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AUGUST 2018 WRESTLING DISCUSSION.

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Now waiting for people to retroactively condemn Dave for fat shaming "Junk Food Dog".

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1 hour ago, Fallacy! said:

 

You've got to be kidding. I feel like that's a pretty common talking point.

Fat Braden Walker in a singlet is still a meme like a decade later. 

Fat Braden was an internet meme after he was released but I don't remember it being a conversation beforehand, I do remember people saying the singlet looked goofy. But my point is dudes like Bray are obviously coasting and not much is said.

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I look at it this way.

A. Meltz said something terribly stupid

B. Meltz (rightfully) got called out on it big time

C. Meltz apologized(albeit perhaps awkwardly at first, but I’ll still take that over a cookie-cutter apology) and then followed that up with subsequent sincere-sounding apologies. 

It’s over with to me at least.

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So after reading all these tweets from Renee and Charlotte and Tyler Breeze and Seth etc.they aren't wrong. But I would like  to know where these reactions were when WWE took $50M from Saudi Arabia and told the women to stay home? 

Yes, WWE Evolution was created after the fact. That doesn't make it okay.

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1 minute ago, Niners Fan in CT said:

So after reading all these tweets from Renee and Charlotte and Tyler Breeze and Seth etc.they aren't wrong. But I would like  to know where these reactions were when WWE took $50M from Saudi Arabia and told the women to stay home? 

Yes, WWE Evolution was created after the fact. That doesn't make it okay.

They’re still going back to Saudi Arabia every year too.

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14 minutes ago, FlaeBlazer said:

They’re still going back to Saudi Arabia every year too.

Yes and the women will be told "sorry sis, you gotta sit this one out" for profits..  so yes now is the perfect time to say fuck WWE because they've done plenty of shitty terrible things to women and are now acting holier than thou, it's sick.

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If talking the Saudi show - there is also the fact that none of them seemed to mind that one of their coworkers wasn’t even allowed into the country 

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I also don't really get the criticism of the "b-b-but what about Saudia Arabia" sort. 

First of all, it's a facile argument; whataboutism isn't a response to the original arguments that everyone made. We had those discussions about Saudi Arabia and whether or not the wrestlers should refuse to go, but they have nothing to do with the discussion of Meltzer's remarks re: Peyton Royce's body. 

If the implication is that the wrestlers who spoke out on one, but not the other are merely being hypocrites, and therefore their arguments re: sexism are somehow lesser, that's a classic ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. Hypocrisy itself is immaterial to the points that people are making about Meltzer's remarks. 

 

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2 hours ago, Rick said:

Tye Dillinger rushing in to hammer Dave yet being in hot water himself for cracking rape jokes just shows how toxic and hypocritical these social media pile on's have become in instances like this.

Imagine a guy standing up for his girlfriend 

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It's wrestling. The only good, sane people are Tito Santana and Molly Holly. 

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How attractive Dave feels breast implants are is meaningless and he and his sidekick are jackasses for steering the conversation in that direction.

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The thing with this whole controversy is that it shows that the WWE roster and employees was just looking for a reason to lash out at Dave. Even after the apology, they kept dogpiling on him.

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30 minutes ago, Smelly McUgly said:

If the implication is that the wrestlers who spoke out on one, but not the other are merely being hypocrites, and therefore their arguments re: sexism are somehow lesser, that's a classic ad hominem tu quoque fallacy. Hypocrisy itself is immaterial to the points that people are making about Meltzer's remarks. 

Several conversations have spun out of the original topic of Meltzer's remarks

One of them was people feeling that it was interesting that this was the time that wrestlers (now both in and out of the WWE) are finding the voices now to dunk on Dave when perhaps they could have done so at other opportunities.

There were opinions on both sides of that. How much does one challenger their employer? etc...

I am not going back through the last three pages to say as an absolute "no one" but I disagree with the notion that everyone is using that to say that the hypocrisy is being used to lessen the shittyness of Dave's comments

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Dave criticized Buff's implants too, right? 

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8 minutes ago, RIPPA said:

Several conversations have spun out of the original topic of Meltzer's remarks

One of them was people feeling that it was interesting that this was the time that wrestlers (now both in and out of the WWE) are finding the voices now to dunk on Dave when perhaps they could have done so at other opportunities.

There were opinions on both sides of that. How much does one challenger their employer? etc...

I am not going back through the last three pages to say as an absolute "no one" but I disagree with the notion that everyone is using that to say that the hypocrisy is being used to lessen the shittyness of Dave's comments

I never said that everyone is pointing out hypocrisy to lessen how inappropriate Dave's comments are. I'm just saying that, "Where were they on Saudi Arabia" is irrelevant to their comments on what Meltzer said (though in fairness to at least one poster who discussed this very thing, Niners Fan explicitly says that the wrestlers have a good point about what Meltzer said, so Niners is obviously not trying to ignore their point because they were quiet on Saudi Arabia). 

For what it's worth, I understand why they were silent on Saudi Arabia; they are in a career with very little competition at the level  where you actually can make a living in the business, and there is an oversupply of workers compared to employers in the market (the reverse-welders problem, I guess). 

I also think that it's likely that some wrestlers in the company want to dogpile Meltzer, which again doesn't mean that any salient points that they make are wrong. I do appreciate that Dave genuinely apologized. We're all going to be insensitive or rude sometimes, as that is the human condition. The best we can do is apologize and try to do better. 

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It does seem like the wrestlers responding fall into three categories

- ones who want to have an open and constructive dialogue

- those jumping on the pile

- those responding because they think it’s the “cool” thing to do

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2 hours ago, Matt D said:

It's wrestling. The only good, sane people are Tito Santana and Molly Holly. 

ricky-steamboat.jpg

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There were a number of comments from wrestlers when they weren't booked for the Saudi Arabia show.  It wasn't blunt, but there were a number of "What to do when you're not booked" or similar posts on insta and such the day of the show.

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3 hours ago, odessasteps said:

Now waiting for people to retroactively condemn Dave for fat shaming "Junk Food Dog".

 

I first read that in 1986 and I thought it was bullshit.

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Charles had the perfect take about this on PWO:

“I agree that the Dave-Peyton Royce interaction itself was what should happen in cases like this. He said something hurtful and offensive, the person hurt confronted him, and he issued a public apology. (He admittedly bungled that by calling her attractive again. Then he apologized again.) But now it's turning into something where Prichard, Russo, and Bischoff cultists, WWE apologists who don't like that he likes NJPW matches better, and more general Twitter trolls are using it for their own gain, and WWE wrestlers are piling on to get brownie points with company management and make it seem like they don't talk to him even though they do. (Charlotte in particular has probably known Dave Meltzer since she was a little girl, so she's not fooling anyone.)

The reason I'm likely to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one (while also thinking this hopefully puts an end to Dave's cheap Twitter gimmick) is that this is a guy who has championed women's wrestling for more than thirty years. Joshi was sort of viewed as this Harlem Globetrotters wrestling-like thing by Western fans (and wrestlers) until Dave started praising the athletes as being better than the men. His coverage of it affected the way that men worked. Before all of this surfaced, he was asked about why Aja Kong didn't work out in the WWF and pointed to her working style scaring old white men stuck in their ways. I'm not sure there's anyone else who has spoken out more about the treatment of women in wrestling than Dave Meltzer, although no, that doesn't give him a license to just say what he wants.

Some people are worth our contempt. Dave, as much as he deserves this public smack down in some ways, as it's the unavoidable end result of a Twitter gimmick that's beneath him, doesn't. Wrestlers are as spineless as ever when they go overboard to join the Dave pile-on and won't dare say anything critical of their own company's business practices in public. I used to sympathize with their position in that sense, but now I don't.”

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Also, regarding Saudi Arabia, Corey Graves spoke out about it on Twitter or Instagram and got in trouble for it.

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How does Charlotte knowing Meltzer since she was a kid make it an automatic that she is play-acting in this case?

 

People change, situations change.  I've knwn people since I was a kid and don't like a number of them...?

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I too really hope this is the end of gimmick troll Dave on twitter. Fucking idea sucks. Some of the shit he has to deal with is of his own making.

6 minutes ago, Craig H said:

Also, regarding Saudi Arabia, Corey Graves spoke out about it on Twitter or Instagram and got in trouble for it.

Sad that he was the only one.

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