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APRIL 2020 WRESTLING DISCUSSION


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39 minutes ago, sabremike said:

I have always felt HHH's biggest flaw isn't not understanding his own limitations, it's not understanding the limitations of his opponent (Scott Steiner and Goldberg instantly spring to mind).

Steiner wasn't ready physically at that point for that spot but I believe it was a sabotage job by Hunter to Steiner and Goldberg. The Rock put Goldberg over huge in his first PPV, Christian and even Jericho who he has problems with personally put him over. Why is it so difficult when he gets with Hunter.

That NWA world title main event style doesn't work with everyone. He's smart enough to know that. Even now, there is no reasonable explanation for him having the longest match on any card because he feels he must go over 20 minutes to have a good match.

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That whole time when Rock was half in half out of WWE, he'd come back and do business with somebody, go 50-50 as much as he could and try to get them over. Whether it was Goldberg or Jericho or Christian or Hurricane or whoever. Then as soon as he wasn't there, whoever it was Rock had put over would get fed to HHH immediately and decisively.

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21 minutes ago, AxB said:

Also, I know it's sacriligious for a UK Wrestling fan, but I don't like Tyler Bate. I don't dislike him as much as I dislike his two mates, but all three of them just rub me the wrong way. I think it's partly the names. First Moustache Mountain makes no sense when a) they both have full beards, not moustaches and b) everyone else on the roster also has facial hair so it's not actually your Unique Selling Point, is it? That's like your gimmick being that you've got two arms and a head. Secondly, British Strong Style... they don't actually do Strong Style, do they? Not really seeing any Inokiism from Tyler or Not The Way, and certainly not from Billy Two Rivers. They should have called themselves British Sports Entertainment.

 

Oh I like Tyler Bate a lot. Taking the belt off of him for Dunne was a mistake. He felt ready for that kind of babyface mega push, and they took it from him to saddle him in as the little buddy of a tag team. If he’s not there at the top, then he feels kind of worthless to the company. When they did that I thought he should’ve left at that point when his contract was up. They were spinning their wheels with him then, and now.

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1 hour ago, (BP) said:

My favorite individual Hunter performance is probably his match with Shawn on Raw for the title in late 2003. It’s the opposite of all their epic shit, and it has to be the closest Hunter got to perfecting the traveling champion schtick he was going for at the time (it even ends with a Dusty Finish.) One of Shawn’s best post-comeback too. If you’ve never seen it because you were turned off by their long ass gimmick matches it’s worth your time. 

Great match. He shouted that out on Corey Graves' podcast earlier this week when asked about favorite matches of his that people might not think of. Love the initial finish and the pop for it. 

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On the subject of Tyler Bate - I still think that match with Dunne at whatever Takeover was really bad and I’ve got no clue why it’s held in such high regard. Probably by the same people who loved Triple H vs Undertaker at that one WrestleMania.

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1 hour ago, AxB said:

It might be fake.

So anyway, this week's NXT UK was reliving a Walter vs Tyler Bate match from Takeover Cardiff. It seemed like it might be a good match, but they talked about how it went like 40+ minutes, only showed 20-ish minutes of it, chopped it up with commercial breaks (and... brand awareness breaks? Where they just advertise the show you're already watching? Yeah, those) and kept interrupting to have talking head segments with the NXT UK roster talking us through it. So I dunno how good it actually was. Seemed alright. Walter totally Nia Jax'd Bate on a ringpost powerbomb from the floor. Dropped him short so rather than going straight-backed into the post, he was bent-backed into the floor while the back of his head cracked the metal. Looked gnarly. But obviously YNBITR* so it was probably just fine.

Also, I know it's sacriligious for a UK Wrestling fan, but I don't like Tyler Bate. I don't dislike him as much as I dislike his two mates, but all three of them just rub me the wrong way. I think it's partly the names. First Moustache Mountain makes no sense when a) they both have full beards, not moustaches and b) everyone else on the roster also has facial hair so it's not actually your Unique Selling Point, is it? That's like your gimmick being that you've got two arms and a head. Secondly, British Strong Style... they don't actually do Strong Style, do they? Not really seeing any Inokiism from Tyler or Not The Way, and certainly not from Billy Two Rivers. They should have called themselves British Sports Entertainment.

*You've Never Been In The Ring.

WALTER/Bate from TakeOver Cardiff was fantastic. I'd highly rec. you watch the full thing. Loved how they didn't go over board with the false finishes which is a common theme now with everyone trying to put on epics revolving around endless big move kickouts.

The "Strong Style" talk brought back memories of a series of posts on Pro Wrestling Only between some user and everyone else debating if Chris Hero wrestled "Strong Style" or not. That was an awkward debate, but yeah, you are on point. The only Inokism I see in Moustache Mountain is their simplistic ring gear.

Also reminds of IWA-MS running that "Revolution Strong Style" tournament back in the day with Samoa Joe, Roderick Strong, Steve Stone, BJ Whitmer, etc. and them explaining the term "Strong Style" had been bastardized and that what it really meant was guys who hit each other really hard...

9 minutes ago, Casey said:

On the subject of Tyler Bate - I still think that match with Dunne at whatever Takeover was really bad and I’ve got no clue why it’s held in such high regard. Probably by the same people who loved Triple H vs Undertaker at that one WrestleMania.

The match isn't bad as it's a match they've had dozens of time before in front of smaller crowds so it's less impressive if you had seen it previously. They were still new faces to a lot of folks at the time though and they went balls to the wall and everything clicked for them, so of course it got a lot of praise.

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1 hour ago, Edwin said:


The "Strong Style" talk brought back memories of a series of posts on Pro Wrestling Only between some user and everyone else debating if Chris Hero wrestled "Strong Style" or not. That was an awkward debate, but yeah, you are on point. The only Inokism I see in Moustache Mountain is their simplistic ring gear.

Also reminds of IWA-MS running that "Revolution Strong Style" tournament back in the day with Samoa Joe, Roderick Strong, Steve Stone, BJ Whitmer, etc. and them explaining the term "Strong Style" had been bastardized and that what it really meant was guys who hit each other really hard...

If nothing else, that is one plus that WWE has had since claiming some wrestlers work 'strong style"- they DON'T go into it and kind of bastardize it a bit.

Strong style may be big, but whether it was on the indies or Japan, that movement on indie wrestling just really, really sucks as a concept if you think about it. It may be fun to watch, but A style that is built around 'In this match, they're really going to punch and kick each other!" is anathema to good pro wrestling. I mean- if you bill a match as a Strong Style match, great. You just came right out and said "All these other matches on the card are faking it, but THIS match is going to have people REALLY fight!"...and moreover, by the same logic: You just came right out and admitted you're lying to us when you say these other guys aren't really fighting, so  why the fuck should I believe you when you say these guys are really fighting?

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3 hours ago, SorceressKnight said:

If nothing else, that is one plus that WWE has had since claiming some wrestlers work 'strong style"- they DON'T go into it and kind of bastardize it a bit.

Strong style may be big, but whether it was on the indies or Japan, that movement on indie wrestling just really, really sucks as a concept if you think about it. It may be fun to watch, but A style that is built around 'In this match, they're really going to punch and kick each other!" is anathema to good pro wrestling. I mean- if you bill a match as a Strong Style match, great. You just came right out and said "All these other matches on the card are faking it, but THIS match is going to have people REALLY fight!"...and moreover, by the same logic: You just came right out and admitted you're lying to us when you say these other guys aren't really fighting, so  why the fuck should I believe you when you say these guys are really fighting?

I get the point you are making of "strong style" being folks hitting each other hard and being sold as so by some indys, but that's not what it is really which is what I was trying to point out and WWE didn't bastardize it per se, these indys did and WWE just brought it to follow up on Nakamura's "King of Strong Style" gimmick.

"Strong Style" per se was a term Inoki created to define the New Japan style of the 70's in which he incorporated strikes from various stand up combat sports and catch wrestling submission holds and was a style he wanted to use to prove professional wrestling was the best combat sport by fighting real martial artists in worked matches. "Strong stylists" ring gear was simply a pair of boots and black trunks. That's why Inoki, Fujinami, Fujiwara, etc. solely wore black boots and black trunks and they didn't wear wrist tape, kickpads, knee pads or elbow pads.

Shoot style was also a style that grew from "strong style" as it also relied heavily on strikes from various stand up combat sports and a lot of the grappling exchanges featuring catch wrestling submissions holds and these folks were identified with their different ring gear to the "strong stylist" as they wore wrist tape, kickpads and knee pads.

Take folks like Yuki Ishikawa and Daisuke Ikeda. They are guys who trained catch wrestling and threw some wicked strikes. Ishikawa simply wears black boots and shorts. Opposite Ikeda rocks kickpads, knee pads and wrist tape. To some Japanese fans who feel ring gear is a part of "strong style" and "shoot style," this pairing could be seen as a "strong stylist" vs. a "shoot stylist."

Yes, I know the ring gear and the entire "strong style" talks seem silly, but I just thought I'd share that bit as it's been a talking point online for a while.

Edited by Edwin
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2 hours ago, Edwin said:

Fake account, btw.

I just don't understand why people do this. Is your life so fucking pathetic that you have to pretend to be someone else online to get people to be nice to you? 

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9 hours ago, BrianS81177 said:

I just don't understand why people do this. Is your life so fucking pathetic that you have to pretend to be someone else online to get people to be nice to you? 

...yes.

The real tbarrie is going to be some pissed when he finds out.

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12 hours ago, Casey said:

On the subject of Tyler Bate - I still think that match with Dunne at whatever Takeover was really bad and I’ve got no clue why it’s held in such high regard. Probably by the same people who loved Triple H vs Undertaker at that one WrestleMania.

I really liked the Bate/Dunne match and didn't like the Taker/HHH match at all. 

Triple H has bored me silly for most of his career. As a kid I wasn't interested in the blue blood. DX I thought was cool because I loved Rick Rude, thought Chyna was interesting, and Shawn was an entertaining dickhead. Triple H, or TRI, was always just there. He was the Richard Hammond of DX. Shawn was Clarkson, because he was an arsehole but nonetheless over with the crowd. I guess Chyna was James May somehow. Whatever, I hate Top Gear. 

Then suddenly he's main event guy, juiced to the gills. I thought I'd been in a coma or something, I don't think I missed any WWF back then, but somehow his rise to main event guy escaped me. 

The Pedigree is a good move, but I think I took more of a shine to it because a kid I knew called Deadly Dave used it as his finisher on Wrestlemania 2000. 

For at least the last 10 years and maybe more he's presented as this all-time legend, and I just don't buy it. I can't think of Triple H matches I'd go back and watch willingly. 

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Here's the thing with Trips, he's the perfect guy for the WWE punch, punch;   kick, kick; punch, punch style of what they call "wrestling". He looks impressive, he doesn't try stuff that he can't do and leaving aside an inability to really cut a good promo, he's much like a latter day Dusty Rhodes in many respects. You're not going to see a great wrestling match from him, but you'll probably see an entertaining brawl if you suspend disbelief. 

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Ehhhhhhh... I don’t know about that. I’ve seen a few matches of his that I did enjoy, but I didn’t enjoy the brawling. Dusty, and Lawler he ain’t.

But he did have quite a run of good matches with very charismatic top performers prior to the injury. Post that is when things get a lot inconsistent, and not in a good way.

 

Edited by LoneWolf&Subs
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16 hours ago, (BP) said:

My favorite individual Hunter performance is probably his match with Shawn on Raw for the title in late 2003. It’s the opposite of all their epic shit, and it has to be the closest Hunter got to perfecting the traveling champion schtick he was going for at the time (it even ends with a Dusty Finish.) One of Shawn’s best post-comeback too. If you’ve never seen it because you were turned off by their long ass gimmick matches it’s worth your time. 

 

15 hours ago, DreamBroken said:

Great match. He shouted that out on Corey Graves' podcast earlier this week when asked about favorite matches of his that people might not think of. Love the initial finish and the pop for it. 

Thinking about Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H series, it produced matches ranging from great to good and shit like few others have:

Great:

The December 2003 RAW match.

Good:

SummerSlam 2002 Unsanctioned match.

Shit:

Three Stages of Hell at Armageddon 2002.

The worst by far, the Hell in a Cell at Bad Blood 2004 lasting 47 FUCKING MINUTES.

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We did a big thread on HHH's 2000 in 2013. It was the most earnest thing FSW ever did here.

 Here's my review from the Jericho/HHH LMS match from that thread:

Triple H vs Chris Jericho -Last Man Standing Match Fully Loaded 2000.
 
I think the video package before the match is really well done. I don't remember too much of this stuff, to be honest, but one of the knocks against Hunter in general is that he didn't "make" too many people, and I realize at the time the entire internet was enamored with Jericho due to his 98 WCW run, so the idea that someone had to "make" him was probably considered absurd, but that's exactly what Hunter did here. This was set up with Jericho getting one over on him three times before he fell into the numbers game and a Horseman-Style Beatdown. From the looks of it, it was really, really good pro wrestling and allowed for the escalation that made a Last Man Standing match necessary. Hunter let himself be humiliated in order to get Jericho over as a fiery worldbeater, and it worked.
 
I don't think FSW gives enough credit to Jericho in the opening stretch. He brought a real fire and all of the stuff on the outside looked good. The fans completely buy it. If I had any critiques on him they'd be that the mounted punches on the inside were pretty weak and I would have loved to see some selling of the injury after the flying back elbow off the top, especially since that came right before Hunter started on the ribs. That could have been a really great overzealous moment leading to the transition. As for Hunter here, I think he was good at fighting back just enough. I didn't like his clothesline bumps at all. They looked terrible but he more than made up for it on the bump to the outside and the super stylized bump from the shoulder thrust into the ring.
 
I liked how FSW focused on the knee-usage instead of the bodypart work since that was an interesting way of getting at Hunter, but this is a match where it really pays off to talk about the rib-work. It was set up so well in the angle leading up to the match. The transition is pretty awesome as Hunter uses his usual reversal to the back body drop but does it to the ribs instead. They tease a little hope spot of Jericho immediately fighting back, but then Hunter drops him right on the rail and then the stairs and he doesn't really look back. His kicks on the inside are vicious. His shoulder thrusts are good. The image of Hunter rolling Jericho around the ring with the tape is pretty memorable. 
 
When it comes to bodypart work it's all about keeping it interesting and  believable by the person on offense and the selling by the person taking it. Hunter does a pretty good job of varying what he's doing (stomps, knee drops, kicks, knee lifts, the thrusts, the abdominal stretch w/ clubbering, etc), breaking it up a little bit with gimmicks (the tape choking, and the Stephanie slap, the suplex on the floor, grabbing the rope on the abdominal stretch, the ref pushing). I think maybe there are too many gimmicks actually. Jericho does a solid job selling the pain. He's no Ricky Morton but he has both the story to lean on and the fans behind him. He has a decent amount of hope spots that are logical (generally based off of him getting enough space due to rolling into the ring or Hunter arguing with the ref) and okay but really not milked enough to really get the fans really into them. Hunter's cut offs are good though, especially the lionsault counter. I don't think he executed the Stretch well at all but it almost didn't matter too much since it still looked painful on the midsection. It was noticeably weird however. The bodyscissors during the sleeper is extremely smart and plays into both the story of the match and the LMS gimmick (Steph doing the Daniel Bryan YES hand motions at each count is great). 
 
Then we shift into WWE storytelling mode. The key stretch is when Jericho gets up post Sleeper/Body-scissors and shows defiance leading into the super-mean Pedigree and then Jericho getting up again. There are parts of this I like: just how mean the Pedigree is, the crotch chop, Hunter hanging out on the corner arrogantly, Steph being pissed off during the post-Pedigree where she was jubilant on the post-sleeper one. Obviously the getting up from the Sleeper is a tease for the real moment, Jericho getting up from the Pedigree, but I think it might have worked better if he was in it for longer. The one major issue so far is that we haven't had enough time with Jericho in pain. Hunter's two submissions were ones that covered up his face and Jericho's body language hasn't quite been up to task. Anyway, I don't think he quite nails the "getting up at 9" moment with the right body language either. He's just sort of meandering towards the ropes as Hunter rushes out of the ring pissed off to get the chair that he kills Jericho with. We needed some blood out of Jericho's mouth or something here. Were they leading to some sort of ref strike gimmick or something? I forget. It seems weird that arguing with the ref in a NO DQ match would lead to two Jericho comebacks, including the big one; maybe if it was a special ref but whatever.
 
Jericho's low blow is really good for what it's worth. Very glad he went with that and not just a double leg takedown or back body drop. Jericho's chairshot on Hunter is huge, right in the middle of the ring with a giant noise. It had to be big enough to completely turn the match around and I think they frame it well Jericho sells excellently on his comeback and it lets Hunter almost get back in it a few times which is really good stuff. I think Jericho's offense is okay but sort of out of touch for the point of the match they're in. This isn't the part of the match where you want to see so much light, flying stuff, if that makes sense, even if it's done onto a chair. There's a bit of meandering once Hunter takes a powder too, until we get the slightly contrived ribs (execution issue. There wasn't the sense of Hunter aiming him) into the steps spot.
 
I like the consistency of Hunter trying to Pedigree Jericho on hard objects and this time the backdrop works and Hunter takes a big bump off the stairs. The double video monitor shot is pretty silly but it works for a double tease. I kind of like how they entered the match into an environment where the Spanish announce table was already busted.
 
Anyway, they head back into the ring and we get the Walls and the visual tap. I feel like Jericho needed more offense in his comeback to get to this point, to be honest. He had that one stretch but other than the chairshot I wasn't super happy with it. Hunter's shouting and body language is actually extremely effective here as was the rope stuff. We get the big Steph moment to break it, another mini rib transition which sets up the missed sledge hammer spot and I don't totally love how all this is laid out but I do like the high concept at least. It goes back to the over-gimmicked nature of the earlier part of the match. I think that comes into play here too. There are almost too many "moments." It starts diluting everything. Jericho gets to get up from the Pedigree, gets the tap, gets Step, gets a sledgehammer shot in (though one that's ultimately meaningless). etc.
 
And what was up with that kind of lame suplex finish? I think after the two attempts to hit a Pedigree on something, he should have just finished it with one on the table.
 
Alright, I think that Hunter did a lot of good work here and Jericho mostly held his own but both guys' had flaws (micro and macro) that hurt the match. I especially liked Hunter's bodypart focus. Very strong middle section. That said, I think the match was a little too clever for its own good when it could have been tighter and more primal with only a few changes. I'd call it bloated but with a lot of strong elements that didn't fully come together. 
 
I had come in thinking I'd be bored by Hunter's offense and that wasn't the case at all, though he did make some choices I didn't totally agree with. No, if anything the problem was big picture excess. It was still a pretty interesting match.

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2 hours ago, Mr Harms said:

Triple H has bored me silly for most of his career. As a kid I wasn't interested in the blue blood. DX I thought was cool because I loved Rick Rude, thought Chyna was interesting, and Shawn was an entertaining dickhead. Triple H, or TRI, was always just there. He was the Richard Hammond of DX. Shawn was Clarkson, because he was an arsehole but nonetheless over with the crowd. I guess Chyna was James May somehow. Whatever, I hate Top Gear. 

Then suddenly he's main event guy, juiced to the gills. I thought I'd been in a coma or something, I don't think I missed any WWF back then, but somehow his rise to main event guy escaped me. 

The Pedigree is a good move, but I think I took more of a shine to it because a kid I knew called Deadly Dave used it as his finisher on Wrestlemania 2000. 

For at least the last 10 years and maybe more he's presented as this all-time legend, and I just don't buy it. I can't think of Triple H matches I'd go back and watch willingly. 

Spot on.  I also greatly attribute Triple Haight'che's run atop the post Austin/Rock WWE, destroying all challengers (most often far more entertaining than he), as the end of my interest in the product for about 15-20 years.  The legacy of long winded bad promos is mostly what I think of when I think of Paul Levesque.  

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Triple H is fine. Not an all-time great, but not nearly as bad as his detractors seem to think. His in-ring style isn't supposed to be exciting.

I attribute the hate to burnout more than anything - of course he wasn't Rock or Austin, but Rock and Austin also were both around for 7 years to H's 25. He never goes away.

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Shit, I was done with him by like 2003.  The intervening 15+ years didn’t have much to do with it.  If anything, the last 5 being spent as the face of a popular sub-brand and special attraction worker have probably improved public opinion on him, more than anything.

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