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Dynamite - 9/8/2021


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Yeah, but if you're going to try and use "You know too much about wrestling" as a way to dunk on somebody, this isn't really the place to do that, is it? Like, a lot of people  here are proud to know so much about wrestling, so mocking one person for it is likely to unleash a disproportionate backlash, innit?

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7 minutes ago, Craig H said:

And yet that doesn't refute what the actual numbers show

The actual numbers show them doing good business. That doesn't mean there aren't people hesitant to engage with a product associated with a toxic fan culture. Both things can be true at once, and I feel condescending even having to explain that to you. Lots of successful undertakings have toxic fanbases that run people off. I'm sorry if that's news. 

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1 minute ago, Greggulator said:

No I didn't. But the buzz about it is why I finally decided to watch AEW. 

And guess what? I LIKED IT! There was a lot of the show I did like.  I spent a lot of my weekend watching the back episodes that I could watch via Roku to get caught up to speed. I really liked Rampage a lot. 

But they did some things that I thought they could have done better. None of these are dealbreakers. I'm going to keep watching. But, in all honesty, the number one thing that's going to sour me on the programming are Comic Shop Guys about all of this who can't believe that I -- a person who did not watch All Out and who does not follow Japanese wrestling -- would want to see about 15 seconds worth of screen time to show me why this guy was a big deal, and why it was a big deal for Jon Moxley (who I do know) to face him. 

Why is this such a controversial statement or belief? I don't want to have to go on a big research trail to see who is fighting someone on a wrestling show. I just want to watch wrestling. 

Rampage feels like more up your alley for what NXT used to be. I said the other day that I would like to see Rampage be 2 hours, but honestly, an hour works pretty perfectly. 

There is honestly an awful lot you've missed out on, which is what makes your takes a fascinating read because you're not a casual fan, but you're someone who is wanting to jump into this and not on day one. When I think back to when I got into wrestling when I was 4, so we're talking 84/85, that felt like day one to me. It was simpler and easier to watch. Jumping in now feels like jumping into Better Call Saul right in the middle of season 3 or 4 and not understanding why Lalo is fucking amazing. The explanation is there, but man, that's a lot of legwork to go through to really absorb it and understand.

You had made comments about Darby and it's like, shit, that guy has had a whole story arch since practically day one. It sucks to miss out on that and I'm not sure what the solution is other than history of videos on YouTube if they ever make them.

As for Moxley vs MiSu, that's a tougher nut to crack. I get where you're coming from and it's flip or glib to just say, I don't know man, that's just how wrestling is, do the work yourself or just be comfortable that you're not going to know everything. You seem like someone that wants to absorb as much info as possible and so it's tough when you can't. Wresting is just so weird though. I don't even know if 15 to 30 seconds of MiSu would explain why he's awesome. A bunch of us have given reasons why, but it's like, does it really matter what we're saying? The closest thing I can think of as a comparison is when you had Sabu jumping off of the Raw sign. I didn't watch ECW then, I didn't know what ECW was, I didn't know who Sabu was, ECW wasn't on in my area at the time, and I just didn't get why it was a big deal. There were no video packages for any of those guys, it was all just commentary. Yet, for some reason, that sparked something in my brain to just want to know more. Why was this such a big deal. Who are these guys? Why are they on Raw? What is even going on? I didn't even have a computer at that time. I was just totally lost, but I still felt the urge to know more. Then I started paying attention to PWI magazines at the grocery store. Everything eventually backfilled, but it took a long time. I guess what I'm trying to say is that wrestling is just to broad and diverse sometimes. A lot of the time, really. We're all not going to know everything. If I were to take a guess, it's that without the benefit of a video package, TK went that ECW appearing on Raw route to see what kind of interest that would spark in people. That's a tactic that could easily fail or succeed. You're not wrong to want what you want. And that worked in some and didn't in others. 

Honestly, the biggest failing with all of that was how short the match even was and not giving people the full MiSu experience. I could easily see people looking at this old Japanese dude with a weird shave head beating up on Moxley and wondering why this old man is beating up on Moxley.

If anything comes from this, it's TK and AEW risking doing way, way too much. A lot of us like the forbidden door stuff, but you know what, as cool as it is, I don't want to see Impact guys on AEW and sometimes, I just want 2.0 acting like 2.0. I want Chuck Taylor on my TV every week. I don't need a lot of the forbidden door bloat when the roster is as fantastic and interesting as it already is.

Sorry, this was all very rambling, but hopefully it makes some sort of sense.

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18 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

No I didn't. But the buzz about it is why I finally decided to watch AEW. 

And guess what? I LIKED IT! There was a lot of the show I did like.  I spent a lot of my weekend watching the back episodes that I could watch via Roku to get caught up to speed. I really liked Rampage a lot. 

But they did some things that I thought they could have done better. None of these are dealbreakers. I'm going to keep watching. But, in all honesty, the number one thing that's going to sour me on the programming are Comic Shop Guys about all of this who can't believe that I -- a person who did not watch All Out and who does not follow Japanese wrestling -- would want to see about 15 seconds worth of screen time to show me why this guy was a big deal, and why it was a big deal for Jon Moxley (who I do know) to face him. 

Why is this such a controversial statement or belief? I don't want to have to go on a big research trail to see who is fighting someone on a wrestling show. I just want to watch wrestling. 

I think your criticisms are fair and I think AEW has had an issue with assuming fans know more than they actually do which has led to some lackluster debuts,

For example, I remember The Butcher and The Blade debuting to silence because almost nobody in the building knew who they were when they came out of the ring.

The only issue is they have more talent they can use in the time they have, so it’s difficult to take away from guys for video packages even if it would help in the long run.

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19 minutes ago, Greggulator said:

But, in all honesty, the number one thing that's going to sour me on the programming are Comic Shop Guys about all of this who can't believe that I -- a person who did not watch All Out and who does not follow Japanese wrestling -- would want to see about 15 seconds worth of screen time to show me why this guy was a big deal, and why it was a big deal for Jon Moxley (who I do know) to face him. 

Why is this such a controversial statement or belief?

Because it's completely within your power to avoid those Comic Shop Guys, the same way I avoid Rick and Morty mouthbreathers. I'm not excusing shitty fan behavior, but you can only control what you do -- and you can choose not to go to the places where there's shitty fan behavior. Don't let other people dictate what you can and can't enjoy.

2 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

The actual numbers show them doing good business. That doesn't mean there aren't people hesitant to engage with a product associated with a toxic fan culture. Both things can be true at once, and I feel condescending even having to explain that to you. Lots of successful undertakings have toxic fanbases that run people off. I'm sorry if that's news. 

I'd like to know your definition of "engage." Does that include just watching, or do you have to talk about it online, too? I'm beating a dead horse here, but it's perfectly possible to watch while not talking to disagreeable shitheads. Again, the toxic fan culture doesn't turn millions of "normal" people away from watching Rick and Morty. 🤷‍♂️

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You can check my post history if you want, since apparently that's a thing people do, but you may notice I rarely engage with weekly threads outside of occasional comments about little random spots I liked that I think may be underrepresented in the conversation.

It's not because I don't watch the shows. I watch them every week.

It's because, to be frank, a lot of obsessive wrestling talk gets tribalistic and insufferable, and that just bums me out.

I don't watch wrestling or come to message boards to feel the need to dunk on other people for the stuff they like. I watch and discuss it because of things I actively enjoy. I don't understand the compulsion that folks have to go "this person is criticizing a thing I liked! THEY MUST BE CASTIGATED! SURELY IT IS A JUDGMENT OF MY PERSONAL SENSIBILITIES!!!"

Do y'all have this same problem with other things? If someone else eats vanilla ice cream, do you get irrationally mad because you like chocolate?

(You mint chocolate chip haters can leave me alone.)

I don't get it. Don't we have better things to spend our energy on?

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1 hour ago, Burgundy LaRue said:

Most people watching any TV show don't and won't do research to that level. They want to enjoy what's in front of them in that moment as easily as possible. Again, a quick clip would have sufficed, especially for potential new/casual fans. That's all.

They showed a clip of Suzuki laying out Mox at the PPV.

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3 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

I know. There's a thread here specifically for patting yourself on the back for making that comparison. 🙂 

So why are are people prohibited from watching AEW due to toxic fan culture, then? Burgundy and Stefanie have both said they watch AEW, but don't usually participate much in the forum. Why is it possible for them, but apparently no one else?

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1 minute ago, Craig H said:

I don't know which Gunn kid is which just like I don't know which Uso is which.

Austin looks like a jackal as somebody said last week. He's the shorter and more charismatic of the two that's been around longer. Colten is the one that never loses and will beat Miro and then Kenny. You'll soon know him by all the gold he's draped in.

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How soon until we get a Gunn family reality tv show? Or maybe a Pawn Stars type show. Call it the Gunn Safe.

EDIT: Look man, I'm not just going to keep giving you these slashfic ideas for free.

EDIT 2: Oh god, going to regret this...The Gunn Safe, brought to you by Brazzers.

Edited by Craig H
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5 minutes ago, Dog said:

So why are are people prohibited from watching AEW due to toxic fan culture, then? Burgundy and Stefanie have both said they watch AEW, but don't usually participate much in the forum. Why is it possible for them, but apparently no one else?

Who's talking about being prohibited? And I don't recall mentioning either of them. If you'd like to pretend the number of people not watching this shit or becoming enthusiastic about it because of the fanbase is zero, you're welcome to live in your comforting fantasy world. Once again, I realize it's not something people want to think they're a part of. 

Edited by John from Cincinnati
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7 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Who's talking about being prohibited? And I don't recall mentioning either of them. If you'd like to pretend the number of people not watching this shit or becoming enthusiastic about it because of the fanbase is zero, you're welcome to live in your comforting fantasy world. Once again, I realize it's not something people want to think they're a part of. 

What the hell are you talking about? Okay, let's go back to first principles:

1) Greggulator (whose posts I actually like) says the #1 thing preventing him from from liking AEW is the fanbase.

2) People point out that it's entirely possible to watch the show without engaging with the fanbase.

3) Two people post in this thread saying that they watch AEW while only minimally engaging with the fanbase.

#3 seems like pretty good evidence for #2, which casts further doubt on #1. Which part do you disagree with?

EDIT: And if you're loading up a vaguely insulting response that doesn't address the point, please save it.

Edited by Dog
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4 minutes ago, John from Cincinnati said:

Who's talking about being prohibited? And I don't recall mentioning either of them. If you'd like to pretend the number of people not watching this shit or becoming enthusiastic about it because of the fanbase is zero, you're welcome to live in your comforting fantasy world. Once again, I realize it's not something people want to think they're a part of. 

Couldn't you say that about literally everything? There are always going to be "toxic" views/opinions/people and there are always going to be people with differing levels of sensitivity to those "toxic" views/opinions/people. 

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Exactly. It's no different than people on twitter trying the whole "AEW fans are tribalistic" - while you then have those same fans suck Vinces nuts over every single minute decision he makes.

Look, I've turned about 3 non wrestling fans into fans through AEW. I'll stream the shows I'm watching through the discord so they can watch with me and after about two years of them digesting occasional AEW and WWE, guess who they prefer?

AEW. And the reason being the storylines make sense. My buddy said "MJF goes from being GI Cody (that's what he calls him) friend to where he is now. You can see clear story progrssion which you don't get with WWE. He said and I quote "they try to hit you over the head with the same information so much, you don't see anything new" and I kinda understand what he means.

Granted this is a different scenario because if those casuals have any questions they can ask me, but I just love that AEW is what's gotten them to actually enjoy what we all love. I also showed them Beyond the Mat on Friday and him seeing Jake Roberts then vs. now gave him a whole new appreciation for Jake.

I dont know what that has to do with any of this, but yeah. I'm just happy AEW is even getting my friends interested. That just tickles me pink. The more the merrier.

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13 minutes ago, Dog said:

What the hell are you talking about? Okay, let's go back to first principles:

1) Greggulator (whose posts I actually like) says the #1 thing preventing him from from liking AEW is the fanbase.

2) People point out that it's entirely possible to watch the show without engaging with the fanbase.

3) Two people post in this thread saying that they watch AEW while only minimally engaging with the fanbase.

#3 seems like pretty good evidence for #2, which casts further doubt on #1. Which part do you disagree with?

People like one and two can exist at the same time. If doubting one gives you comfort or makes or you feel less attacked for your own conduct or whatever's happening here, so be it. 

13 minutes ago, Infinit said:

Couldn't you say that about literally everything? There are always going to be "toxic" views/opinions/people and there are always going to be people with differing levels of sensitivity to those "toxic" views/opinions/people. 

My general theory is a thing needs to reach a certain level of niche popularity for discourse to get really toxic and reinforce itself. So not literally everything. Things that fewer people pay attention to attract fewer differing viewpoints, resulting in less horseshit. AEW's built a big tent. Some people are deeply resentful of other types of people being in the tent, going all the way back to the first page of this very thread. Maybe it's "always" going to be that way, but I'm hopeful some people can improve things. 

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1 minute ago, John from Cincinnati said:

People like one and two can exist at the same time. If doubting one gives you comfort or makes or you feel less attacked for your own conduct or whatever's happening here, so be it.

So you're saying that Greggulator NEEDS to engage with the AEW fanbase to enjoy AEW? Apparently I have a higher opinion of him than you do.

I see you (the guy asking for higher "discourse") still couldn't resist the vague insult. Can you point out an example of my terrible conduct? Genuinely curious, so I may potentially change it.

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3 minutes ago, Dog said:

So you're saying that Greggulator NEEDS to engage with the AEW fanbase to enjoy AEW? Apparently I have a higher opinion of him than you do.

@Greggulatordefinitely needs to watch BTE at .75 speed and backwards while high on six Wawa F'Real mint chip milkshakes in order to understand AEW.

 

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I haven't been following this conversation that closely, but would people tuning in for buzz/Punk/whatever stick around if they enjoyed enough of the show, even if some elements were not as well fleshed out as maybe they could be (they try to pack a lot in, there's not going to be recaps) and then become well versed as they watch more regularly? Perhaps it is not the broadest net that AEW could cast, but it seems fair to me. Maybe there are a few things that people tune in for and they find a reason to stick around.

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47 minutes ago, Stefanie the Human said:

You mint chocolate chip haters can leave me alone.)

 

6 minutes ago, Matt D said:

while high on six Wawa F'Real mint chip milkshakes in order to understand AEW.

I thought we were friends, turns out I never truly knew either of you...

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