clearly dislikes a high percentage of what he's seeing, makes inappropriate comments about women, low-key insinuates that guys should get on the gas, etc.  I just want to enjoy my happy fun wrestling show without an old curmudgeon taking a big ol' BBQ dump on it.  That's just me, YMMV, etc etc.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

Joey Styles got fired from Evolve (and Chikara) in 2016 for making a joke about how (his hero) President Trump would like to grab a female ring announcer by the (word he didn't say). He's a bigtime MAGA Conservative Republican. Hasn't worked in Wrestling since, AFAIK.

And whilst it's a never say never industry, I really don't see Tony Khan being the guy to bring him back.

1 hour ago, (BP) said:

Hard to believe the first guy that figured out a way to make a living by screaming about wrestling in a basement turned out to be an uncouth douche. 

Call me crazy, but I'm not so sure this qualifies him as an uncouth douche...

Quote

Gabe told me specifically, that here tonight on EVOLVE's very first live broadcast on floslam.tv, that I was *not* to do any political jokes. Now why anybody in their right mind would tell me not to do something on a live broadcast and then hand me a live microphone is beyond me. First and foremost Joanna, I want to say that you look lovely tonight. And if our next president was here tonight, he would want to grab you by the.... I didn't say it Gabe, I didn't say it...but the word I did not say brings me to you, Stokely Hathaway..."

This is an awkward joke, but it doesn't really read as a booster for Trump.  It's like a weak late night monologue joke.  I'm all for cancelling Styles if we can negotiate Colbert and Fallon being cancelled in there too.  

Or is Styles being a douche simply because he's a conservative?  I've never voted conservative, or PC (Canadian), nor do I see myself any time soon.  Needless to say, outside of McDonald Trump, I have a lot more tolerance for conflicting political views than the average vocal American or twitter user. I'm curious as to where the Trump-Hero talk comes from?  He doesn't seem to be involved in social media.  The only thing I've heard about his politics is Cornette blabbering on about his republican allegiance.  Did he contribute a large sum of money to his re-election campaign? 

Quote

Chris Irvine of Florida contributed a total of $13,700, to Donald J. Trump for President, Inc. and the Republican National Committee in 2020. Chris Jericho of Florida gave an additional $24,660 to Winred and Trump committees, for a total of $38,360

I think he'd fit in nicely with Chris and Jake and Vickie and...

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5 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

@HarryArchieGus I think the issue with Styles was more to do with willfully not following explicit direction, moreso than anything he believes or supports in his personal life. If Gabe said "Don't talk about McDonalds" and he hit the ring with a Big Mac joke, I'd expect the same result.

I don't mean to say I don't understand the firing.  I certainly get that.  I wish Tony would make somewhat similar demands towards JR and his live mic.  

3 minutes ago, Infinit said:

Styles called him "future president"...that sounds like trump boosterismto me. I'm pretty sure that's the type of "political talk" that Gabe told him not to partake in.

Ridiculous.  There were plenty of ppl suggesting Trump would be the next president.  What's that guy's name who has predicted every president in recent history?  He claimed a Trump victory.  

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“Ha! These utter morons paying me to be here were stupid enough to give me a live mic and expect me not to make the same lame ass joke that everyone else in every form of media has already made this week! Wait, I’m fired?”

Edited by (BP)
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Styles peak was pretty much when he could do his commentary in post after watching the matches and scripting everything, including his side notes.  He was total shit with a live mic (hence why he eventually needed Gertner and Calis whenever ECW did live shows.  

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31 minutes ago, Infinit said:

He made that comment ON A SHOW WHERE HIS BOSS TOLD HIM NOT TO MAKE ANY POLITICAL STATEMENTS lol

Did you capitalize that before I suggested I understood his firing?

22 minutes ago, Raziel said:

Styles peak was pretty much when he could do his commentary in post after watching the matches and scripting everything, including his side notes.  He was total shit with a live mic (hence why he eventually needed Gertner and Calis whenever ECW did live shows.  

Funny, I thought, like everybody I knew that was an ECW fan at the time, that he was remarkable as solo act on those early PPV shows.  There seemed to be a lot of critical praise for the work he did there.  I always assumed Gertner being added to the (still taped) TNN show as a network want (as in a 2 man team not for Joel specifically), but you seem to know otherwise?  Also, clearly there is tremendous pressure to work commentary solo.  And Live would obviously be a lot more difficult than taped (like all of their shows minus PPV).  Callis was a no brainer to add to commentary and Styles-Callis made for the best PPV announce team there has ever been.  But that's just an opinon, clearly we differ.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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7 minutes ago, HarryArchieGus said:

Callis was a no brainer to add to commentary and Styles-Callis made for the best PPV announce team there has ever been. 

I'll agree on that one, they were truly great (and it's been nice seeing Callis having a bit of a resurgence). JR/King was getting a bit tired, and IIRC this was when WCW were trying out various incarnations involving Mark Madden that were less than stellar, so they were a huge breath of fresh air. I wonder how that stuff would hold up if revisted, I avoided most ECW when I had the Network due to the music rights stuff.

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Doing solo commentary isn't easy, but at least nobody is stepping on your words, and you get to lay out the entire story of the match just the way you like. It also helps when you are sending out footage to potential employers when you don't have someone else talking.

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15 hours ago, Hagan said:

A wrestling commentator is a part of the show. The job is to sell what they’re seeing not continually undercut what the company is presenting. It’s not Joe Buck calling an NFL game. I don’t recall Lance Russell in Memphis doing shit like that. What does Ross’s ‘credibility’ even mean? I’m sure Kevin Kelly doesn’t agree with NJPW booking but he manages to not bitch about their house style. 

Credibility of the announcer means that when JR says that “Fans, you’re not going to want to miss the ppv because  CM Punk and MJF have a tremendous amount of animosity towards each other and are going to beat the absolute piss out of each other. It will be an absolute slobberknocker ” people still believe him.

And people believe him more than (most if not all) other announcers precisely because he doesn’t lie to us and call a pile of crap a bouquet of roses. And has literally been a straight shooter on commentary since a lot of us were kids.

As part of the show it’s the wrestlers job to not bury the referees and announcers  by doing stupid and unnecessary things that make everyone else look stupid.

The comically blatant disregard of the rules to get their stuff in also isn’t the “house style” either. 

Because numerous wrestlers are consistently able to operate within the confines of the commonly known rules (and only break them behind the backs of the officials). 
 

Also, recall that Jericho called a talent meeting shortly after Dynamite debuted and laid into the tag teams for not following rules, including ones as basic as tagging in. Another thing Tony Khan didn’t stop despite these house style claims.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Credibility of the announcer means that when JR says that “Fans, you’re not going to want to miss the ppv because  CM Punk and MJF have a tremendous amount of animosity towards each other and are going to beat the absolute piss out of each other. It will be an absolute slobberknocker ” people still believe him.

And people believe him more than (most if not all) other announcers precisely because he doesn’t lie to us and call a pile of crap a bouquet of roses. And has literally been a straight shooter on commentary since a lot of us were kids.

As part of the show it’s the wrestlers job to not bury the referees and announcers  by doing stupid and unnecessary things that make everyone else look stupid.

The comically blatant disregard of the rules to get their stuff in also isn’t the “house style” either. 

Because numerous wrestlers are consistently able to operate within the confines of the commonly known rules (and only break them behind the backs of the officials). 
 

Also, recall that Jericho called a talent meeting shortly after Dynamite debuted and laid into the tag teams for not following rules, including ones as basic as tagging in. Another thing Tony Khan didn’t stop despite these house style claims.

I absolutely agree on JR's credibility to the average viewer.  That also means when he's burying elements of the product, and its performers (shitting on Yuta tripping because of his shoes; wonder how the EVP Bucks feel about that), he's reaching that same audience as a disservice to the company.  I agree the in ring performers should not bury the refs and sometimes do, but who's doing that as blatantly as Jim on commentary.  There's a difference between bending rules and 'comically blantant(ly)' breaking them in front of the ref.  I see the former plenty, but rarely see the latter.  It's mindboggling to me that Tony doesn't discuss Jim's shortcomings with him directly in a way that positively changes his work.  Regardless of the criticisms, Jim remains somewhat of an asset, but he'd certainly be a much better asset with some restrictions.

Edited by HarryArchieGus
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34 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Credibility of the announcer means that when JR says that “Fans, you’re not going to want to miss the ppv because  CM Punk and MJF have a tremendous amount of animosity towards each other and are going to beat the absolute piss out of each other. It will be an absolute slobberknocker ” people still believe him.

And people believe him more than (most if not all) other announcers precisely because he doesn’t lie to us and call a pile of crap a bouquet of roses. And has literally been a straight shooter on commentary since a lot of us were kids.

As part of the show it’s the wrestlers job to not bury the referees and announcers  by doing stupid and unnecessary things that make everyone else look stupid.

The comically blatant disregard of the rules to get their stuff in also isn’t the “house style” either. 

Because numerous wrestlers are consistently able to operate within the confines of the commonly known rules (and only break them behind the backs of the officials). 
 

Also, recall that Jericho called a talent meeting shortly after Dynamite debuted and laid into the tag teams for not following rules, including ones as basic as tagging in. Another thing Tony Khan didn’t stop despite these house style claims.

 

 

I think it's important to point out that there are ways to point out inconsistencies without burying the talent.

Take, for example, when he pointed out Aubrey Edwards having a slow ten count during the Danielson/Miro match during Full Gear by saying something to the effect of that she was a great referee but she had the slowest ten count he'd ever seen.

It's a setup to a burying line, basically.

The way around that is to simply say "if you notice, the official's count appears slower than usual, with a match as important as the AEW World Title Eliminator Finals, you'll often see an official be a little more lax with their count outside of the ring".

Doesn't bury the ref, gets over that the match is important, while also acknowledging that yeah... count's a little slow, but while we don't want the match to end on a countout, we still have to enforce the rules.

No lies, no credibility hits, doesn't detract from the match. Easy peasy. And it's something he used to do, too.

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Yeah, he used to be really good about covering for things like that. Like the First Blood match where Stone Cold got a scratch on his back, which bled, well before the finish, and JR immediately said that the ref wasn't going to call it for a scratch, and shouldn't. I'm not sure the current Ross would do that.

The guy who gets mad when Excalibur says "The Wingmen say they're Vaxxed, Waxed and ready for Hot Boy Summer" and starts ranting about how it's nonsense, while Tony laughs and talks about how cool it sounds? Nah. He's not a guy who plays ball any more.

Edited by AxB
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Jim Ross's most famous era was him calling the Attitude Era. 

Of course, we all remember his famous calls during those  Steve Austin main events

*Austin and Rock brawling into the crowd as 20,000 people scream their heads off*

JR: "why isn't the damn ref counting? How long they gonna be out there? What's the point of rules?"

or, of course, who can forget those great Jeff Hardy ladder match calls:

"This just doesn't make sense, King. Why is he doing that swanton off the ladder when he needs to be focused on winning the match."

But, good on Jim Ross outside of WWE for having the the canonical "Rulebook of Wrestling" handy. 

AEW doesn't do DQs and countouts. Neither did ECW, except for the rare heel contrivance with Fonzie. Imagine ECW if Joey Styles had spent the hour bitching about the refs not calling the rules. 

 

Edited by Hagan
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