AEW Dynamite - 11/25/2020

[Custos]

42 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

So it turns out I wasn't hearing things and Taz's son is actually named Hook. 

It’s a step up from Rufio or Smee (...or is it?)

I can’t help but envision a Puke-esque Vince pitch ‘He emanates from Red Hook and he’ll hook ya. That’s the hook, pal. And he’ll get his hooks in you. And you’ll be hooked. It’s that simple, quite frankly.’

Edit in aid of my community reputation at 666: at home, he puts those hooks in the ceiling for that well-hung feeling 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Custos

[The Natural]

3 minutes ago, Custos said:

It’s a step up from Rufio or Smee (...or is it?)

I can’t help but envision a Puke-esque Vince pitch ‘He emanates from Red Hook and he’ll hook ya. That’s the hook, pal. And he’ll get his hooks in you. And you’ll be hooked. It’s that simple, quite frankly.’

Edit in aid of my community reputation at 666: at home, he puts those hooks in the ceiling for that well-hung feeling 

667 now :).

[Phantom Lord]

Another good show tonight, though as much as I love Taz from ECW this angle with Cody makes no sense. He brings back the FTW title and AEW doesn't recognize it. Well duh. Does AEW need a low card singles title? I think they do. Should it be the FTW title? No. Ah well I marked out for the Tazmission. Someone asked Taz on twitter yesterday if we'll ever see it in AEW and he said "maybe". The only thing that sucks is Taz can't wrestle. Maybe he has a brawl left in him, but he can't wrestle. So there's no point of him getting physical with anyone.

Aside from that it was another good show. John Silver is going to be such a breakout star for them.

i was glad to see Butcher/Blade finally win one.

[BrianS81177]

Starks never really did anything for me in the NWA, but man oh man is he great in AEW. He's quite good when he sits on commentary for Dark too. 

[Octopus]

 

I felt the dad line fit the character. He comes of condescending while thinking he’s clever. I really enjoy this Tweener-Heel thing he’s doing now. The personality clash of him and Mox is great. Confident prick-nerd vs combat boots on a treadmill. 

On a related side note: AEW does an interesting job at having characters that are so mixed reviewed (at least on here) of not hitting some but super-loved by others. Kenny being this example, but that fits Cody’s over the top showmanship, Hangman’s moodiness, JR’s sassle-frass, etc. All come across as valid reasons to dislike them, but at the same time are why they connect with others. Good character depth with some of the guys. 

[Mr Harms]

I loved this episode. Every week seems to feel more and more chaotic. I think they've got a great mix of promos and wrestling on the show now, it still moves at a fast pace, and the wrestling is rarely bad. Top to bottom on the card there are people I'm into, that other people might not be, and I think that's great for the show.

I like Kenny's character, and I can't wait for the match next week. I'd like Kenny to win the title, maybe Mox gets laid out again after by the mystery assailant, and he can go and do Japan, maybe take a little break after. 

Ricky Starks is absolutely terrific, I'm buying into Team Taz slowly but surely. I think Hobbs can use some seasoning as a badass heel before turning some time down the line, and this should be a great combo. 

I like the Dark Order, I love Hangman, I think they should get together. Uno would never abandon Page like the Bucks and Kenny did. 

Also, a year or so ago, I'd say who the fuck is John Silver? But now? I wanna buy his merch. I need a Meat Man t-shirt. The Midnight Meat Train, Johnny Hungie, I'm all in!

 

[AxB]

"The Hangman has beaten the meat, man!" - Jim Ross.

[Mr Harms]

5 minutes ago, AxB said:

"The Hungman has beaten the meat, man!" - Jim Ross.

^

[tbarrie]

18 minutes ago, Mr Harms said:

Also, a year or so ago, I'd say who the fuck is John Silver? But now? I wanna buy his merch. I need a Meat Man t-shirt. The Midnight Meat Train, Johnny Hungie, I'm all in!

Yeah, I don't know if I ever mentioned that I didn't get the hype around Silver, but after Full Gear that was no longer the case. His reactions to Orange's schtick were hilarious and he more than held his own when it was time for the action to get serious. Last night's performance wasn't as good, but it was still good.

[J.T.]

A pretty good show last night.  

• Silver and Page put on a really entertaining match.  I wish that Dark Order's leadership only consisted of Stu and Uno rather than this whole Exalted One bullshit since Uno really does shine in his role as Dark Order pitch man.
• I am convinced that Cody has no idea how to book himself as a face.  Cody bringing Taz's kid into the picture and making shit personal just makes Team Taz's FTW Title crusade feel righteous, and I don't think I am supposed to be sympathetic to the supposed heels in this feud.  I know it's pro wrestling so just because Taz's son left the ring with him doesn't rule out a swerve where he ends up joining the Nightmare Family, but I am not sure I want that to happen.  Ricky Starks cut a promo that was fire.  It was good to see him assume a role other than the smallest member of the stable.
• I wish Darby weren't involved in all of this Team Taz vs. Nightmare Family bullshit.  Just let the dude roll solo and defend his belt.
• Inner Circle vs. SCU was a match.  I may have to get a Painmaker t-shirt.  Any segment that ends with MJF writing in agony works for me.  I'm really not interested in a match where Jericho beats up Kaz in a by the numbers match.
• I could watch Top Flight vs. Hybrid2 all day.  I almost wish that there were junior tag belts for them to feud over, but I don't want AEW to be too belt heavy.
• Shida vs. Anna Jay was not entirely horrible.  Anna has the heel psychology down and she'll be a much more credible threat once she has more confidence in her spots. I was hoping that Anna would pull off the upset even though I knew Shida would win, but I am good with Shida and Abadon beating the shit out of each other next Wednesday.  Abadon territorial bleeding on the title belt by licking it was the best.  It looks like this match is building towards Anna vs. Tay since Conti wasn't exactly the best ringside accomplice when it came to helping Jay cheat to win.  AEW could stand to have some feuds in the women's division that don't revolve around the title, but those matches will probably end up on Dark.
• Kenny Omega was on his way to a promo for the ages.... and then he stepped back to the mic and ruined it by saying a lot of extra dumb shit.  I am trying to figure out if Page's blossoming angle with Dark Order takes him off of the Who Shot Mox? suspect list.
• Whomever came up with the booking where Mox got to beat down Omega during his Cleaner intro should get a bonus.  The silhouette of Mox walking up behind Omega and clubbering him to death was tremendous.
• I was happy to see Butcher & Blade get a win, but the poor bastards can't even get a heels standing tall moment without something fucking it up.  So is Lance Archer going to be Death Triangle's plus one since he's not a joiner?  Who will the Family bring in as their equalizer?
• What was up with Matt Hardy's condescending promo?   Is he turning heel?

Edited November 26, 2020 by J.T.

[AxB]

See how Moxley said he had a couple of guys from Philadelphia who can take people out? Is that a tease of some guys coming in, or did he say it just to say it?

[HumanChessgame]

8 hours ago, Custos said:

It’s a step up from Rufio or Smee (...or is it?)

I can’t help but envision a Puke-esque Vince pitch ‘He emanates from Red Hook and he’ll hook ya. That’s the hook, pal. And he’ll get his hooks in you. And you’ll be hooked. It’s that simple, quite frankly.’

Edit in aid of my community reputation at 666: at home, he puts those hooks in the ceiling for that well-hung feeling 

"Hook Redmond" is such a WWE Creative ring name.

[Peck]

2 hours ago, AxB said:

See how Moxley said he had a couple of guys from Philadelphia who can take people out? Is that a tease of some guys coming in, or did he say it just to say it?

I think he said it just to say it.

Separate note, "When you come at the King, you best not miss" is basically the exact same line Finn has been saying for the past 6 months(Prince/King).

[J.T.]

23 minutes ago, Peck said:

I think he said it just to say it.

Separate note, "When you come at the King, you best not miss" is basically the exact same line Finn has been saying for the past 6 months(Prince/King).

In Mox's defense, it's not a very original catchphrase so I wouldn't accuse him of stealing it from Balor.  

It's Omar Little's best line from The Wire which is actually a paraphrased quote from Ralph Waldo Emmerson ("'When you strike at the king, you must kill him.")

Edited November 26, 2020 by J.T.

[Godfrey]

Main event was really fun. Butcher and Blade got a win! I can't hate that even if it's against another team I'm a fan of. Death Triangle have a lot chemistry as a group (better as heels but that will come in time, I'm sure), the inclusion of Lance Archer is a welcome bit of continuity and the resulting chaos is the kind of wrestling show "We're out of time! Join us next week!" sign off I like. I hope we get a fittingly brutal match for these guys.

Silver/Page was a nice outing. Good promo from Uno too, not as much sPoOky voice. I hope Hangman destroys those dorks soon.

Top Flight are really good, amazingly smooth for how young they are. I'm an Angelico fan too, I was into the mat work and submissions in this match. TH2/Young Bucks will be a cool diversion for a while.

[Jiji]

I want to give the people involved in putting together the women's title match last night a lot of credit and I'm sure the ladies themselves for their participation in that process too. While the execution ranged from poor to okay, they did a fantastic job of making me bite on several near falls and a large part of that is the presentation. They had the hype video that highlighted Anna's growth. They played up Shida's record and often times companies will only do that before a big loss. The interference. The chair/kendo stick. The sleeper sold as a death move. They really went out of their way to build Anna as a legit threat and make Shida seem more vulnerable than she's been presented and it worked. They also gave Anna something to move on to with Taya and the Abadon belt lick was great too setting something up for Shida. We've rightly shit on both the talent level and the booking of the women's division but that was a perfect TV title match that seemed important, gave both women shine, and set up the next beats for both parties. More of that please.

[John from Cincinnati]

7 hours ago, Octopus said:

On a related side note: AEW does an interesting job at having characters that are so mixed reviewed (at least on here) of not hitting some but super-loved by others. Kenny being this example, but that fits Cody’s over the top showmanship, Hangman’s moodiness, JR’s sassle-frass, etc. All come across as valid reasons to dislike them, but at the same time are why they connect with others. Good character depth with some of the guys. 

I really don't find it that interesting. I think some of them are trying to do too much and are ending up with muddled, confused personas where people don't know quite what to latch onto. I think they've had this problem with all five of the Elite guys, although it seems Kenny is finally coming out of it firmly as a dork dweeb heel who's lame as all hell. FTR is another act where they're allowed to straddle the line a bit too much, where I wish someone would take hold and say "Get on that side of the line and stay there." 

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

2 hours ago, Andy in Kansas said:

 "Get on that side of the line and stay there." 

I dunno, man.

1) In real life, and in the "prestige TV" era of entertainment, people and characters are very rarely purely good or purely bad. Obviously: Good people and heroic characters sometimes do bad things or make bad decisions. Unlikable people and villainous characters sometimes behave in a merciful or helpful way. It's certainly more interesting, in my opinion. For example, I am way more entertained by Dark Order as a collection of sympathetic goofs who have joined an evil cult than as the mysterious force of darkness they were originally portrayed as.

2) In pro wrestling specifically, pure heels vs pure faces doesn't really work any more. Everyone's a smart mark these days. People are going to cheer for whomever they like, regardless of affiliation or behaviour or story lines. When I'm watching old school pro wrestling, I love it when good guys do good guy things and bad guys do bad guy things. However, I get that it's no longer a necessary part of pro wrestling story telling, just like it's no longer a necessary part of crime drama storyntelling. At one time, a wrestler's ethnicity pretty much defined their character. At one time, an ugly guy could never be a good guy. Pro wrestling keeps changing and evolving. It's not a bad thing.

I still like pure good guys vs pure bad guys, sometimes. And, there are old movies, old TV shows, and a ton of old matches that can scratch that itch.

I think it's OK for AEW to try something different, though. 

Edited November 26, 2020 by El Gran Gordi

[Jiji]

I largely agree but still feel like there's definitely a place for largely unmuddied good vs. evil in wrestling and it can even be in the majority of stories told. But I am glad it's not the only story offered. My preference is more for developed/clearly defined characters evolving over time through adversity, whether they be good or evil. All Japan did this without the use of many or any angles. But stuff like Kofi vs. Bryan was a masterclass of modern babyface vs. heel storytelling. It played up Kofi's real life career arc as the foundation, and in that regard it was more modern or even post-modern and meta, but the match itself was worked just about as purely as you can have good vs. evil (and yeah, I do find it hard to consider Bryan's ecowarrior character an out and out heel even if it was cartoonish). 

[Custos]

Really enjoyable show, bookended with great matches. I do like seeing Butcher and Blade with a W.

Is there a reason why Brodie Lee isn’t around? It was all Evil Uno, and I don’t think he even mentioned Brodie. Or is it like where Lance Archer just disappeared and wasn’t mentioned for a couple of months, like they always need to have a monster on the bench to keep them fresh.

[J.T.]

I am fairly certain that Mr. Brodie Lee is nursing an ankle injury.

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

@Jiji

And... we all knew that, the whole time, Bryan is an in-real-life terrific human being who was doing everything he could to get Kofi over as a true top guy in the company. 

To me, it would have been just fine if there had been a kayfabe-breaking moment at some point when Kofi had hugged Bryan and thanked him. People would have been up in arms about it, but why? 

We all knew the truth of it. None of us really thought that Bryan was evil, even though we all appreciated that he was working that way.

If I see a pic of Pedro Pascal hugging Hafthor Bjorrnson it doesn't exactly ruin the drama of their fight on GoT. If I see him and Giancarlo Esposito clowning around on the Mandalorian set, it makes me no less excited to see their eventual showdown.

Wrestling is different, but we as fans are all too aware of our own suspension of disbelief. We are all smart marks, these days. I don't want AEW to overplay that hand, but I find stuff like Sammy fist bumping Stunt to be satisfying and entertaining as an acknowledgement of that basic fact.

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by El Gran Gordi

[Gordi the former AEW fan]

30 minutes ago, El Gran Gordi said:

 

Second time in 24 hours I've hit "quote" instead  of "edit." Some day, I'll remember.

 

Anyway, I don't wanna overstate my case. It's not like AEW has to be Breaking Bad or The Wire... nor do I want it to turn into a non-stop cavalcade of winking at the camera... but I personally am very happy with the level of kayfabe-blurring and shades of grey that they are at right now. 

Also, I strongly feel that, for the majority of modern fans, booing the bad guy and cheering the good guy is no longer the point. I think it's more, just, having a sense of community. I really got a sense of this at the last live show I attended, New Beginning in Osaka at Osaka Jo Hall where there were so many people decked out in LIJ gear and I automatically felt friendly toward them and they felt friendly toward me as I made the "round eye" gesture at them. Without, say, in any way needing to feel antagonistic toward people wearing BC gear.

Edited November 26, 2020 by El Gran Gordi

[John from Cincinnati]

1 hour ago, El Gran Gordi said:

I dunno, man.

1) In real life, and in the "prestige TV" era of entertainment, people and characters are very rarely purely good or purely bad. Obviously: Good people and heroic characters sometimes do bad things or make bad decisions. Unlikable people and villainous characters sometimes behave in a merciful or helpful way. It's certainly more interesting, in my opinion. For example, I am way more entertained by Dark Order as a collection of sympathetic goofs who have joined an evil cult than as the mysterious force of darkness they were originally portrayed as.

2) In pro wrestling specifically, pure heels vs pure faces doesn't really work any more. Everyone's a smart mark these days. People are going to cheer for whomever they like, regardless of affiliation or behaviour or story lines. When I'm watching old school pro wrestling, I love it when good guys do good guy things and bad guys do bad guy things. However, I get that it's no longer a necessary part of pro wrestling story telling, just like it's no longer a necessary part of crime drama storyntelling. At one time, a wrestler's ethnicity pretty much defined their character. At one time, an ugly guy could never be a good guy. Pro wrestling keeps changing and evolving. It's not a bad thing.

I still like pure good guys vs pure bad guys, sometimes. And, there are old movies, old TV shows, and a ton of old matches that can scratch that itch.

It's OK for AEW to try something different, though. 

I hear you. But at the same time, I'm focused on what they're trying to do (what I'd called "too much") and the results ("muddled, confusing personas where people don't know quite what to latch onto"). To use your own analogy regarding prestige TV, if they were serving me up The Sopranos (or hell, even The Deuce), I'm not going  to complain. But I don't want to see shows or movies try to be that, crawl up their own butt, and fall well short. If all you can make me is a decent Tom Cruise action movie, I say K.I.S.S. and be as good at that as possible. I find that more respectable in a lot of ways than pretending to be something you're not and I'll love you if you can just make me one of those every year. 

And recently, I think we can all point to the Elite doing too much to so-so results, with the FTR-Bucks build probably being the most egregious example. If they want to try something new, that's fine. But all they really did was dampen anticipation for what should have been a slam-dunk build.

I don't quite buy your notion of Dark Order as being representative of an outdated type of pure bad guy. There were more problems there, specifically them being too goofy and low rent for anyone to really buy as a threat in that way. Turn the dial to them being goofy low rent goofs who got sucked into something and steering away from the supposed gravity of the original vignettes and premise and I can see why it's easier for people to get into that. The Dark Order sucking as conceived doesn't really dispel me of any of my notions. They were just horribly miscast for something that was a bad idea. 

As TV analogies go, I hope they're one of those that shows that allegedly gets better mid-way through season two. 

The crime drama thing is fun. I worry that you think I'm asking for something as outdated as Dragnet...

Edited November 26, 2020 by Andy in Kansas

[John from Cincinnati]

32 minutes ago, El Gran Gordi said:

@Jiji

And... we all knew that, the whole time, Bryan is an in-real-life terrific human being who was doing everything he could to get Kofi over as a true top guy in the company. 

To me, it would have been just fine if there had been a kayfabe-breaking moment at some point when Kofi had hugged Bryan and thanked him. People would have been up in arms about it, but why? 

We all knew the truth of it. None of us really thought that Bryan was evil, even though we all appreciated that he was working that way.

If I see a pic of Pedro Pascal hugging Hafthor Bjorrnson it doesn't exactly ruin the drama of their fight on GoT. If I see him and Giancarlo Esposito clowning around on the Mandalorian set, it makes me no less excited to see their eventual showdown.

Wrestling is different, but we as fans are all too aware of our own suspension of disbelief. We are all smart marks, these days. I don't want AEW to overplay that hand, but I find stuff like Sammy fist bumping Stunt to be satisfying and entertaining as an acknowledgement of that basic fact.

I know we all have our own line for where that separation of church and state should be, but the equivalent would be Oberyn and the Mountain hugging after trial by combat, no?