NOVEMBER 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION.

[Jiji]

3 hours ago, AxB said:

Wait, is it Avocado on Toast, or are fuckers slicing up fruits and then sticking them in the toaster? How does the juice not make it short circuit? 

You put the avocado on the toast once the bread's been toasted, you bloody savage! I thought you were an English gentleman.

Plus avocados shouldn't really have much in the way of juice. Avocado, cherry tomatoes, and eggs on toast is a delightful breakfast. 

[HumanChessgame]

Avocados are tasty, healthy, and cost about a buck each. Unfortunately the window where they're actually edible lasts about 20 minutes.

[SorceressKnight]

9 hours ago, AxB said:

Wait, Ronda's "millennial man" promo on RAW wasn't intended to turn her heel? Because insulting an entire generation of people with stereotypy abuse, especially when a big chunk of the audience is of that generation, that's not a babyface move. And she boasted about how she can't get hurt by Armbars immediately before getting hurt by an armbar. That's not a boastful heel getting a comeuppance?

In defense there, the big problem for that would be:

Ronda as Raw Champion, or Charlotte as Champion: "I am the champion because I won the match, and by winning, that made me the champion. Maybe there's better women than me. But I won the match. I won this title, and that's why I'm champion." 

Becky Lynch's rise to being the champion: "I worked so hard for so long, and I DESERVE this title! I worked this hard, that means I deserve to be the champion!" "Charlotte won the match." "But I DESERVE IT MORE THAN HER!"

Ronda's title works if you assume the SPORTS part of sports entertainment: In sports, you don't deserve shit. The way you prove you deserve the title is the same: You WIN the title, and by winning it, you prove you DESERVED IT ALL ALONG. If you lose...well, you didn't deserve it, did you? 

Becky's works if you assume the ENTERTAINMENT part of sports entertainment: Wrestling is fake. Titles are props. The champion didn't do shit, the WWE just decided they will be seen as a star for right now. Well, right now we want actress Rebecca Quinn, who plays the character "Becky Lynch", to be seen as a star on this TV show.

Ronda views the title as a championship. Becky views it as a PARTICIPATION TROPHY.

[FluffSnackwell]

Nah. In the context of kayfabe or SPORTS Triple Threats are bogus crapshoots where it pays to be the perfect combination of sneaky and lucky in order to win. Charlotte is the one who wormed her way into the match at Summerslam after having previously lost a recent one-on-one title rematch to Carmella because she hurt her leg like a clumsy idiot trying to jump off the top rope. And if anybody should know the pratfalls associated with going to the top turnbuckle, it's Ric Flair's daughter. (Daddy was 10-for-10,286 in actually executing a flying maneuver and not getting press slammed off the top turnbuckle). 

Becky's beef was always legit. She earned the title shot first. By the way, Charlotte didn't win the one-on-one match the next month. Besides the way they decided to book their SPORTS part of the Smackdown Women's Division was so nonsensical between WrestleMania and Summerslam that you can throw that garbage right out the window and ignore who deserves what according to SPORTS.  Distractions or no distractions, Carmella was going over everybody clean or close enough that there was no longer any point in taking the SPORTS part seriously. Any win earned sans weapon or without the intervention of actual physical outside interference still means you're clever enough to win on your own; while also making the opponent look like an idiot and instantly discrediting them. That's on the creative team, not the fans. If they don't even take the shit remotely seriously, the audience shouldn't be expected to. 

[Brian Fowler]

Except no, not at all.

Becky earned a one on one title shot. Then Charlotte was inserted in it, and won. Becky was rightfully pissed she didn't get the shot she earned. Then she finally got the one on one match, kicked Charlotte's ass and earned the title. Then she kicked her ass again for good measure.

[SorceressKnight]

8 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

Nah. In the context of kayfabe or SPORTS Triple Threats are bogus crapshoots where it pays to be the perfect combination of sneaky and lucky in order to win. Charlotte is the one who wormed her way into the match at Summerslam after having previously lost a recent one-on-one title rematch to Carmella because she hurt her leg like a clumsy idiot trying to jump off the top rope. And if anybody should know the pratfalls associated with going to the top turnbuckle, it's Ric Flair's daughter. (Daddy was 10-for-10,286 in actually executing a flying maneuver and not getting press slammed off the top turnbuckle). 

Becky's beef was always legit. She earned the title shot first. By the way, Charlotte didn't win the one-on-one match the next month. Besides the way they decided to book their SPORTS part of the Smackdown Women's Division was so nonsensical between WrestleMania and Summerslam that you can throw that garbage right out the window and ignore who deserves what according to SPORTS.  Distractions or no distractions, Carmella was going over everybody clean or close enough (any win earned sans weapon or without the intervention of actual physical outside interference still means you're clever enough to win on your own; while also making the opponent look like an idiot and instantly discrediting them) that there was no longer any point in taking the SPORTS part seriously. That's on the creative team, not the fans. If they don't even take the shit remotely seriously, the audience shouldn't be expected to. 

Even then, if it goes to the SPORTS side: Charlotte didn't win the one-on-one match, and that is when Becky proved she DESERVED the title- because she won. If you use Carmella's title reign...well, sometimes in the playoffs the team that wins the regular season gets upset, sometimes another team gets hot at the right time, and the team that won the title isn't necessarily the best team...but they don't have to be to be the champs. 

7 minutes ago, Brian Fowler said:

Except no, not at all.

Becky earned a one on one title shot. Then Charlotte was inserted in it, and won. Becky was rightfully pissed she didn't get the shot she earned. Then she finally got the one on one match, kicked Charlotte's ass and earned the title. Then she kicked her ass again for good measure.

Even then, it's still the same point. 

Becky claimed that she deserved to be the champion before that because she worked so hard and EARNED it.

Charlotte proved she deserved to be the champion because SHE WON THE FUCKING MATCH.  And later, when Becky beat Charlotte in a one-on-one match, THAT was when she earned the title and proved she deserved it all along.

But it doesn't change the fact that, going into the Becky heel turn, it would be tantamount to an NFL team saying "the Patriots ALWAYS win the AFC and that's unfair! If the Patriots were real sportsmen, they would pull out of playing in the Super Bowl and let the Browns be in it because the Browns NEVER get to be in the Super Bowl and that's JUST NOT FAIR!"

[FluffSnackwell]

Using team sports is a cop out since it's one on one. The B-Team was the equivalent to a string of playoff flukes. Besides Carmella beat Charlotte clean in the rematch and Asuka multiple times. Carmella ain't Buster Douglas either. If a random ass dude like Sheamus or Lashley had been the one to end the Undertaker's streak, that's a more fitting parallel to Buster Douglas being the one to finally beat Mike Tyson. She's Micky Ward's brother, Dicky, who claimed he once scored a knockdown against Sugar Ray Leonard when he clearly tripped. Goldberg didn't go from having his streak snapped to immediately jobbing to Disco Inferno in TV Title matches. You give the joke character their token title win and then have them get their ass kicked the very next month so the division can go back to being centered around legitimate performers the audience actually cares about seeing in title matches. 

The best analogy is to just acknowledge that quite often the garbage that happens after WrestleMania and before Summerslam is some kind of bizarro world purgatory or offseason where weird shit happens like prolonged Jinder Mahal and Carmella title reigns. Where a returning chinless pervert can be the focal point of the Smackdown Women's Division instead of building around actual interesting matchups for the title. The real season actually kicks off at Summerslam and lasts through WrestleMania. Although with the recent over-reliance on part timers and decrepit Undertakers, you could make the case that WrestleMania is more akin to an All-Star Game where sadder older versions of legends still make the teams on the basis of name recognition alone. 

[Brian Fowler]

There just isn't a real world comparison to a triple threat.

It would be like New England and New Orleans win the conference title games, but then the Eagles are thrown into the Superbowl with them and win. They damn sure wouldn't deserve it.

[JonnyLaw]

Becky earned a one on one title match through hard work and beating everyone, and Charlotte took that away from her when she was given an opportunity to enter the match immediately upon her return.

Becky earned the championship in the three way match by having the champion pinned for a three and Charlotte took that away by attacking her from behind and stealing her pin.

Becky earned the championship again by beating Charlotte one on one.

The only participation trophy Becky needs is one for beating Charlotte so thoroughly it caused her to snap on Ronda.

[Guest Edwin]

 

 

Flying block!

[Victator]

On 11/18/2018 at 5:02 PM, happjack said:

Wasn’t The Sheik notorious for stiffing pretty much everyone?

I don't recall hearing of him ripping off anyone as a promoter. 

[Victator]

3 hours ago, JonnyLaw said:

Becky earned a one on one title match through hard work and beating everyone, and Charlotte took that away from her when she was given an opportunity to enter the match immediately upon her return.

Becky earned the championship in the three way match by having the champion pinned for a three and Charlotte took that away by attacking her from behind and stealing her pin.

Why should she not accept a title match or try to win said title match by breaking up a pin?

[RIPPA]

18 minutes ago, Victator said:

I don't recall hearing of him ripping off anyone as a promoter. 

This is from Jim Cornette from Cornette's website (ironically from a story praising Sheik)

Quote

One story I had confirmed by Terry Funk is that in the late 70's, with Detroit business way down as Sheik and his crew were beginning to show their age, Terry and Dory Funk Jr. agreed to come into Detroit and work a program with Sheik and Abdullah the Butcher to get business up. Working weeks for very little, they finally popped a big house in the Cobo for the grudge match. The Funks, sitting in the locker room anticipating the big payoff for their labors, were interrupted by Captain Ed George (Sheik's son) bursting in with news that the box office had been "robbed"--all the money was gone! To be fair, in the good times, Sheik was the most philanthropic of all promoters, always ready with cash for a down and out wrestler he'd taken a liking to. He made big money, spent big money, and gave big money away for 30 years. 

BTW - from that same article, Cornette touches on the story that we have been mentioning

Quote

Jim Crockett's NWA was running the 1988 Great American Bash tour across the country, and one stop was Detroit's Cobo Hall. Booker Dusty Rhodes needed a surefire draw, so he arranged for Sheik to return to the arena he made famous, teaming with Dusty against Kevin Sullivan and Dick Murdoch. The event drew a $103,000 gate, the NWA's best yet in the Cobo. As the first match began, my friend Bobby Fulton of the Fantastics, an Ohio native and huge Sheik fan, and I were wondering why he hadn't arrived. Suddenly, the back doors of the Cobo opened up, and a stretch limo pulled right into the arena. The fans stood in unison, ignoring the match in the ring. The driver got out, grabbed a bag from the trunk, then opened the back limo door. The crowds' buzzing got louder, and then--out stepped the Sheik, in a 3 piece suit with no shirt and an Arab headdress, and the fans went crazy as the 62 year old icon walked 20 feet to the locker room door. Inside, mutual friend Kevin Sullivan introduced me to the man, and he SPOKE ENGLISH to me as he complimented the TV promos I had done for the event mentioning him. I even got a picture with him still wearing his famed US Championship belt, and was thrilled for days. It was such a success, Dusty booked him back for a return the next month, but Sheik no-showed, as he had expected a $10,000 payoff for the first match because "everyone knows Sheik gets 10 percent".

http://jimcornette.com/fighting-spirit/sheik-who-ruled-world-fsm90

[SorceressKnight]

3 hours ago, Victator said:

Why should she not accept a title match or try to win said title match by breaking up a pin?

Exactly the point here.

Again, even if Becky later on earned the title by winning the title, it doesn't change the fact: Charlotte won the match, Charlotte won the title. By claiming Becky Lynch EARNED the title, when she did not win the match, it is that problem. "Becky worked so hard"...yeah. She's supposed to be an athlete. If we assume every wrestler's an athlete, we inherently have to assume EVERY wrestler on the roster, from Roman Reigns down to the Singh Brothers...or for the women, from Ronda Rousey down to Dana Brooke, has worked really hard to get to where they are today. They're athletes, of course they did.

Hell, going that far, it is actually kind of arrogant to claim Becky Lynch working so hard matters so much more: Yeah, she did. So did Charlotte, so did Carmella, so did Asuka, so did Naomi, so did the IIconics, so did Mandy Rose, so did Sonya Deville, so did Zelina Vega. What makes Becky Lynch working so hard so much more special than all of them? Every athlete at a top level worked really hard to get there or they WOULDN'T BE THERE...and if one wrestler worked really hard, and they still lose, then either they didn't work as hard as they thought, this other wrestler worked harder, or this other wrestler's just plain BETTER than them- and any of those results say "you don't deserve to win."

[FluffSnackwell]

It isn't sports though. Gary Glitter isn't running onto the field affecting the outcome of soccer matches the way James Ellsworth did the allegedly historical first ever Women's Money In The Bank match. 

[SorceressKnight]

1 minute ago, FluffSnackwell said:

It isn't sports though. Gary Glitter isn't running onto the field affecting the outcome of soccer matches the way James Ellsworth did the allegedly historical first ever Women's Money In The Bank match. 

And that's my point as well. It's entertainment about sports. By saying "one person deserves this", when they didn't win it, it's like saying "wrestling is fake, the title's a prop, I don't care about the storyline, I just want to see this actress playing a wrestler hold the prop instead", and that's wrong too. 

[dragonzombie]

They should make another belt for the women that is under their the top women titles. Like Women's ic or whatever.

[Victator]

58 minutes ago, FluffSnackwell said:

It isn't sports though. Gary Glitter isn't running onto the field affecting the outcome of soccer matches the way James Ellsworth did the allegedly historical first ever Women's Money In The Bank match. 

 In the context of the TV show WWE produces, it is a sport, as much as they dance around it.  WWE is just shit at writing about it. 

You also are making a fallacy in comparing wrestling to soccer. The closest analog to wrestling would be MMA or Boxing and those do not have multiman matches. 

Which most fans and people in the business can't comprehend writing wrestling in a realistic way. Which would be in the case of Ellsworth taking the briefcase would mean one of two things. 

1. The match is restarted right there and Ellsworth and Carmella are kicked out. 

2.  There is something in the rules that allows a surrogate to grab the briefcase. 

But really WWE is just shit creatively. 

[Victator]

1 hour ago, D.Z said:

They should make another belt for the women that is under their the top women titles. Like Women's ic or whatever.

They should be merging belts or at least rename one of the titles. They don't know what to do with their existing belts. 

[John from Cincinnati]

If we really want to talk about how WWE should be more like real sports, someone should close that weird loophole in the Money in the Bank contract. It's been 13 years already! 

[Victator]

46 minutes ago, West Newbury Bad Boy said:

If we really want to talk about how WWE should be more like real sports, someone should close that weird loophole in the Money in the Bank contract. It's been 13 years already! 

The only time the Money In The Bank cash in really bugged me was the Rollins one. Where he cashed in during a match. 

This could have been mitigated if the announcers acted like it was abnormal and later explain HHH had altered the MITB contract for Rollins. Instead its treated as normal and something that was always known. 

I don't even need it to be like "real" sports. But for them to have an internal logic and stick to it. 

Hustle would do wacky sci fi shit, but they stuck to the rules they established. WWE can't even remember three months ago in an era where rewatching is easier than ever. 

[Niners Fan in CT]

Are the Bella Twins gone again? 

[Ultimo Necro]

Vince, his bizarro creative ruleset, and his yes men are super irritating for the most part but secretly I kind of love it.  Especially when his meddling eventually throws up an anomaly that he doesnt know how to deal with, which is what the women’s division is right now.  It’s going to be interesting to see where this goes between now and Mania.

As an aside on Vince and his crazy ways, I’ve always wondered how HHH got AJ Styles onto the main roster, while everyone else had to go to NXT, without Vince or Kevin Dunn or whoever noticing.  I can only imagine Vince saw AJ had worked WCW and was like “WCW? well he must have worked with Hogan, he knows what he’s doing, let’s get him on TV”.

[Web Conn]

Jake Roberts was on Joe Rogan's Podcast today

 

[AxB]

On ‎11‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 4:18 AM, mattdangerously said:

Joey Janela's pants just exploded.

Has anyone asked Ken how come he wasn't at the UFC's 25th Anniversary show? Because you would have expected him to have been there, and he wasn't. Royce Gracie wasn't there either. It was weird.