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Dynamite - 9/8/2021


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16 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Most people watching any TV show don't and won't do research to that level. They want to enjoy what's in front of them in that moment as easily as possible. Again, a quick clip would have sufficed, especially for potential new/casual fans. That's all.

 

7 minutes ago, EVA said:

Hard disagree. In fact, some of the biggest TV hits of the past decade have encouraged, and in some cases outright relied upon, viewers researching stuff on their own time to make sense of the show. Most TV producers consider shows requiring that type of engagement a feature, not a bug, these days.

Now, this to me is a REALLY interesting conversation: AEW as prestige television. Remember when Lost was airing? I wasn't an active poster here yet, but I remember the great thread here and it was so much fun watching you guys dissect Doc Jensen's EW columns. I spent A TON of time in high school/college reading all these books and researching all these literary references and religious allegories just for that show. 

Could I see someone committing to AEW on that level? I honestly don't know. It *is* a very savvy, very passionate fan base. 

Make no mistake, I stand by what I said before about agreeing with @Greggulatorand @Burgundy LaRuethat a little 15-30 sec clip is probably the smart move - but I think you guys stumbled on a really interesting lens to look at this through.

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1 minute ago, Matt D said:

Tone's an issue with everyone today, so I'll be kind in my response, but I'm pretty sure they didn't sign Punk and Danielson to just hit this point and coast?

Of course not, but let's not call a massive success a failure if it doesn't one day become THE BIGGEST success.

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Just now, John from Cincinnati said:

I've said what I want to say. I have no interest in talking about what the viewership is or isn't right now, and I promise you don't want me engaging in whatever psychodrama you're working through with regards to how Gregg engages with this product or any other product that people seem to be working through similar psychodramas about. 

Have fun with the perceived strawman. Nothing else there worth responding to.

In all fairness, what a fucking cop out and bullshit response when you're going to saying something as blatantly ignorant as:

35 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

This kind of response to a small minority criticism of AEW's presentation seems disproportionate. I wonder why some people have been reticent in engaging with this product. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Craig H said:

I think that's the trickiest part - not alienating the fans who are in the know. That requires keeping your edge, keeping what makes you unique, etc. while trying to cater to an audience that is going to be quicker to leave you than the base of over a million viewers each week. It's easy to wind up with nothing in the end. I'M GOING TO MAKE A STAR WARS COMPARISON, but this doesn't mean this shit is as big as Star Wars or whatever, but look at what Star Wars is doing on Disney+. The Mandalorian, the animated series, etc. aren't exactly trying to bring in casuals. Shit, I consider myself a hardcore Star Wars fan, but getting into the Clone Wars and other stuff seems like too tall of a task. I can't imagine people who aren't already Star Wars fans wanting to dip into that. So they just go about trying to expand their fan base by bringing them in young, cultivating them, growing them, etc. For the most part, it's working.

Can AEW do this? It's probably easier to try this than risk alienating what they already have, but then you risk a situation with WWE where that 18+ audience starts getting older, gets into watching football and other shit, and leaves wrestling behind.

I honestly don't know what the answer is. Probably some kind of conservative approach is best. Don't do anything huge or company changing, but just keep doing more cool shit than missteps?

I'd say the audience for Mandalorian and Bad Batch is very different.

  

2 minutes ago, Dog said:

Of course not, but let's not call a massive success a failure if it doesn't one day become THE BIGGEST success.

Not calling it a failure. I think most people on here only want the company to do well at this point and we're discussing ways that they can actively do that (or, I suppose, in Gregg's case, pain points he personally had with the product). Just because it did really well doesn't mean we can't admit that and suggest ways that they can BUILD on the opportunities created by that success.

Edited by Matt D
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Just now, Matt D said:

I'd say the audience for Mandalorian and Bad Batch is very different.

Oh, no doubt. The Mandalorian, season 2 anyway, has probably done the best job in attracting casuals viewers, but I think a lot of that is based on buzz and an Emmy nomination. I will finish watching the Bad Batch at some point.

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15 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

This kind of response to a small minority criticism of AEW's presentation seems disproportionate. I wonder why some people have been reticent in engaging with this product. 

Over the years, I've had several here assume that I only watch/follow/recognize WWE when it comes to wrestling. Which is presumptuous and rude. I'm no expert, but I'm not the dumb fuck-bitch some take me for.

I follow AEW. I watched All Out. My opinion doesn't exactly correspond with the majority, and I don't need to be told how stupid I am for that. I've done the constant arguments on the board before, and I'm pretty sure I took several years off my life for it.

Do I consider myself a huge AEW fan? No. I don't care for the fake-trendsetting frat boy approach from many of their wrestlers and diehard fans alike.

They do several things well. But--in my opinion--they stink on other things. Pretty much like every other wrestling or sports entertainment company.

Could I eventually become a dyed-in-the-wool fan? Don't know. I'll follow along for now and see. But I'm not looking to be part of online shouting matches anymore.  I'm too old and sickly for such.

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God, I regret reading the last couple pages.  I don't think this thread killed any brain cells, but I wouldn't be surprised if a couple are scanning the want ads right now looking for a better gig.  

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10 minutes ago, Craig H said:

In all fairness, what a fucking cop out and bullshit response when you're going to saying something as blatantly ignorant as:

 

There are people who either aren't watching or aren't willing to engage with this product openly. Because of shit like what's happening here. I stand by that. If you feel attacked by that very broad notion, I welcome you to reflect on why that is. I apologize for not having the energy to believe anything I type that can magically cure years of whatever you've dug your heels in on. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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46 minutes ago, Dog said:

I do believe it's possible to watch and enjoy a TV show while declining to talk about it with weirdos on the internet.

Or as Rippa puts it, "I hate the people that like the same stuff that I do."

8 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Over the years, I've had several here assume that I only watch/follow/recognize WWE when it comes to wrestling. Which is presumptuous and rude. I'm no expert, but I'm not the dumb fuck-bitch some take me for.

I love you, sis.  I may occasionally give you a hard time but TMK, I have never insulted your intellect or referred to you with a derogatory term.

You know me.  If I can't disagree respectfully, I don't say anything at all.

Edited by J.T.
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8 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I've said what I want to say. I have no interest in talking about what the viewership is or isn't right now, and I promise you don't want me engaging in whatever psychodrama you're working through with regards to how Gregg engages with this product or any other product that people seem to be working through similar psychodramas about. 

Have fun with the perceived strawman. Nothing else there worth responding to.

The thing about making an "I'm leaving the discussion" post, is that someone might take it as a cue to spend hours searching the archive for your old posts. Old posts in which you engage in the behaviour you are now declining to engage in (even if you have already conceded that such behaviour can be legitimately satisfying). And nobody wants that, do they?

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7 minutes ago, Zakk_Sabbath said:

Now, this to me is a REALLY interesting conversation: AEW as prestige television. Remember when Lost was airing? I wasn't an active poster here yet, but I remember the great thread here and it was so much fun watching you guys dissect Doc Jensen's EW columns. I spent A TON of time in high school/college reading all these books and researching all these literary references and religious allegories just for that show. 

Could I see someone committing to AEW on that level? I honestly don't know. It *is* a very savvy, very passionate fan base. 

Hmm. Admittedly, my TV viewing has greatly decreased over the years, so I could easily be lagging behind on how it's approached by younger audiences. Thinking back to when I got into GoT, I hadn't read a single book. Still haven't and likely never will. I followed the threads here, but mostly because I was in the Movies & TV section, anyway. I wouldn't have actively seeked out anything otherwise. I felt like I understood what I needed to know without going further.

I haven't looked at wrestling as prestige television. Interesting idea, though.

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I think it's baffling how a simple request blew up into an argument that nobody really wins on.  Kind of makes me wonder what would happen if it was pretty much anybody else but Greggulator that said that.

Edited by NikoBaltimore
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Just now, John from Cincinnati said:

There are people who either aren't watching or aren't willing to engage with this product openly. Because of shit like what's happening here. I stand by that. If you feel attacked by that very broad notion, I welcome you to reflect on why that is. I apologize for not having the energy to believe anything I type that can magically cure years or whatever you've dug your heels in on. 

You're so full of shit. You can look at the viewership on a weekly basis, see actual proof that people are watching, they are engaging, they are buying tickets, they are buying gobs of merchandise, and anyone that might be resistant isn't because of shit that's happening on here. You're smart enough to know that DVDVR =/= what everyone else does, says, or thinks. We're like the most fucking niche of audiences and an extremely small and limited one at that. 

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Just now, AxB said:

The thing about making an "I'm leaving the discussion" post, is that someone might take it as a cue to spend hours searching the archive for your old posts. Old posts in which you engage in the behaviour you are now declining to engage in (even if you have already conceded that such behaviour can be legitimately satisfying). And nobody wants that, do they?

I'd read it if they did and I'd probably throw them a like because I enjoy that sort of thing. Don't threaten me with a good time. 

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8 minutes ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Hmm. Admittedly, my TV viewing has greatly decreased over the years, so I could easily be lagging behind on how it's approached by younger audiences. Thinking back to when I got into GoT, I hadn't read a single book. Still haven't and likely never will. I followed the threads here, but mostly because I was in the Movies & TV section, anyway. I wouldn't have actively seeked out anything otherwise. I felt like I understood what I needed to know without going further.

I haven't looked at wrestling as prestige television. Interesting idea, though.

I have to admit that I'm not 100% sure how casual TV watching even works for people under 35 or so. Do people watch things without following them? Are people watching football without also watching ESPN or reading things online? Does anyone watch the CW superhero shows without reading about casting and what not? If you're on social media at all, this stuff comes to you. I'm not sure what people are doing with their time, especially during a pandemic. I get that not everyone under a certain age uses Facebook, but they've been pushing the news feature on that and just from my online activity, I can't not know about Vince changing the script to Raw or Marvel picking up foir more slots for movies in 2024 or way too much about Joe Manchin.

I can tell you that my 19 year old simply doesn't watch TV. He follows everything online through youtube or streaming service and then never on our TV but on his phone or the computer. We watch stuff on TV every night. He simply does not, even if we're watching some of the same things.

Edit: Social media just told me, without me looking for it, that Samoa Joe was supposed to be on Raw tonight.

Edited by Matt D
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16 minutes ago, Craig H said:

You're so full of shit. You can look at the viewership on a weekly basis, see actual proof that people are watching, they are engaging, they are buying tickets, they are buying gobs of merchandise, and anyone that might be resistant isn't because of shit that's happening on here. You're smart enough to know that DVDVR =/= what everyone else does, says, or thinks. We're like the most fucking niche of audiences and an extremely small and limited one at that. 

The discourse here isn't anomalous from much of the AEW discourse I've seen out in the wild. I understand why you'd want to separate yourself from that and its effects on people who aren't as in as you are. But it's not at all different. Sorry. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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Just now, John from Cincinnati said:

The discourse here isn't anomalous from much of the AEW discourse I've seen out in the wild. I understand why you'd want to separate yourself from that and its effects on people who aren't as in as you are. But it's not at all different. Sorry. 

And yet that doesn't refute what the actual numbers show regardless of what some idiot on Twitter or wherever else you lurk may say. Not to mention for the one other place I may look for wrestling news or updates that isn't the WO, which would be Reddit, it's solely for headlines for articles or videos and none of the rest of the bullshit. Even then, just at a quick glance, there's just as many fucking bizarre people who are anti-anything WWE, especially AEW, in r/sc, not to mention that there's scjerk which is the weirdest, strangest group of toxic fans I've ever seen.

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1 hour ago, Craig H said:

I only have one question for @Greggulator- Did you watch All Out? It sounds like you did, but I'm not certain you did.

No I didn't. But the buzz about it is why I finally decided to watch AEW. 

And guess what? I LIKED IT! There was a lot of the show I did like.  I spent a lot of my weekend watching the back episodes that I could watch via Roku to get caught up to speed. I really liked Rampage a lot. 

But they did some things that I thought they could have done better. None of these are dealbreakers. I'm going to keep watching. But, in all honesty, the number one thing that's going to sour me on the programming are Comic Shop Guys about all of this who can't believe that I -- a person who did not watch All Out and who does not follow Japanese wrestling -- would want to see about 15 seconds worth of screen time to show me why this guy was a big deal, and why it was a big deal for Jon Moxley (who I do know) to face him. 

Why is this such a controversial statement or belief? I don't want to have to go on a big research trail to see who is fighting someone on a wrestling show. I just want to watch wrestling. 

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